Why we don´t need Haven

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Eldrath

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This is an appeal to push back and/or abandon the concept of “Haven” for Mortal Online 2. I will lay out 3 connected arguments that will show that dedicating development time and resources to this will have a negative impact on the game.

1.

Most games do just fine without a tutorial, let alone a dedicated tutorial “landmass”. All of us – including @Henrik Nyström – are a gamers and know games that work fine without a tutorial. There are many ways to teach the mechanics of game that require less work by a small indie developer.

What is needed? Responsive, correct and helpful tooltips on all parts of the UI. An UI that gives you feedback on why things are not working. Smooth animations, smooth activation of skills.

On top of that I would suggest a hint system that pops up whenever you do something for the first time. These should be well written and easy to understand. They also should be gathered in a help window so that players can open them up later (in case they just click them away).

Again, many games just as hardcore to learn as MO2 have these kinds of systems.

2.

If 1. Is true (learning a game does not require a tutorial) than the reason for Havens existence must lie somewhere else. After pondering this for a while I think that people

  • Think MO1 was and MO2 will be uniquely more complex and harder to start in
  • Feel that Learning should be done in a peaceful environment
The first point seems flimsy when I look back at the dozens of games I have played over the years. The initial difficulty in Mortal Online 1 came down to bad UI and bugs. Everything else was not extraordinary difficult to learn. Mastering is another matter, but that is not what we are talking about with newcomers.

It is insulting to new players to assume that they are somehow to stupid to grasp what we have understood perfectly well in the past. Gamers new to Mortal Online 2 are no less educated or thicker than those already here.

3.

B. is the real reason why Haven was created. The thought is that a PvE server is needed to keep players in the game that would otherwise quit because of open PvP. I think this is dangerous and false. By creating what is essentially an PvE experience with optional PvP you teach the noobs a different game from what MO2 is supposed to be. Open PvP and full loot are essential and the most important aspects of the game to grasp QUICKLY. Player interaction is what drives a sandbox, cutting off the new players from the rest of the population will make the game seems less interesting than it is.



In summary Haven will not help new players learn the game better and it costs development resources SV does not have. Down the road creating a space solely for PvE will also create Trammel like aspirations in the population.

My suggestion:

Abandon Haven and put that time into polishing the UI, fixing the world and coming up with ways for the game to intuitive and easily readable.
 
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Eldrath

Well-known member
Players are already creating tutorial videos. Use that. They are giving you their time and energy for free. It is not like you have tons to spare SV. Don´t burden yourselves with something unnecessary.


I will use the second post to gather any suggestions that will improve the readability of the UI, the game world, improve understanding of the mechanics, improve on feedback you receive for your actions. Feel free to post these here, or link thread you have found useful in that regard.

 
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Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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One thing I noticed with Haven in MO 1, is that Haven became the game.

If you wanted to play MO 1 right now with other players, you'd probably stick to haven.
 
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Grisù

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Sep 3, 2020
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Agreed.
Haven is probably going more likely to teach new MO2 players bad habits, than how to really play and enjoy the actual game itself.

But honestly i don't really know what is the SV's playerbase target this time, so I'm forcing myself to be carefully indifferent on this argument right now.
 

Godkin Veratas

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Jul 3, 2020
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Agree completely.

Walls killed MO1.

Haven will kill MO2.


If a lack of PVP Risk made MO more enjoyable, MO1 would be flourishing right now. There are no risks and players can run around the world and do what ever they want undisturbed.

Fix systems, make combat, magic, and pve fun. Haven is a dodge that undermines the purpose of the game.

Games that have been produced in the last 10 years that are just as, if not more complex than MO don’t have any tutorial, let alone a separate game world for new players. It’s a terrible idea that has already cost too many man hours. It isn’t part of the original design for a reason, it’s stupid. It promotes a care bear play style that will compete in an already small and under developed population. Probably too late to abandon, developed for years with zero success in retention improvement. Hard to overstate not only the futility, but also the risk. Just like walls. Hopefully they listen.
 

Darran

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May 28, 2020
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Haven should exist, but it shouldn't be a place you stay to play like in MO 1 and only work as a short tutorial for how the game works. The user experience of the tutorial needs to be greatly improved too, as it was quite shit with the UI, waaay too long distances etc in MO 1. SV got feedback from new players that Haven greatly improved their starting experience, so I think it should stay in.
 

Zbuciorn

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Jun 3, 2020
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It is insulting to new players to assume that they are somehow to stupid to grasp what we have understood perfectly well in the past. Gamers new to Mortal Online 2 are no less educated or thicker than those already here.
Yes,it may feel like an insult or waste of subscription time to be put in some sort of tutorial area without an option to skip it.
 

Amadman

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May 28, 2020
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A padded room.
I hate to be the one to disagree but MO always had problems retaining new players.

This alone proves that MO does need something like haven.

Besides, it also can be instanced for any rushes that could come from release or patches. That would save new and old players lots of frustration at those times.

I am also pretty sure that they are already working on Haven if they are planning on having it. So dropping it now would be throwing away any work they have already done.
 
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Amadman

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May 28, 2020
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A padded room.
I even have my doubts about that.

A populated starting area would probably give a better first impression than an empty one.

So having some players that want to stay there for extended amounts of time would not necessarily be a bad thing.

The game outside of haven just has to offer a lot more so most players will leave to experience the rest of the game.
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
Time in Haven should be limited e.g. to 12 or 24 hours of play time. Most veterans will run to the tutors and then change to Myrland immediately.
I get the argument. Should they focus their precious development time on those 12 to 24h though? Create a whole landmass instead of polishing Myrland?

Personally I think that time could be spend better.

This alone proves that MO does need something like haven.
No, it proves that the game was broken and made a terrible first impression. Tutorials are not gonna change that, but a polished game might.

You also avoid all the other pitfalls I pointed out.
 

Godkin Veratas

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Jul 3, 2020
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The game outside of haven just has to offer a lot more so most players will leave to experience the rest of the game.
This is a glimpse into the future collapse of MO2.
This cancer will spread unless it is cut out and soundly repudiated.
End Haven now, before this nonsense multiplies.
 

Grisù

Member
Sep 3, 2020
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I even have my doubts about that.

A populated starting area would probably give a better first impression than an empty one.

So having some players that want to stay there for extended amounts of time would not necessarily be a bad thing.

The game outside of haven just has to offer a lot more so most players will leave to experience the rest of the game.
I always appreciate your quality posts, even if I'm on the opposite side, but this time I fear for the reverse of the medal.
Imho long term Haven experience will lead to have a shifted Day-0 for Newbies, contributing to feed the gap between them and Veterans at release.

New Haven players first day impression in Myrland could be highly compromised, like they were joining an unwiped release game.
Their choice btw.

Even further I fear shadows of Trammel vs Felucca could be upon us, story tells.
 

Theodosius

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Jul 24, 2020
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What about players new to the genre? Players new to the concept of REAL hardcore loss? Players that want to dive into other complex systems of MO like basic extraction and refining? More things need to be explained than just how to slash someone with a sword.

I think it’s safer to assume the average player is an idiot and needs to be taught everything while giving people the option to just outright skip it.

The difference between MO2 and MO1 needs to be player accessibility and retention. Or it’s just a clock ticking down until it’s empty like MO1.
 
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Meridian

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Jun 11, 2020
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I think we need it for the sake of new players. I want to MO2 to succeed, not just a world full of pvp vets. New player experience is crucial for longevity. Throwing them to the snakes rather than easing them in will hurt. However, 48 hours then the boot out of haven comes.
 

Icegoten

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Jun 12, 2020
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We need a Haven that gives the players little in game examples of what they can do kind of like when they had the tutorial in Tindrem Gardens and the gate keeper would tell about different skills. I think Haven should be smaller than it already is and more limiting. Let there be a single area that just has some pirum trees, a patch of rye, and some pigs so chefs can test the very basics of cooking with the tools. Have a single area of donkeys, dogs, cats, and razorback for tamers. Have a pond for fishing. Rocks for whatever they are used for. Then have 4 little dungeons one at each cardinal direction with the town in the center.

I don't think players need to have access to a large variety of resources and exploration. I feel like that should all be for Myrland and encourage players to start, get some skills learned, crafted, and go fight in the dungeons then off they go. The only thing they should be able to take with them off the island is what they are equipped so no one is encouraged to farm things there.
 
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Keurk

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i agree fully with the idea and all the points.
I just think they already spent a bunch of ressources into developping it for MO2. So i think it's too late
I hope haven is heavly restricted and people are forced to join the real world quite fast
 
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Blood Thorn

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Jan 1, 2021
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Even further I fear shadows of Trammel vs Felucca could be upon us, story tells.
While I completely agree that Trammel/Felucca helped to killed UO, lets not forget that the launch of EQ1 also had a significant impact on the UO population decline because it offered an alternative to what was then the only game in town.

That said, lets go back and examine why Trammel/Felucca even came to be - a broken Risk vs Reward. Many RPKs would rather fight players they can easily win against and acquire 'phat-loot' then risk fighting more competent players and getting killed. There's nothing wrong with that, but players play games to have fun and constantly being a target and losing your stuff is not fun. That's why a majority of the UO population moved to Felucca was because they were tired of getting killed by RPKs. Every time they wanted to adventure there were murderers just waiting to ambush them. So when the opportunity came for them to enjoy aspects of the game they were not able to enjoy because of RPKs, they took it. Thus, the population on Felucca had no reason to ever go to Trammel again. That was the mistake the UO devs made. They swung the hammer at a broken scale in an attempt to fix it, but something had to be done, because they were already losing players who were tired of being victims. The result was PvPers quitting the game because they lived in a mostly empty world, and PvEers quitting the game out of boredom from a world with little risk.

That is what the devs in EvE got right. A well thought out, balanced, Risk vs Reward approach to resources and game play (until super-caps came into play, but that's a different story). Players could live and play at a level of risk of their choosing.

Back to the topic at hand: New players should have a place to play and learn the game. A place safe from those who prey on other players. Skills and resources should be capped. Players who want to increase their risk should be able to move to the larger cities, where their risk is higher but better resources and items are more plentiful. They should probably even be able to higher NPC/Player guards as the move around the area outside of the town. Not immune to danger, but safer than if they ventured out on their own.

The vast majority of the world though should be hostile, with no protections for players other than that which they bring themselves so that players looking for the ultimate excitement and challenges can find it.
 
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