Graveyard PvP

[SilentPony]

So, this topic is frequently brought up in all places where PvP is discussed, even though killing in graveyards is just a small part of all PvP. But still, it happens and can take various forms.

It is often said that new players get acquainted with the game in the graveyards and people should not kill them. So I decided to check how things are in the graveyards. My observation is that about 30% of the players there are new to the game (horrible fighting skills in PvE, tend to stick to the graveyard for some time), another 30% probably sometimes come there to get some gold and items after death or to train combat a bit (they kill zombies slowly and soon leave) and the last 30% are players with good weapons, fully established in the game, who just farm gold there for some reason for hours. There are also player patrols looking for RPK, but I don't consider them part of the graveyard.

The graveyard has its own customs, like respecting areas in which a players farms or leaving the zombie for whoever got the first hit and tend to cooperate against threats, like grieving (with various funny results) or criminals (by swarming them). By grieving I mean different annoyances, like killstealing, for example, not going criminal and killing everyone. Several times I saw people grouping up to attack the griever. With the current reputation system, they either get killed or get a murdercount, doubt they want either of that so they most probably do not understand the consequences of going criminal and attacking. Sometimes other blue players attacked them in turn (or even the player patrols) instead of the griever. Other times, it becomes a 1v1, 1vX or even a small group fight.

My take from this is:
- the reputation system helps to annoy people, especially new ones, by using convoluted game mechanics (new players are more likely to get harmed by it), rather than protecting them
- most people in the graveyards are not new players and thus it should not be considered a sacred zone
- people like to talk on forums how graveyard RPK are unskilled, but it seems that the real unskilled players live forever in the graveyards themselves (and seem to think highly of themselves, too)
- graveyard farming is boring, is a noobtrap and promotes bad practices. Instead of learning to fight for resources and obtain resources for fighting, people get into this zombie-killing routine, that often pays poorly since there are so many players doing it at the same time. And it is usually easier to just kill a pig and get on with the game. Or even mine some granum.

Seriously, graveyards are probably as bad as mining in Eve Online, if anyone is familiar. People come to the game, get introduced to graveyards first, then get stuck in them for the rest of their game life, never properly venturing outside, then get bored and leave the game.

Any thoughts?

 

[Emdash]

Rep take is true. GY is a spot to go to, esp in beta when you aren't full clade and if you start at 0 clade in persist and it takes longer, people will be in there longer, assuming zombies still give the same exp.

A lot of people calling other people shit tiers are group fighters. Not that they don't ever roam alone, but they generally go out and do stuff with their buds. If you are solo, it's interesting to check the GY and see what happens. There is almost always something happening, and I even made the joke awhile ago in a now-deleted YouTube vid that GY was the best content in the game right now, cuz the world was so damn empty. Some people have come in, but sometimes you can just zone out in the GY and see what happens. It's close to town, you don't really feel like doing something, but you wanna hit something. You wanna see other players, see what happens.

Some of us might not seem like we are policing the GY but we are there to see if shit goes down. I don't like that everyone attacks greys cuz you never know what went down, but if someone is obviously preying on people yea might as well fight. Last vid I made I was in duli GY and saw some guys fighting outside 2v1ing someone and jumped the fence and helped peel for dude (the other guy ran away after a few hits cuz he didn't want pvp, he was just like ooo grey. That's another reason why the flag system sucks, it teaches new players that greys are BAD and that's not always true.) It's true, I didn't know who the aggressor was, but I was like I want 2v2! And we were all in dogshit gear.

The only time the GY sucks is when it's completely full of people on every spawn spot. It's not really kosher (and probably the fundamental reason they introduced the rep system) to be PKing people in your own graveyard, so it's just like sigh, so much for that. So hey, I gave you a thoughtful response to your thread. GIVE ME ONE TO MINE!!

Another try @repsystem

Still bussin my brain on diz because this is gonna affect my desire to play the game sub-wise. It's already affected me in beta, and I'm not someone who is thrilled by taking out my issues with lack of control in real life on people in games (ohhhh.) The thing is, you are building something that...

mortalonline2.com

 

[Tzone]

They need a farm inbetween zombies and bandits.

Take meduli as a example if you want to do some PvE farming. You walk not even a minute to the graveyard. The next level up is bandits which are much harder and you have to walk at least 10 minutes on foot across risky terrain. Its not really practical with out a horse. And so far away from the Graudzone.

Tindrem has sewers which is a pretty good example of what other towns need. Something thats half the distance of bandits but better then GY.

So far Tindrem has it. Fab is close with its tower but there are only zombies in there.

I saw on the reddit that a dude made a video all about how to make money with out stepping foot outside of town in meduli which is pretty sad. The exact opposite of what should be happening in this game.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Agreed that the game needs more mobs to farm in-between mega easy and nearly impossible to solo

 

[Tuhtram]

Thirding the 'game needs some step between zombies and bandits' sentiment.

 

[Darthus]

Thirding the 'game needs some step between zombies and bandits' sentiment.

It exists, it's scoundrels in the sewers of Tindrem, serves as a very natural level up from the graveyard in Tindrem (which coincidentally is still fully in the city, unlike other GYs, making it harder for low rep people to grief/run away as criminal) and is an actual dungeon within city limits, though with no guards and tougher mobs than zombies. Once noobs are comfortable killing scoundrels who actually behave similar to players (and maybe even team up with others to take down the scoundrel boss), they can move on to bandit camps which require travel through the open world and more coordination.

IMO, Tindrem should be the default "starting city" for noobs (at least recommended in the city list in Haven) and just add some steering to let new people know that this progression makes sense.

 

[Darthus]

My take from this is:
- the reputation system helps to annoy people, especially new ones, by using convoluted game mechanics (new players are more likely to get harmed by it), rather than protecting them
- most people in the graveyards are not new players and thus it should not be considered a sacred zone
- people like to talk on forums how graveyard RPK are unskilled, but it seems that the real unskilled players live forever in the graveyards themselves (and seem to think highly of themselves, too)
- graveyard farming is boring, is a noobtrap and promotes bad practices. Instead of learning to fight for resources and obtain resources for fighting, people get into this zombie-killing routine, that often pays poorly since there are so many players doing it at the same time. And it is usually easier to just kill a pig and get on with the game. Or even mine some granum.

Seriously, graveyards are probably as bad as mining in Eve Online, if anyone is familiar. People come to the game, get introduced to graveyards first, then get stuck in them for the rest of their game life, never properly venturing outside, then get bored and leave the game.

Any thoughts?

Graveyards I think are intended to be a place for new and recently poor (ie lost all their shit) players to get some basic money and get their feet under them. If it's not serving as this, it should be tweaked (perhaps zombies stop dropping stuff after you've killed x of them within a certain time or something, to discourage farming).

I don't think it's meant to be "sacred", but it is meant to be a place where people who are unlikely to be able to fight back (either due to lacking equipment or skill) are spending time, not a place for vets to hang out or rpks to get action (imo, given the addition of Lictors there first etc), so if it's not operating in that way, it should be tweaked further to meet that goal. Kill-stealing/griefing is a separate topic that yes, I think should be handled via systems changes (ie majority damage gets most of the loot etc, or even all the loot on zombies only, combined with the system I mentioned above of if you kill more than x zombies within a period of time, you no longer get loot from them or qualify for loot even if you were the majority damage dealer) rather than removing rep so newbies can attack said kill-stealers in the GY.

 

[Jatix]

With the current reputation system, they either get killed or get a murdercount, doubt they want either of that so they most probably do not understand the consequences of going criminal and attacking. Sometimes other blue players attacked them in turn (or even the player patrols) instead of the griever.
...
People come to the game, get introduced to graveyards first, then get stuck in them for the rest of their game life, never properly venturing outside, then get bored and leave the game.

This is one of the many reason I think the current standing system sucks. Its trying so hard to punish criminals, that it punishes the good players for trying to enforce law. Killing the griefer hurts them with standing loss, they have to farm back up. MO1 MC system was basic wit ha lot of issues, but a good law abiding player who didnt get kills often could kill a griefer or someone of needed, and their MC would tick down as they play and go down on its own.

On the GY grind cycle, I agree. My friend who actually showed me this game years ago, had that happen to him. All he knew to do was farm gy to buy a over priced flake weapon from the broker, then die and lose it, repeat. I've seen so many nubs that only know how to farm gy, buy over priced broker gear, then lose it. The game needs to try and get players to actually do more.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

Seems to me from what I read, those new players have for some reason decided to turn on the allow criminal actions option in the settings. Leaving that option off would've prevented them from harming any blue player.

They should also understand that kill-stealing and loot-stealing is a valid form of gameplay, though I would say it is a bad form (which probably provoked those new players to attack the kill-stealer or loot-stealer in the first place).

MO2 has left player freedom largely alone, while every other mmorpg out there (including EVE Online) has opted to curtail player freedom in this regard. By making things like looting wrecks left behind by other players a suspect action even though the player who made the kill has long warped out and never to return. In theme park mmorpgs, looting or killing mobs belonging to another player is not even possible.

Not that I condone this kind of behaviour at any level, to be clear. I will try to address this issue in a future video, thanks for bringing it up @SilentPony .

 

[2Op4Scrubs]

I do agree there needs to be more lower level mobs. Like the scoundrel's in the sewers. But they just cant add them to cities, I feel like its more of a player problem then no mobs. People seem scared to leave and explore like you stated above. They are locked in on the GY.

They could add hideaway arears to the city's, where scoundrels are. Add Scoundrels to certain alleys in the city's, or like a specific area controlled by thieves, bandits, scoundrels.... But It has to make sense, There should not be guards there, and they even still could be called bandits, just a different class with less health and poor equipment.

 

[Tuhtram]

It exists, it's scoundrels in the sewers of Tindrem, serves as a very natural level up from the graveyard in Tindrem (which coincidentally is still fully in the city, unlike other GYs, making it harder for low rep people to grief/run away as criminal) and is an actual dungeon within city limits, though with no guards and tougher mobs than zombies. Once noobs are comfortable killing scoundrels who actually behave similar to players (and maybe even team up with others to take down the scoundrel boss), they can move on to bandit camps which require travel through the open world and more coordination.

IMO, Tindrem should be the default "starting city" for noobs (at least recommended in the city list in Haven) and just add some steering to let new people know that this progression makes sense.

SV have said that the plan for if there’s a large population is that every starting city should be able to support new players, because spreading players out is something the servers can handle—them all grouped up in the same place isn’t. If everyone has to travel to Tindrem to experience something between walking dead and bandits, that defeats the purpose and would result in overcrowding of Tindrem.

 

[Vag]

There needs to be some sort of protection around the GYs, especially Meduli. I spent so long when first starting out farming z heads in the GY to make a bit of starting cash only to get ganked by groups of full plate players. Why kill a noob with no armour/basic armour for a pittance of gold? I mean you could actually go out and play the game, go fight some banditos in your lovely shiny plate, do a dungeon etc. All you do by ganking noobs in the GY is piss them off to the point where they stop playing, so a couple months after the game fully releases it'll have no influx of new players that will actually stay. I'm not saying completely remove PVP in the GYs but make it so it's really not worth it.

 

[Emdash]

Just make bandits way more prevalent. I dunno why they reduced their head cost, either now that they parry and everything. Bandit 'camps' where they leash... I mean back in Bakti there used to be a bandit SPAWN near enough, just beyond GY and people would farm that pretty hard. It was good content imo. It doesn't make a lot of sense to just have a couple of chuckle bandits sitting around, but maybe you could put like a table in between them or something haha.

Like I said pvp in the GY is fine tho, people in the GY w/ gear are basically saying 'try to fight me,' or they are just really stupid. lol I'd like to assume the former. 1vx vs a geared person in GY is content. We were all getting kinda shrekt in bakti GY by this guy... 3v1, me and two mages. I was buying FG FG armor cuz I lost all my mats in a reroll misfortune, but I mean nobody was not having fun IMO but then other guys came in with MAs and stuff, and it was like hm. I /y'd just let us mess w/ dude it's good practice. That's another thing people are forgetting, new players kinda NEED pvp practice, but I do think reg bandit spawns like they used to have would do a lot of good. I don't think they need to add a new type of mob, just make it so that's it's not ONE bandit or a whole camp w/ magi and stuff. Just make em playing poker or like laughing over a dead body or something. Just a sort of mail in 'plausible scenario.'

Edit: or like MK. It seemed like there was a bandit spawn by every place. I remem farming MK bandits as f2ps with a friend ( who quit eventually ha) and we got ganked by Prase. But it's just different, like when you are farming carcs or whatever, it's like you're doing work, but when you're in GY or close to the city fighting bandits, you are already fighting so it's not as griefy to die. But if you got your mount and bags and everything it's like dammit.

 

[pooternackle]

There needs to be some sort of protection around the GYs, especially Meduli. I spent so long when first starting out farming z heads in the GY to make a bit of starting cash only to get ganked by groups of full plate players. Why kill a noob with no armour/basic armour for a pittance of gold? I mean you could actually go out and play the game, go fight some banditos in your lovely shiny plate, do a dungeon etc. All you do by ganking noobs in the GY is piss them off to the point where they stop playing, so a couple months after the game fully releases it'll have no influx of new players that will actually stay. I'm not saying completely remove PVP in the GYs but make it so it's really not worth it.

I disagree. One of the only things that makes farming the zombies enjoyable is knowing that another player might come along and try to kill you for your heads. That tension is what this game does best.

Besides, the graveyards are right beside (or inside) each city. If a player attacks you, it’s not too hard to run into the range of a guard. The gank squads are definitely cringe though.

 

[Tloluvin]

Reading topics like this, I have the impression that many people forget that they are playing in a sandbox and not in CS or WoT. If someone wants to kill everyone everywhere, then the sandbox is not a game for him. The sandbox is not a game of murder. PvP is not the most important thing. PvP is just one part of the world. If someone wants to murder, let him murder, but let the murderer remember about the consequences depending on the place and the victim. The question of whether players should kill or not is wrong. The real question is whether city officials want city citizens to be safe in the city or not. If they want what they will do to achieve it. Maybe they'll hire more guards in the area where more murderers show up? Maybe they will banish the murderers from the city forever? Maybe they'll give a reward for the murderer's head? Maybe they will do something else?

One of the only things that makes farming the zombies enjoyable is knowing that another player might come along and try to kill you for your heads.

Assuming everyone thinks like you is wrong and never leads to a right conclusion. Everyone has their own preferences and expectations.

 

[SilentPony]

Reading topics like this, I have the impression that many people forget that they are playing in a sandbox and not in CS or WoT. If someone wants to kill everyone everywhere, then the sandbox is not a game for him. The sandbox is not a game of murder. PvP is not the most important thing. PvP is just one part of the world. If someone wants to murder, let him murder, but let the murderer remember about the consequences depending on the place and the victim. The question of whether players should kill or not is wrong. The real question is whether city officials want city citizens to be safe in the city or not. If they want what they will do to achieve it. Maybe they'll hire more guards in the area where more murderers show up? Maybe they will banish the murderers from the city forever? Maybe they'll give a reward for the murderer's head? Maybe they will do something else?



Assuming everyone thinks like you is wrong and never leads to a right conclusion. Everyone has their own preferences and expectations.

That is all possible. Players can hire other players, promise a bounty for someone's head or mark known murderers as kill on sight and kill them whenever they see them. NPC guards already do a decent job of assuring player safety inside the cities, no need to bring more NPCs and other external mechanics where they are not needed.

 

[pooternackle]

Reading topics like this, I have the impression that many people forget that they are playing in a sandbox and not in CS or WoT. If someone wants to kill everyone everywhere, then the sandbox is not a game for him. The sandbox is not a game of murder. PvP is not the most important thing. PvP is just one part of the world. If someone wants to murder, let him murder, but let the murderer remember about the consequences depending on the place and the victim. The question of whether players should kill or not is wrong. The real question is whether city officials want city citizens to be safe in the city or not. If they want what they will do to achieve it. Maybe they'll hire more guards in the area where more murderers show up? Maybe they will banish the murderers from the city forever? Maybe they'll give a reward for the murderer's head? Maybe they will do something else?

I agree, but a graveyard seems like a place a robber or murderer would go to avoid the eye of guards. When going to a zombie infested graveyard, you shouldn’t have the expectation that you’ll be protected by law enforcement.

Having guards protect me from players but ignoring the ravenous zombies trying to eat me is immersion breaking.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

@Tloluvin While it is true that this is a sandbox mmorpg and not CS or WoT (World of Tanks, I presume?), it is designed around the concept of pvp anywhere anytime and danger can come from anywhere, even within heavily guarded areas like the bank.

It would be more accurate to describe this game as a hardcore sandbox with pvp as a big part of it, and unfettered player freedom to do as they wish. Want to gank an unarmoured player in town who went afk in front of the guards but get guard-whacked in the process? Perfectly valid, though others may frown upon it. But perfectly valid nevertheless.

It is this that sets MO2 apart from what the popular notion of what a sandbox game is. The game simply gives you the tools and freedom, not just for those who aren't pvp-minded but for those who are. What they do with that freedom is not for the game to govern, but for the players to govern.

There are of course consequences for excessive pvp for the purpose of murder. Those who turn red will become kill-on-sight targets for anyone and will not be welcomed in blue towns. They will lose reputation with the factions, and become the wanted criminals and fugitives that other players will come to fear and loathe.

 

[Tloluvin]

NPC guards already do a decent job of assuring player safety inside the cities, no need to bring more NPCs and other external mechanics where they are not needed.

You are looking at the problem from the wrong side. MO2 is a sandbox. In the sandbox, the man in front of the monitor does not matter. The character in the game is important. Therefore, you have to look at the problem from the inside, not from the outside. The cemetery is next to the city. Newcomers come to kill zombies which is good for the city. However, murderers follow them. What would you do if someone was still murdering a lot of people next to your house? Are you going to tell everyone "it's not my problem" because they aren't attacking you? Maybe. But what should the city authorities do? Ignore? Or perhaps to recognize that the murderers in the cemetery are a threat to the inhabitants and exterminate the zombies? The real problem with MO2 is not that players are killing themselves in the graveyard. The problem is that the world doesn't have the depth required by a sandbox. However, we still have a beta.

When going to a zombie infested graveyard, you shouldn’t have the expectation that you’ll be protected by law enforcement

Why? This is not your or the guards' decision. A cemetery is an urban area, so this city should decide about the rules there, guided by its interests.

Having guards protect me from players but ignoring the ravenous zombies trying to eat me is immersion breaking.

A cop ignoring a pickpocket to catch a serial killer is a bad person? Why? Everyone has their orders.

it is designed around the concept of pvp anywhere anytime and danger can come from anywhere, even within heavily guarded areas like the bank.

It doesn't matter. You control a character who is one of the world's many inhabitants. When you conquer a city or create your own, you create your own laws. Otherwise, either obey the law or you will get the consequences.

The game simply gives you the tools and freedom, not just for those who aren't pvp-minded but for those who are.

I fully agree, but freedom does not mean inconsistency. Each decision is a choice that has consequences.

What they do with that freedom is not for the game to govern, but for the players to govern.

Not true. In the sandbox you live in the world and you are bound by its laws. Therefore, for example, you cannot fly like a bird, even as much as you want to. If you want to do whatever you want, there are other games.
So you have to ask if you want a sandbox or something else? If something else then what? If MO2 is going to be a killing game, why such a big world or craftsmanship? Let's lock everyone up in Haven, put any inventory and kill stats on the website. Pure combat for everyone.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

It doesn't matter. You control a character who is one of the world's many inhabitants. When you conquer a city or create your own, you create your own laws. Otherwise, either obey the law or you will get the consequences.

The game is working as the devs intended in their vision. Laws do exist, but so does pvp anywhere anytime. It is up to the players to decide what risks they're willing to take for what rewards.

I fully agree, but freedom does not mean inconsistency. Each decision is a choice that has consequences.

The consequences are always consistent, but everyone makes choices that won't always be consistent with what someone else may expect. That's just human nature.

Not true. In the sandbox you live in the world and you are bound by its laws. Therefore, for example, you cannot fly like a bird, even as much as you want to. If you want to do whatever you want, there are other games.
So you have to ask if you want a sandbox or something else? If something else then what? If MO2 is going to be a killing game, why such a big world or craftsmanship? Let's lock everyone up in Haven, put any inventory and kill stats on the website. Pure combat for everyone.

No one is denying that every player is bound by its rules and laws. Though I'm sure everyone who came here (and stayed) to play this game did so because we liked the sense of danger, unpredictable nature of other players, and having to take care of one's own safety instead of asking the game to do it for us. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here.