Why we don´t need Haven

[Kaemik]

I think when Haven makes it in, it should be a fully voiced interactive tutorial like the hero's guild from Fable 1. You go to various stations on the island, talk to various instructors, and those instructors teach you how to do melee combat, archery, magic, taming, gathering, refining, crafting etc.

So like the melee station would be something like this:

"Phaw. You don't look like much to me but maybe there is more to you than meets the eye. Pick up that wooden sword, step into the ring and show me if you're worth a damn. Drag the sword in the rack over there into your inventory then click it to equip it."
*After you equip the sword*
"Take a few swings at that dummy to get a feel for the weight of the weapon. Click and then move your mouse in the direction you want to swing. Left and right cause you to swing from the left and right side while dragging up does an overhead attack and down does a thrust."
*After a swing or two*
"You can also thrust by holding the left control button as you attack. If you care to there is the option to use a similar bind for overhead swings in your control settings."
*After a couple of more swings*
"You can charge an attack by holding it longer. Charged attacks deal more damage with maximum damage being dealt right after the full circle flashes"
*A few swings later*
"Alright that's enough, you're only going to learn so much striking a dummy. Aquilla over here has been voluntold to be your sparring partner. I want you to try parrying some of his attacks. Parrying and blocking works much like attacking except you right-click instead. If you see him preparing to swing from the right, then right-click and drag to the right. If he goes for a thrust right-click and drag down. If you block right as your opponent swings it causes a parry and no damage will be dealt. If you hold your block too long it will be a regular block and some damage will get through."
*After you block five attacks*
"You're not so sorry after all. Now I want you to use what you've learned of attacking and parrying to break past Aquilla's guard. Pay attention if you see him move to parry a blow so you can swing from a different direction."
*After you land a few hits*
"You're improving nicely. Now use everything together. Land three hits on Aquilla over there before he can land three on you to finish your training."
*After you lose*
"Have I taught you nothing?! You won't survive out there like that. Try again!"
*If you win but also take a hit*
"Well, I guess you know which direction to point it at least. Go talk to the weaponsmith to learn more about the properties of a good weapon to further your training. Speak to me again to review any part of this lesson if you care to."
*After a flawless victory*
"Hah! You sure showed Aquilla! Go talk to the weaponsmith to learn about the properties of a good weapon. Take this voucher to make sure he uses some of his better materials on it. You've earned it. Speak to me again if you want additional melee practice."

Fully voiced isn't an "it would be nice" kind of thing here. It's really going to sell the experience and draw new players into the game.

But rather than paying a bunch voice actors big money to do this. Do an event where you announce the lines, give a few tips on how to achieve the audio quality you're looking for, and allow users to submit the lines. You could easily get all the lines needed for a free month's sub or special cosmetic/title for each contributor whose content gets used. Even without prizes, I'm almost certain if you put the lines out to the community you'll get all the audio you need by community members who want their voice to be part of the new player experience.

Until you can get something of that quality in. Yeah video guides work fine. I'd rather watch a video guide on YouTube than read an info-vomit in-game. But I'd rather use a voiced interactive tutorial than a video guide.

 

[Herb]

It's really not compatible to compare a 10 year old game which was so broken that it needed a new area for starters, to a new game where they have the chance to make it close to perfect when sadly they just fear losing new players and want to build a safespot.

Let's take the closest hardcore game right now which would probably be Tarkov, the only guides you will have are videos, guides on the forums and help from players in the society, even though it's a FPS and not open world yet it's gritty as shit and relentless yet maintains a high playerbase, the learning curve still comes from playing the game.

But apparently it's easier to build up a safe cozy area where you are followed through every step by an NPC.

How will a haven keep new players from leaving? The fact is it really won't.

On release there will be a high amount of players coming in, there are impulse buyers who just buy the game based on the steam video and pictures where a decent percentage will find out the game isn't for them and drop off, and then there's people who research or read up first to see if the game is for them and buy it and even a percentage of these people there's those who will drop off.

If it comes to the sad state of MO2 where haven is implemented, it should be less than 4 hours tutorial, but let's hope SV realizes that a game which isn't broken doesn't need a haven, and abandons their work on it and focuses on making the game good instead of wasting time on that thing.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

Haven should exist, but the time spent there should be hard-capped / limited. Players need to be forced off the island. I don't think people should be allowed to just 'stay'.

 

[Rhias]

I think the real issue with starting on myrland is not "hardcore PVP", but griefers.
MO1 had an issue with griefers. Any experienced MO player knows how to defent themselves against them. So they mainly sticked to bullying new players, over and over again, until they quit.
New players didn't even experience the potential MO offered.

 

[Kaemik]

There need be no cap in time spent in Haven, just a cap in the value of the things you can acquire there, and a limited amount of things to do. Players should be able spend as long as they want there learning the game. And if someone REALLY wants to have a character that just lives in Haven forever... fine. Let them. What's it hurting?

Just like the Wurmians who stayed in Golden Valley back in the day. A few quirky vets that want to live in the newb zone eternally are great help to new players trying to learn the game.

 

[Skydancer]

I avoid PVP at all costs. Haven was a nice place, but in the way it was implemented I agree with OP - it doesn't teach people what MO is, and the likelihood of people leaving after they hit the mainland is high. Gameplay mechanics and loops should also speak for themselves as much as possible too to eliminate the need for tutorial island. That said, Runescape's tutorial island is the single greatest tutorial island in gaming history of course.

I do believe all of the +'s of Haven as an introduction can be achieved in the core game and eliminate the need for it entirely but there are also some things haven can add uniquely.

If Haven is implemented this is what it needs:

1. NO special flags - keep the rep and flags identical to the primary game
2. NO transfer of assets from Haven to the main game - write something into the lore to explain this to players up front
3. NO global help chat - this is not a global chat styled game and is a crutch that should not exist. Takes away from face-to-face interactions
4. After leaving, Players should be given a starter kit of bare essentials instead, or offered different kits like the Tindrem tutorials used to do. Players who go through haven know enough about their preference to pick the kit they want and this prevents resource hoarding.
5. Each profession/role should have its own interactive sub-tutorial so that they can be broken down into their core elements and processess. Give some kind of reward for each of these that jumpstarts their foray into the profession/role (enough to make a couple of things etc). None of these things carry over to the main game anyway
6. Make it clear at the very beginning that upon leaving, each player will be able to reroll their clade/appearance if they have race regret/envy after trying their hand at each of the core game elements and playstyles. I know a lot of people who played quite a bit, got race/build envy and deleted and rerolled without realising that they get a token to do just that without losing all their hard earned skills and attributes
7. Allow experienced players to be able to return and act as a guide in some capacity should they so choose (would go completely naked, perhaps a particcular priest in either large captial of Tindrem or MK can open an ether portal that goes right to haven priest) - given assets cannot travel to or from Haven, this wouldnt necessarily be of any value to the person transferring over. Add in a safeguard where even a single murder count gets you banished back to the mainland, or perhaps unable to res on haven with a murdercount, preventing unsavory types from going there to grief

Here's what I think Haven did well:

1. Funneled new players into a single hub
2. Surrounded by enough basic resources to try their hand at a bit of everything
3. Fledgling flag enabled safer adventures (but healing magic needing blue really screwed with this)
4. Easier for new players to group up and adventure together when they are in a single hub
5. Small enough land mass to learn to familiarize themselves with the world without a map
6. Well-placed activities/dungeons outside of the main hub connected by roads
7. Ruins served as a good vantage point to survey the entire island from
8. The quest line gave a tangible goal (but was poorly implemented)

And here's where I think it did poorly:

1. Fledgling flag fails to prepare people for the main game
2. Many people did not comprehend the tutors lessons, picked up the free skills and then just barraged help chat endlessly
3. Not enough people knew about or utilised the neutral combat cave to come to terms with pvp. It was too far from town to be practical
4. Assets transferred to Tindrem Bank and players were allowed to carry items on the boat as well
5. Players in help chat gave terrible and factually inaccurate advice all the time; stuff that they've obviously been told, never questioned and passed down to the next generation
6. Help chat in general allows for griefers to prey on groups who would often eventually go blue to heal each other among other things if people coordinated groups in help. This is a negative but it's also a lesson to never telegraph movements globally in a FFA game so that is a pro

 

[Tehmudjin]

Haven was needed since every noob starting point was camped by griefers. I agree that it would be optimal if griefing could be prevented so that we wouldnt need Haven, but until we have solutions for that, Haven isnt a bad idea.

 

[Keurk]

Haven was needed since every noob starting point was camped by griefers. I agree that it would be optimal if griefing could be prevented so that we wouldnt need Haven, but until we have solutions for that, Haven isnt a bad idea.

sorry i am confused, you talk about steam release stricly right? cause after that, all the character i created here or here never been griefed on starting area (nobody tried is what i mean)
Also, do not forget the big stagnant portion of the year with no pvp and boring politics before steam release arrived. Most mo pvpers were blood thirsty as hell and i bet many of us would act differently with the playerbase than we did 5y ago.

One good thing Haven can bring is network wise : it could greatly help with queue and temper the server on loginwhen the game goes persistant and many people try to log in at once.
Haven is not a bad idea, it is one of the many way they thought about implementing a tutorial in mo, after they already tried couple things.
But in my opinion, the tindrem guarden tutorial ,with more complete stuff,more polish, would be enought.

Mini tutorial videos pannel, like in Rift interstellar , is extremly good and ergonomic as well . Advantage is you can open the window, noob or vet, and consult thoses tutorial at any needed time

 

[Amelia]

Agree, Haven split the already small MO1 population. MO2 will have same numbers more or less, so no thank you.

 

[Vakirauta]

As mentioned some time before - just add some ingame guide and 'encyclopedia' in main menu. Works in other games and I liked it in early MO1

 

[Aesorn]

lol Eldrath / Zeal trying once again to change the vision of the game...... yikes

 

[Eldrath]

lol Eldrath / Zeal trying once again to change the vision of the game...... yikes

Quite the opposite.

Have you considered why Mortal Online 1 did not have a Haven or a PvE server for the first 8 years of it´s existence?

 

[Aesorn]

Quite the opposite.

Have you considered why Mortal Online 1 did not have a Haven or a PvE server for the first 8 years of it´s existence?

Listen I don't think Haven doesn't have any cons, and I agree there should be a time limit, but I think you need to consider part of the reason MO1 never had a big playerbase and part of that reason is because new players never had direction and were not prevented from extreme griefing or PK from the start...... Eitherway Henrik very rarely changes his vision of the game so im glad just like your plea for no guards this post is a waste of your time.

 

[Dominatrixx]

Agree, no Haven plz.

 

[Yeonan]

Is there any tangible detriment to having haven?

You're not dividing the player base, if someone stays in Haven to avoid the pvp, they wouldn't stay in the mainland. They'd quit.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

Listen I don't think Haven doesn't have any cons, and I agree there should be a time limit, but I think you need to consider part of the reason MO1 never had a big playerbase and part of that reason is because new players never had direction and were not prevented from extreme griefing or PK from the start...... Eitherway Henrik very rarely changes his vision of the game so im glad just like your plea for no guards this post is a waste of your time.

Indeed, the likelihood of SV changing course before tragedy is narrow. Seeing people complaining about "griefing" immediately following the implementation of guards gives little satisfaction as it's the obvious result.

Haven wasn't part of the initial design, it was implemented as a desperate move to retain players after years of criticism and a dying population. An attempt at a relatively finished and polished product built into a buggy clunky mess. Get em hooked before they realize how brutal the game actually is. It's manipulative, bordering on dishonesty. at best. More to the point of contrasting in vision, it's a hand-holding carebear island for people with sub 75 IQ. That is not a population a veteran fueled, sub-based game like MO should cultivate without considerable forethought.

Again, MO1 is abandoned, if the low-stress carebear adventure version of MO was a significant draw, we'd see pop grow as the murder rate is almost zero. Obviously, we don't see that. It's not the murder, it's the fact that the game isn't fun. Focus on fun, not removing the murder, obviously.

Haven should exist, but the time spent there should be hard-capped / limited. Players need to be forced off the island. I don't think people should be allowed to just 'stay'.

This is how fractures go. Desperate people accept a bit of crap in the hopes it won't do much damage, even though it lacks justification, is a shit idea, proposed at the darkest moment of MO's past. They find some sort of compromise with it and hope for the best with willful blindness.

Just look at this thread. Maybe one or two voices speak to the need for learning how to craft a weapon or use WASD. It's about something deeper that few will speak to directly right now. Some MO veterans and new players that have never really enjoyed core aspects of the game are finding a lever to tear at the foundation. Let's not kid ourselves, without full-loot pvp, MO1 and likely 2 is not even worth talking about let alone playing. The true waste of time is thinking this type of bad thinking can be limited or contained. The pro-vision (full-loot pvp, hardcore, one persistant world) types will never be stronger in their articulation and influence than now. It may already be too late as this type of suggestion (a Nooby Island) would have been laughed off the forums when MO was stronger.


Henrik needs to shake off this weakness and not let it infect MO2. It would be great to suggest that he should ignore sunk cost, just keep going on a bad idea because he's already begun, but that fallacy is particularly dangerous in business.

Pivot. Take what you've learned from the island, incorporate what's helpful and abandon the project before the insanity spreads. Focus on polish, AI, and rich systems throughout the game. Put a 75 IQ on the minimum requirements.

 

[Charizard]

There needs to be a haven, and new players should not be griefed. Eve online has it right with their high security zone.

I honestly preferred the insta-kill guards

 

[Godkin Veratas]

Is there any tangible detriment to having haven?

You're not dividing the player base, if someone stays in Haven to avoid the pvp, they wouldn't stay in the mainland. They'd quit.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. People stay and attempt to change the game rather than embrace all aspects. This has happened with many other games as described elsewhere in the thread.

Nave has now been colonized with such individuals, and in a moment of weakness, Henrik caved. It started with a better tutorial, has grown to an island, next, better towns, quests, items, level design, etc. As if a game with 150 players can afford silos. They will request and require upkeep and develop their own interests that demand the devs very limited time and resources. This is a direct contrast to the stated vision of one game world. it should be stopped now. Imagine your favorite place in Nave underdeveloped, buggy, unfinished, your combat style unbalanced, your magic not working as intended, crafting busted, and they are working yet again on the Noob Island. It's not cost free by any stretch.

Yet, we don't see any devs articulating this anymore, so it may already be too late.

 

[Charizard]

henrik should look at these numbers though https://steamcharts.com/app/252490

Rust is more ruthless/trolly than MO1. How come their game has so many players? Why don't they get grief out?

Because the game is fun, high skilled, interesting, runs well, and has engaging gameplay.

That's the key to retaining players to your game. Not hand holding them.

 

[Yeonan]

Again, MO1 is abandoned, if the low-stress carebear adventure version of MO was a significant draw, we'd see pop grow as the murder rate is almost zero.

If its was still being developed, and wasn't scheduled for shutdown at mo2 persistence, you'd have a point.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works. People stay and attempt to change the game rather than embrace all aspects. This has happened with many other games as described elsewhere in the thread.

Nave has now been colonized with such individuals, and in a moment of weakness, Henrik caved. It started with a better tutorial, has grown to an island, next, better towns, quests, items, level design, etc. As if a game with 150 players can afford silos. They will request and require upkeep and develop their own interests that demand the devs very limited time and resources. This is a direct contrast to the stated vision of one game world. it should be stopped now. Imagine your favorite place in Nave underdeveloped, buggy, unfinished, your combat style unbalanced, your magic not working as intended, crafting busted, and they are working yet again on the Noob Island. It's not cost free by any stretch.

Yet, we don't see any devs articulating this anymore, so it may already be too late.

I dont see a tangible example of why Haven will be a detriment.

The "pulls dev time away" would apply to anything you might personally think isn't a priority.

Mo1 was buggy and unfinished long before Haven.