Murderers and Consequences

[Skabsticles]

The game is realism in a sandbox mythical medieval world right?
All through civilizations there has been Law and order with punishments.
Murderers in game don't have harsh enough consequences.
First the bug needs fixing asap to report the murderer because it feels like justice isn't severed every time you are killed at present.
The Murderer really need to go pure red and not able to go into towns unless the towns are lawless or player run pk towns.
If a murderer dies after a predefined number of mindless kills say 10? They should have fear of rezing to soon when they die and have to stay as a ghost until there murder counts are gone. Then they might think twice before killing some one especially big groups of gankers who go mindless killing without fear of any thing.
If they rez as a red player they should get stat loss and skill loss. It need to force them to be a ghost untill they repent and can re-join the civilised players again.
Its not a good look for players new to the game when they get murdered and nothing is done about it.

 

[Fargus]

You know what fuck it let's go for realism, permadeath for everyone. Or how about if you are murdered and no one is around to witness the murder then there is no murder count cause in real life you can't report your own murder.

 

[Skabsticles]

You know what fuck it let's go for realism, permadeath for everyone. Or how about if you are murdered and no one is around to witness the murder then there is no murder count cause in real life you can't report your own murder.

Perma death isn't really an option in this type of game either because of only being able to create 1 character but I see what you are trying to say but in real life you dont rez either! lol So If I rez which is the mythical part of the game then I can report my own murder? This seems reasonable to me.

 

[Tzone]

The game is realism in a sandbox mythical medieval world right?
All through civilizations there has been Law and order with punishments.
Murderers in game don't have harsh enough consequences.
First the bug needs fixing asap to report the murderer because it feels like justice isn't severed every time you are killed at present.
The Murderer really need to go pure red and not able to go into towns unless the towns are lawless or player run pk towns.
If a murderer dies after a predefined number of mindless kills say 10? They should have fear of rezing to soon when they die and have to stay as a ghost until there murder counts are gone. Then they might think twice before killing some one especially big groups of gankers who go mindless killing without fear of any thing.
If they rez as a red player they should get stat loss and skill loss. It need to force them to be a ghost untill they repent and can re-join the civilised players again.
Its not a good look for players new to the game when they get murdered and nothing is done about it.

You come into the discussion with the premise that in medieval times murders faced harsh consequences.

But that's only if the kings court knew you were a murderer. How does the guard know that I killed some dude? He didnt see it, not one saw it, if I killed every one there.

Also in medieval times people who died faced harsh consequences. Like they were not able to respawn. You didnt come here to have a good faith argument. The arugment here is that not since you can magically report your own death that you should also magically punish the winners of PvP more. Its that you should not be able to report your own death.

Game is already punishing enought for PvP. Especially when the loser has almost no consequences. Why are all these horrible anti PvP ideas only sayins we need harsher consequences for people winning at PvP but not for the losers who lost almost nothing?

You just dont want their to be PvP which is already killing the game with the idiotic anti PvP mechanics they have.

 

[Khulan]

Game is already punishing enought for PvP. Especially when the loser has almost no consequences. Why are all these horrible anti PvP ideas only sayins we need harsher consequences for people winning at PvP but not for the losers who lost almost nothing?

You just dont want their to be PvP which is already killing the game with the idiotic anti PvP mechanics they have.

I see this argument all the time here and on the Discord, and it always makes me wonder: "Do these people think there is only one type of PvP in Mortal? If not, do they really believe that every type of PvP is healthy for the game?"

I think that casting a one-size-fits-all blanket over PvP is an error in judgement. There certainly are types of player killing that should be harshly punished. Just like there are types that should probably not be punished at all.

Let's take a step back (if you have the emotional and intellectual ability to do it) and remember that there are people on the other sides of these comments, and that their concerns - even if poorly presented - are rooted in emotions. I totally understand that the overarching style of the Mortal community at large is 'edgy emo angst-ridden teenager', and that not caring about your fellow players is 'cool'. And this is fine to roleplay in a fantasy setting, but in reality, it isn't a good look on a person.

There's a very good reason that you don't criticize and berate people in real life. Why do it in an online game? Why not try to help where you can? Isn't this supposed to be fun?

 

[Skabsticles]

You come into the discussion with the premise that in medieval times murders faced harsh consequences.

But that's only if the kings court knew you were a murderer. How does the guard know that I killed some dude? He didnt see it, not one saw it, if I killed every one there.

Also in medieval times people who died faced harsh consequences. Like they were not able to respawn. You didnt come here to have a good faith argument. The arugment here is that not since you can magically report your own death that you should also magically punish the winners of PvP more. Its that you should not be able to report your own death.

Game is already punishing enought for PvP. Especially when the loser has almost no consequences. Why are all these horrible anti PvP ideas only sayins we need harsher consequences for people winning at PvP but not for the losers who lost almost nothing?

You just dont want their to be PvP which is already killing the game with the idiotic anti PvP mechanics they have.

Nope I am not saying punish pvp at all I am saying punish murderers who get away with greifing without consequences.
You could also be a King and be a murderer and wipe people out but there is always consequences in history and could/should be in this world to.
There is a whole big world in mortals online 2 and massive sandbox that isn't built just for murderers to greif and kill and get away with it.
Murderers ganking anyone and everyone how ever you like to put sugar on it isnt a good thing in any game and isnt pvp its mindless ganking and greifing.
Ultima Online had the right Idea how to deal with pk's and they did it well and thats why I also liked the order/chaos system in uo it was done very well to.

 

[Khulan]

I'd be fine with random skill loss on death from the action side for PKs who are griefing.

The only problem is that I can't see a way to automatically differentiate griefing from reasonable PvP. I wonder if it's even possible.

My best advice to you if you are having problems with getting griefed would be to be more social and make friends. A tungsteel greatsword is a great weapon, but a single ally is far more effective and a lot cheaper.

 

[Tzone]

@Skabsticles
@Khulan

PvP = PvP
Dying to give MC/Rep loss = Griefing.

Hows UO doing? Not well ok. Hows Rust doing? 100k peak daily, wow. Which one has more casual players too? Rust.
Why no punishment for people who die repeatedly in order to make the guy you beat them in PvP loss something?

The most toxic players Ive experienced in any game are the carebears. They get so mad even though they lost nothing and will spend hours left in their session to grief the person that won the contested spot. Punish people for defending them selves which is what these anti PvP mechanics have done already. It nothing to do with dying in a game, its that they just cant stand someone else doing something to them and it makes them angry.

People who call open world PvP greifing and that there needs to be more consequences just want the NPC and game to win their fights for them. Give more consequences for blue players instead.

If you are getting emotionally hurt over pixels (and easily replacable pixels at that), thats weird. Seek a therapist or something.

 

[Khulan]

If you are getting emotionally hurt over pixels (and easily replacable pixels at that), thats weird. Seek a therapist or something.

It's not weird at all. It's normal. Ever see a child try to get past a platforming level that is too mechanically difficult for them? Ever see a pro player make a misplay in a tournament? Ever see ANY PERSON EVER play a video game and have trouble?

People become emotionally invested in their hobbies, and telling them that it isn't appropriate to behave like basically every human being ever isn't constructive or intelligent.

I agree on the open world PvP thing though, and I actually agree that carebears should toughen up a little. But that's just me. In the end, humanity and therefore the playerbase of Mortal is varied in their opinions, feelings, and ability. There should be a place at the table for everyone. Not just for you and people like you.

 

[Skabsticles]

@Skabsticles
@Khulan

PvP = PvP
Dying to give MC/Rep loss = Griefing.

Hows UO doing? Not well ok. Hows Rust doing? 100k peak daily, wow. Which one has more casual players too? Rust.
Why no punishment for people who die repeatedly in order to make the guy you beat them in PvP loss something?

The most toxic players Ive experienced in any game are the carebears. They get so mad even though they lost nothing and will spend hours left in their session to grief the person that won the contested spot. Punish people for defending them selves which is what these anti PvP mechanics have done already. It nothing to do with dying in a game, its that they just cant stand someone else doing something to them and it makes them angry.

People who call open world PvP greifing and that there needs to be more consequences just want the NPC and game to win their fights for them. Give more consequences for blue players instead.

If you are getting emotionally hurt over pixels (and easily replacable pixels at that), thats weird. Seek a therapist or something.

The usual comment is "carebears" If you get derogatory that will upset people you hope.. Its very childish way to try get a point across in favour of murdering and doesn't fill me with confidence to get the right discussions going on the subject.
I have played many survival games so loosing stuff even a horse doesn't phase me one little bit or make me angry its expected.
Ultima online is a very old game now which went on for years and years. It got changed by trammel but felucca was still great fun they ruined balance with power scrolls etc and graphics aren't up there now are they.
Mortals online is very reminiscent of uo and Henrik likes to say it is and it does feel that way, its the game I have been waiting for for years but it also has issues which could make the world better.
Did you ever play chaos and order in uo? Maybe your not old enough to have played uo your comments dont sound as if you are.
You could fight till your heart is content against each other without consequences, you would show up as orange to each other and it was great pvp fun! Also the other players could still be murdered if you chose to do this to but there was consequences. All I am saying is punish murderers who constantly gank/greif and kill people who aren't really a worthy opponent they are just there for fun/fulfilment of needing to be cruel and call it pvp. Its not pvp its mindless ganking and greifing without consequence.
I played a murderer for years in ultimaonline but I also accepted the consequences of the choices and would accept them in mo2 as well.
I understand there will be an option for guild vs guild to this will create many great pvp memories.
Its just my opinion.

 

[Doom and Gloom]

I also think killing needs consequences to be meaningful, it would get pretty boring fast if you wouldn't have a real risk. If you die you just replace your gear from the bank which takes like 10 mins to make. And rinse and repeat? This isn't dark souls where you just press "invade" constantly and stop playing through the storyline (and even in DS you can choose to play offline to avoid this). Meaningful consequences make the game better for both the murderer and the murdered, we don't have to pick a side and be like "killing is bad and should be minimized" or "not ever taking part in pvp is bad and should be minimized".

We should look at what makes the PvP most enjoyable for ALL, not just one side. So that there are reasonable measures to :

1. Avoid getting killed if one chooses to (but not guaranteed)

2. Get into situations where you can kill someone (unexpectedly, stealthily even, but so that the target has a real chance to fight back)

3. Have a reward on a successful kill (consequences on killing increase the average reward, as for example, the targets are carrying more loot if they feel safer).

4. Indicate players' alignment to other players (if you are the best murdered in a game, it's going to feel better that people know it is you and maybe you get some respect, rather than remaining anonymous-ish as is the current system), and also if a person wishes to declare themselves as a friendly helping soul, they should be able to signal that to other players in some way. For example if you carry no arms, you should have that clearly displayed on your character. And if your lootbag contains 5 heads of your enemies, maybe that gives out a stench of rotten flesh or blood on your clothes or something else revealing. I'm just saying it can be made really interesting for everyone if we choose to, and communicate it to the devs.

EDIT:

Thinking of dark souls, I really love their alignment system, how you can choose to be the murderer, or you can choose to help others, or you can specialize in hunting the worst murderers, or you can even be unpredictable and help who you please. The series really makes PvP interaction interesting, despite the players not sharing the same world constantly like in MO


EDIT2:

Right now we only have negative reputation in the game, but we have two lawless cities. We could easily implement a reputation level to those cities which increases when you are witnessed killing people, so that the murderer reputation would not only be a negative burden so to speak. This alongside with the harsher consequences for being a murderer in "blue" cities. Just some thoughts.

 

[Najwalaylah]

Or how about if you are murdered and no one is around to witness the murder then there is no murder count cause in real life you can't report your own murder.

That RL condition exists alongside permadeath.

There's not going to be permadeath in Mortal Online, so any argument for not reporting murders not witnessed by a third party is not based in the MO 'reality'.

 

[Teknique]

You should not be able to report your own murder unless it occurs within a sphere of influence of a faction.

As for PVP being too punishing, getting rezzed by a mage really isn't that punishing toughen up guys. When they bring back statloss you can cry.

 

[Najwalaylah]

You should not be able to report your own murder unless it occurs within a sphere of influence of a faction.

I read this as 'you should not be able to report your death as a murder unless it occurs within a sphere of influence of a faction', which speaks to a different issue and makes a kind of sense.

Of course, SV is probably never going to decide that the game should work that way.

 

[Leprechaun]

I think how it is funny that when a thread about PKers comes up, people instantly go on a defensive rant about PvP.

There is no issue what so ever with PvP in a game, and is very much welcomed in this game. The issue is the PKer's!!

People say learn to play bla bla bla, but No one can fight 1 v 10+ etc. grps on players with no concerns hanging around cities and camps, with the Purpose of killing 1 of 2 players that are alone, to gain what ever loot they have been farming for. I've even seen couples farming Razor camps, just to have a guild zerg run in kill them, take loot and leave again.

This style of PvP is not PvP that is Grief play, because the Game currently allows this to happen, can murder anyone for there loot without concern of what may happen after.

When people call for a change on the Murder counts, its not because they are Anti PvP, Its because they want there to be a RISK factor to playing that way!

or have all the snow flakes in the world got that bad that they want to kill who ever they want, but without the "Unfair risk" behind it !


Now I come from the Era on Ultima online. pre-trammel (which destroyed that game).
I've played Conan Exiles, Ark Survival and Many other survival games, where PvP is the core of the game, and everything was at risk on those game's.

This is a MMO, with the concept idea of Ultima online, a Skill tree that limits you to a play style. Has a Murder system (that needs changing) has a rep system (that needs abolishing) has guilds wars PvP - and will have Faction wars - PvP. there is Plenty of PvP options available to all.

End of the day IF a PKer wants to be a true PKer and not be part of a Guild war / faction war, that style of play for griefing the Blue players, that Should come with a real Risk.

Everyone will soon moan that the game is dead, when your only left with the zerg guilds on the map (that have the power to control the key points of the map) and no one else around.

To have / keep a healthy population there needs to be that added Protection for the Blue community that want to play the game, accept there is PKers but want to know that those who are PKing are doing so at a Higher risk / for that higher reward !

 

[Tzone]

I think how it is funny that when a thread about PKers comes up, people instantly go on a defensive rant about PvP.

There is no issue what so ever with PvP in a game, and is very much welcomed in this game. The issue is the PKer's!!

People say learn to play bla bla bla, but No one can fight 1 v 10+ etc. grps on players with no concerns hanging around cities and camps, with the Purpose of killing 1 of 2 players that are alone, to gain what ever loot they have been farming for. I've even seen couples farming Razor camps, just to have a guild zerg run in kill them, take loot and leave again.

This style of PvP is not PvP that is Grief play, because the Game currently allows this to happen, can murder anyone for there loot without concern of what may happen after.

When people call for a change on the Murder counts, its not because they are Anti PvP, Its because they want there to be a RISK factor to playing that way!

or have all the snow flakes in the world got that bad that they want to kill who ever they want, but without the "Unfair risk" behind it !


Now I come from the Era on Ultima online. pre-trammel (which destroyed that game).
I've played Conan Exiles, Ark Survival and Many other survival games, where PvP is the core of the game, and everything was at risk on those game's.

This is a MMO, with the concept idea of Ultima online, a Skill tree that limits you to a play style. Has a Murder system (that needs changing) has a rep system (that needs abolishing) has guilds wars PvP - and will have Faction wars - PvP. there is Plenty of PvP options available to all.

End of the day IF a PKer wants to be a true PKer and not be part of a Guild war / faction war, that style of play for griefing the Blue players, that Should come with a real Risk.

Everyone will soon moan that the game is dead, when your only left with the zerg guilds on the map (that have the power to control the key points of the map) and no one else around.

To have / keep a healthy population there needs to be that added Protection for the Blue community that want to play the game, accept there is PKers but want to know that those who are PKing are doing so at a Higher risk / for that higher reward !

Its open world PvP, and its 95% of the PvP you will get in this game. It is also the most meaningful PvP you have across most games available. What type of PvP is available outside of open world PvP? Meaningless duels? Wars that never and will never happen. Or if they do then its for short fights in between weeks of down time.

If you think that open world PvP is griefing them you are just weak mentally.

Lets talk about more punishing deaths for all players not just red because you want the game to punish and win fights for you. You talk about getting defensive but are not open for anything that would make your play time harsher. Not all of us are shallow individuals that get entertainment for meaningless PvE.

You are just asking for the game to have less meaningfull PvP that is all. You only want PvP allowed that you can opt out of. Just come out and ask for troggle PvP.

 

[Leprechaun]

Its open world PvP, and its 95% of the PvP you will get in this game. It is also the most meaningful PvP you have across most games available. What type of PvP is available outside of open world PvP? Meaningless duels? Wars that never and will never happen. Or if they do then its for short fights in between weeks of down time.

If you think that open world PvP is griefing them you are just weak mentally.

Lets talk about more punishing deaths for all players not just red because you want the game to punish and win fights for you. You talk about getting defensive but are not open for anything that would make your play time harsher. Not all of us are shallow individuals that get entertainment for meaningless PvE.

You are just asking for the game to have less meaningfull PvP that is all. You only want PvP allowed that you can opt out of. Just come out and ask for troggle PvP.

Sensitive! lol

I'm open to all. And coming from the Back ground of UO, I was actually a well known PKer called Leprechaun on Europa shard of UO back in the day before Trammel come along, taken on some of the best players, as Well as Killing other PKers in the game, I played to hold my title of being someone to be feared.
Not only that I knew my play style, I knew the risks that come with that Play style racking up Murder counts knowing Full well if and when I was killed, I would take a Heavy stat loss, if I chose to find a wandering RED Priest to bring myself back alive. (to which I did, retrained and went on the Hunt again)

Yes in my age I've got slower and what I can do, I'm not as fast or responsive as I once was. But I chose a Path that not only put fear into other players gaming, I got a name for myself.

Your young minded belief leads you to believe you have the Right to team up with 10 or so off your buddies and Kill 1 player whos minding his own business playing how they want to play and then call that PvP!

I'm not asking for Less Meaningful pvp, if anything I'm saying the game needs the opposite. A Murderer needs to earn his name, earn his color, Earn his fear ! not a blue hiding behind guards waiting to strike on a unsuspecting victim.

You want to be a BLUE pvper then Guild wars / Faction wars!!

You want to be a PLAYER KILLER (PK) then go red, Take the risks that come with that. Earn your name and Title within the game.

Stop classing GANKING blues as PvP as its far from that !

 

[Skabsticles]

Its open world PvP, and its 95% of the PvP you will get in this game. It is also the most meaningful PvP you have across most games available. What type of PvP is available outside of open world PvP? Meaningless duels? Wars that never and will never happen. Or if they do then its for short fights in between weeks of down time.

If you think that open world PvP is griefing them you are just weak mentally.

Lets talk about more punishing deaths for all players not just red because you want the game to punish and win fights for you. You talk about getting defensive but are not open for anything that would make your play time harsher. Not all of us are shallow individuals that get entertainment for meaningless PvE.

You are just asking for the game to have less meaningfull PvP that is all. You only want PvP allowed that you can opt out of. Just come out and ask for troggle PvP.

You sound pretty "weak mentally" With your comments by the way.. If you are such a great pvper you should beable to handle some harsher consequences for Murdering a player just because you can.. No one has said any where take the OpenWorld pvp away, but if you want to just constantly attack people that might not want to be attacked then you should have harsher consequences and if you kill them and win you should play dealing with those consequences.. You want to talk about being harsher to all players "blues" then A 10vs1 pvp gank is not achieving much other than harm towards the player who is ganked. what did the ganked player achieve? nothing they just loose and deal with the harsh consequences of loosing what ever they had or didnt have. A solo player who was minding his own business before he was mindlessly ganked by a toxic player with no second thought for another player Its Win win for the gankers and if you loose thats just tuff yeah? And if you dont have what you call meaningless pve how would the games Work it has a broker system pve driven by a lot of these players you choose to kill mindlessly so unfortunately for you thats half the game.

 

[Dramonis]

The reality of the current PvP state

This type of rush inside a city is unacceptable.

The problem is most of the ppl who say they are great PVPer, That mages need nef, Red priest too Far ... Are just ppl trying to justify easy mode game. They are not trilling for a good game exp for all players they just want a MA simulator with griefing of a new player base, and try to justify this with stupid logic by saying, "you play bad, me kill noob, me better" or "me play MO1, me know things".

Such behavior is just to keep the Guild griefing and not have to deal with more gameplay variety and consequences.

 

[AidanKyros]

I think we are assuming a lot of things in this thread, BUT the game could revise a lot of it's mechanics for the better if they wanted to.

Right now naked spawning on any character with no consequence is a terrible thing to witness, in lawless towns it forces players to priest camp as the loss vs risk of the naked guy grabbing a weapon or using the starter sword to pester people is not balanced.

In Gk we have two priests and pigs which easily get a starter set, it's a lawless town but because there is no risk to respawning endlessly as a blue or red, we end up having to police the priest entirely, and maybe as a guild you'd want to do it any way to stop ppl from using the blast furnace, but at least that would provoke other guilds to try and "take" GK from you, this free spawning is very much the definition of trolling.

Look at priests near dungeons, they are blue, they are apart of a nation, blues can spawn there for free to endless pull/agro/attack anyone in the dungeon, or ghost walk there naked spawn, run through the dungeon grab box loot if they know how to glitch the mobs or are fast enough, then run out with no risk; definitely a great implementation of risk/reward gameplay.
This also forces player vs player near a dungeon to lose rep every time someone spawns and tries to leash a ton of mobs and die/release them on your group as your likely to priest camp them until you leave, else you end up with groups of mobs coming at you.

I'd say none of this sounds fun for the murderer or the murdered, the innocent, the troll, it's just something to stir the emotion pot with each other.

Would harsher additions to the game fix some of these issues? I'd say no.

How about thought out ideas to revise the entire law/order/murder/priest/etc.. system instead, as vague statements of change aren't helpful at all, we may just end up with worse changes that end up with more nuisance to the game.