Final thoughts on Mage before the Testing phase is over and it all counts

[AssassinOTL]

I've been discussing back and forth with some knowledgeable players/testers. and I've come to the occlusion that Objectively the numbers just don't add up for mage and that's why the mage class feels like it suffers compared to the other classes, something is off with the numbers. First i thought that it was the base damage, then the damage amplifiers. but i'll leave it up to the community and the team to make sense of the numbers. here's the raw numbers and comparison to the highest in each category Melee to Magic.

Thursar Melee str 121 36% damage bonus Highest Alpha damage and DPS in the game also able to get +20 raw Str to put damage potential to the moon

Huegar Mage Int 135 200% damage bonus (mental offense) Falls short on Alpha Damage and DPS compared to above class and takes 100+ damage when dressed for efficiency

Now while the Fat mage is getting nerfed the Thursar is piled on with buffs... and logically i cant see why they have capped damage for the mage with clearly on paper higher stats and gives up more mobility and damage mitigation than any other class, and stats because they have to go age 62 and still not even reach the highest peak in damage, but is seen as the class that needs nerfs as the Thursar clade sees the lions share of buffs. SV you need to do better and look at the numbers. it doesn't add up

now do i need to see buffs? no but make the in game stats reflect what you're trying to show or those comments of snake salesman will ring true, because there's a blatant scam here. The story the numbers sell you are not true to what the damage potential is, or the scaling is off, and needs to be looked at and compensated for what the player give up to get

 

[Nefnate]

Objectively the numbers just don't add up for mage

Can you provide statistical data? Any graphs, collected info, any experimentation that has been peer reviewed?

Thursar Melee str 121 36% damage bonus Highest Alpha damage and DPS in the game also able to get +20 raw Str to put damage potential to the moon

Huegar Mage Int 135 200% damage bonus (mental offense) Falls short on Alpha Damage and DPS compared to above class and takes 100+ damage when dressed for efficiency

How about the fact that you're comparing:

• Melee Range Damage
  • that can be blocked or parried easily by any player, even a naked mage with a torch
  • that needs to be physically next to the target
    -
• to, Long Ranged Damage
  • that can only be Resisted (RNG and build dependent, or
  • Reflected, which requires another mage
  • can be used from the safety of distance

Without accounting for the differences between them?

Now while the Fat mage is getting nerfed the Thursar is piled on with buffs...

I remember seeing some small attribute buffs to the Thursar a couple of patchs ago. Can you elaborate or provide citations toward the claim of "piled on with buffs"?

SV you need to do better and look at the numbers.

I return to my original comment: Can you provide statistical data? Any graphs, collected info, any experimentation that has been peer reviewed? Hopefully that account for the extremely different ways the damage between a melee DPS and a ranged magic DPS is utilized, and the tools we have for countering each?

now do i need to see buffs? no but make the in game stats reflect what you're trying to show or those comments of snake salesman will ring true, because there's a blatant scam here.

This just feels fallacious. You haven't provided clear data, or even clearly explained what you think would be a good "stat reflection", and then use some weak fearmongering at the end by referencing apparent 'comments of snake salesman' to try and coerce the team into doing what you say, even though what youre saying is not clear or factually based at all.

In conclusion: I am not trying to hate on you here, however, this is extremely tired as a subject from you. I have seen so many threads from you like this that I stopped reading them. If you are serious and want to be heard, do the work and commit the time to provide coherent, statistical information so that the players who read, and then the developers who read, can actually have something to work with. Not opinion, not false numbers, not by comparing things directly without considering their overt differences.

I'd like to see what you're trying to say. But these posts and your methods are not doing the job.

 

[LordMega]

Give me some spells I can parry or block and I'll get in discussions about buffing damage numbers. You can't compare a Thursar's damage to a mage's when I can just sit here, right-click and negate the Thursar's damage completely all day long. Apples and Oranges. Mage damage kills me faster than anything else by far. Melee can't kill me unless there is more than 1, or I am in a very vulnerable positon (no stam to parry or something).

 

[AssassinOTL]

Can you provide statistical data? Any graphs, collected info, any experimentation that has been peer reviewed?


How about the fact that you're comparing:

• Melee Range Damage
  • that can be blocked or parried easily by any player, even a naked mage with a torch
  • that needs to be physically next to the target
    -
• to, Long Ranged Damage
  • that can only be Resisted (RNG and build dependent, or
  • Reflected, which requires another mage
  • can be used from the safety of distance

Without accounting for the differences between them?


I remember seeing some small attribute buffs to the Thursar a couple of patchs ago. Can you elaborate or provide citations toward the claim of "piled on with buffs"?


I return to my original comment: Can you provide statistical data? Any graphs, collected info, any experimentation that has been peer reviewed? Hopefully that account for the extremely different ways the damage between a melee DPS and a ranged magic DPS is utilized, and the tools we have for countering each?


This just feels fallacious. You haven't provided clear data, or even clearly explained what you think would be a good "stat reflection", and then use some weak fearmongering at the end by referencing apparent 'comments of snake salesman' to try and coerce the team into doing what you say, even though what youre saying is not clear or factually based at all.

In conclusion: I am not trying to hate on you here, however, this is extremely tired as a subject from you. I have seen so many threads from you like this that I stopped reading them. If you are serious and want to be heard, do the work and commit the time to provide coherent, statistical information so that the players who read, and then the developers who read, can actually have something to work with. Not opinion, not false numbers, not by comparing things directly without considering their overt differences.

I'd like to see what you're trying to say. But these posts and your methods are not doing the job.

I've been talking to someone who can be seen as the most Objective, i've done my testing and have my findings, i have not shared them because there's a clear hate for me on this tread and in the community for being the one to bring light to the problem, and honestly i'm done trying to show them the numbers when SV has the numbers and know it's true. I Spoke to Spetznat and he's compiling some clips to do his version of it in a video but it takes time. there's a lot of variables and types. but the numbers dont lie, Yes there are some things to take into consideration, and thats why even as objective as i'm trying to be, i felt like my info was biased, and asked for a second opinion and when he does it i'd like to see his results, but he's a busy man paryting hard, and covering updates

 

[AssassinOTL]

Give me some spells I can parry or block and I'll get in discussions about buffing damage numbers. You can't compare a Thursar's damage to a mage's when I can just sit here, right-click and negate the Thursar's damage completely all day long. Apples and Oranges. Mage damage kills me faster than anything else by far. Melee can't kill me unless there is more than 1, or I am in a very vulnerable positon (no stam to parry or something).

again that has nothing to do with scaling on Stats in a class, clearly the scaling on int at 135 and Str 121 are biased without even getting to that, you're way down the road i'm talking Scaling without going into the battle variants (X)

 

[Valoran]

Nefnate hit the nail on the head with this one, and I have nothing else to add to it other than complete agreement and a "what he said".

 

[AssassinOTL]

A couple good suggestions from a Experienced Veteran mage

buffs are not the focus but here are his thoughts

 

[AssassinOTL]

Nefnate hit the nail on the head with this one, and I have nothing else to add to it other than complete agreement and a "what he said".

There is no He said She said when you look at the numbers 135 INT with 200% damage modifier = 270

121 Str with a 36% damage modifier = 164.56 and with the +20 raw strength its 184.56

the math is there and not biased

 

[AssassinOTL]

there are so many variables that are put on the Mage class it's dizzying just going through them all and non on all these unrestricted classes. the flatening of the Int curve.

the only way to really balance it all out is to put the same on all the other classes, for example, Make Str affect Swing speed, the bulkier you are, you shouldn't be able to swing as fast as a Dex fighter with lower Str. and for archery you should have an interrupt with a 50% chance when taking damage

Besides, archers should be interrupted by damage and release the arrow they have pulled back
Archers will buy purify potions more and mages will be even more required during dungeons
Then make concentration the only way to negate interrupts in general
Archers will cry but it’s balanced

 

[Tzone]

Everything Ive said about this dude is true, hes just spamming now. Mage is super strong and needs nerfs. Im a mage main saying this.

Outburst is more damage then archery on armor while being super easy to land hits. psy is super weak and you need to get at least 100 of it for any reasonable benifit. Tlash is a 15% resist chance at 90 psy while still doing 40s.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Thursars are the least played race so I'm guessing that's why they get buffed a lot

 

[Speznat]

ther eis no damage bonus modifier for archery. xD agressive stance, or the damage bonus doesnt effect archery at all. its melee combat only and close combat only.

 

[Fargus]

Add useable equipment for mages in the vein of staves, wands, and offhand spellcasting focus like orbs and censers. Nerf damage across the board an amount that would need some tweaking but 20 to 30 present is where I would start. Then have the new item class add stats like mana discount, more damage, faster casting. and concertation bonus or other unique effects from enchantment likes collecting spirits from slain mobs in the living world,

The largest problem I have with mage is how completely free regearing is compared to any other playstyle is, dying cost next to nothing you can pick up regs for less than a gold and decent mage sets on the broker Ive found in bakti fab and meduli for 50 to 75 silver a piece. While the armor piece prices is just anecdotal objectively armor pieces are no where near as important for mages as they are for other classes.

Reducing damage then added it back and then some with tiers of mage equipment would allow for more experimentation by SV without completely destroying the balance and get them out of this corner they have back themselves into.

 

[Veradey]

Its still too early to completely complain about balance with the only 'complete' school is melee. Archery still needs fletchery/poison which could have a huge impact. Magic is still missing schools and projectile mechanics as well as resists incorporated into armor materials.

 

[AssassinOTL]

ther eis no damage bonus modifier for archery. xD agressive stance, or the damage bonus doesnt effect archery at all. its melee combat only and close combat only.

yeah the Archery equivalent would be Weakspot where Alvarin can ignore Armor on headshots and body shots sometimes and it does do more damage than outburst Tzone just decides to leave that out

 

[AssassinOTL]

Its still too early to completely complain about balance with the only 'complete' school is melee. Archery still needs fletchery/poison which could have a huge impact. Magic is still missing schools and projectile mechanics as well as resists incorporated into armor materials.

Too Early? it's 2 weeks from Full release when the game is going into persistence, if anything it might be too late, when it hits their pocket they will find out the hard way, that's the only way someone stubborn will learn, you cant tell paying customers that they should wait and pay, and it will get better, you lose the one chance you get on a good first impression. wait for the YT First impressions to come out, they wont wait till the classes are "finished"

 

[[CTX] Contractor]

Just because Bill Bonty runs a pure mage guild and calls it MANA does not make him an authority on magic by any means.

If I go make a guild called STAMINA and write guides on melee, am I now an authority on melee? No.

What makes anyone an authority on anything is both a contribution of skill and time. Many people can lack one or the other, or both.

Magic is insanely strong. Anyone who plays against or with a good set of players knows this.

Mages are so strong that they are focused first in fights between players 9 times out of 10. Because guess why? They are the lifeblood of their team. No mages? Good luck staying alive with bandages unless you're an EU player on a veela and playing at the highest skill ceiling in the game right now.

The numbers don't add up because you don't add things up properly. I'm tired of seeing thread after thread after thread about this. Magic is better then fine, and if anything it's too good right now. But I feel like it's super impactful and have no issue with it remaining as strong as it is.

Like many in this thread and previous one have stated, Magic is only stopped by one thing; a Magic reflect. Which only a mage can provide.

To end my statement I will provide a check list of pros to a mage, and I will forego the cons as they are obvious in most regards:

- Ranged.
- Heals.
- Reflects Magic.
- Counters Magic.
- Can not be blocked.
- Hitscan.
- Cheap.
- Always in demand.
- Versatile (i.e. different Magic schools)
- Blocking (Unlike their MO1 counterpart)
- Faster Fatmages
- Can utilize low strength weapons (i.e. Daggers)

Now quote me and tell me they suck because they get hit for 50 even though they can do that damage at range.

 

[Kaemik]

Not going to comment on Thursar FF vs. Fat Mage but I will say that Thursar feels the weakest out of all the races. I believe there are far better reasons to run Human, Alvarin, and Ohgmir if you want to be a fighter. Which is especially sad given that Thursar are non-viable mages/hybrids. They're not completely useless dependent on playstyle, but they're the least recommendable race. So I can see why the buff is happening.

FF vs. Fat Mage is a whole different issue IMO. Lets not criticize positive racial balances just because we are upset about role balances. If I agreed mages were underpowered (Which I have no strong opinion on this issue currently), I'd say the way to fix that issue is to buff magic. Not keep Thursars underpowered.

 

[AssassinOTL]

Not going to comment on Thursar FF vs. Fat Mage but I will say that Thursar feels the weakest out of all the races. I believe there are far better reasons to run Human, Alvarin, and Ohgmir if you want to be a fighter. Which is especially sad given that Thursar are non-viable mages/hybrids. They're not completely useless dependent on playstyle, but they're the least recommendable race. So I can see why the buff is happening.

FF vs. Fat Mage is a whole different issue IMO. Lets not criticize positive racial balances just because we are upset about role balances. If I agreed mages were underpowered (Which I have no strong opinion on this issue currently), I'd say the way to fix that issue is to buff magic. Not keep Thursars underpowered.

Hey Kaemik glad you chimed in, you might say Thrusars are the weakest of all the races, but the fact of the matter is they are the highest damaging class in game to boot right now. i'm talking about some of the best players that can hop on it can go on a 7 tournament win streak with little to no contest unless they have someone of equal skill that can fight them. it is unfortunate that they cant be a hybrid, but i cant imagine how much better it would make the class. They do one job really well and that's outrageous damage, you can test it on a dummy or a naked and their potnetal output is kinda scary

case in point, this video is just to show the unmitigated damage, because magic doesnt have mitigation so we can look at the base damage before mitigation;

weather friend or foe that's a hard hit even in proper gear a hit to the head is devastating, and if you're in mage robes you don't have much protection from it. You can say it's underpowered while you hide behind the best armor you can get your hands on because it synergizes well with your class mages can get 2 shot by Thursars if they are in the armor provided to them. and i've never seen magic 2 shot someone from max health with fully stated characters.

i just want to bring to the attention of some of the frustrations of some players seeing their class going to the dumpster, i know everyone wants to make me out to be the bad guy but there's a clear difference in the output vs the cost. no matter how you spin it, weather it's ranged or not, magic is more of a mid range class, the long range class is archery.

here are just some of the mages that dont have the time to put stuff in the Feedback section, just wanted them to be heard as well so its not me talking to people that disagree with me



really some good ideas from a different perspective and thought the dev team should hear this type of feedback



it's not just a few mages that think there's multiple issues with the way it's the only class restricted the way it has been for the past few months they have really done some amazing work and put a lot out, but some of the feedback is that there's no fun in it, it doesnt feel fulfilling, or it feels like the class is being held back, and no matter what they say they feel like they are being gaslighted into thinking they are playing the class wrong, but the design is just pulled from an Isometric game, which at the time maybe that design could work, or in MO1 where Dex was king, the class is lacking in this iteration. or you are pidgeonholed into one style of play, which sucks the fun out of it, does it need buffs? leave that up to the dev team after they look at the numbers, do other classes need to be looked at? again up to the devs just need to put the info out there, and let them handle it, i'm just the messenger.

 

[Tzone]

Bill wears this stuff then complains about archery which on foot is the most gimped playstyle. Like Im farming bandits solo as a mage and its ok, A bit slow. Im PvPing on mage

Yeah like what other people said thursar is a weak race. Diffidently not meta. Human is the weaker in PvP of the 4 races with oghs being busted with abilities and veela being the fastest which makes it the best for a lot of people.

As a mage I am faster then any thursar and can defeat all their damage with parries. The thursar will stam out compared to my 95 dex veela mage. If I get the jump on the thursar then I win. If I dont then I kite untill I can gain distance. They either give up or I get enough distance to cast a spell as I regain stamina.

Thursars are so bad I dont even want to heal them, they just soak up so much damage that healing them takes so much mana that can be saved for Tlashes or healing other players. Thursars cant dive mages so idk why a mage would whine about them, they will just get tlashed by 3 different mages and if he lives he wont have the speed to peel out of the back line.

Ecumanical is so strong and more schools are to come.