Why we don´t need Haven

[Kaemik]

I think we can all agree if any polearm has a spearstance that 1 shots every mount with it's rider and is super easy to land that mounts wouldn't be overpowered, but rather underpowered. Therefore any reasonable person should be able to agree the factors you listed don't make mounted builds OP if the proper counters exist.

I only claim to have a clue about things I have a clue about. This statement is pure simple logic. If the counters to any build are strong enough it can't be OP in a PvP context. Not claiming I know whose right, just saying your arguments against his position don't make you right unless the counters were too weak. And then the solution wouldn't necessarily be a nerf to the build as much as a buff to the counters.

You want me to conclude someone is a troll based on an argument I can poke holes in without detailed game knowledge. When you've called me a troll a few times yourself. Seems like anyone you disagree with is a troll to you.

 

[ElPerro]

I'm not going to argue which MO1 classes were or weren't balanced in that game as it isn't super relevant to MO2. I do know your argument is presented disingenuously. When you say "Most damage" you mean biggest hits not highest DPS, mounted builds in MO1 were charge based so each of their huge attacks took awhile to set up.

Yeah no, in MO1 mounts were like go carts, you could stop on a dime and pretty much sticky back people with your mounted...

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah no, in MO1 mounts were like go carts, you could stop on a dime and pretty much sticky back people with your mounted...

Not only did I play with mounts back in the day. I also played with them recently in MO1. I tried just face-to-face smashing a zombie with a sword from my mount. The damage was so terrible I literally had to dismount to finish the fight. All the damage is momentum based. How could you stickbacky someone like that if they didn't do absolutely everything wrong to set you up for it?

Regardless, that isn't how it should work in MO2. I believe in a bonus for being mounted that increases on a charge like Conan Exiles mounted combat. If someone fights you face-to-face you generally SHOULD win if they aren't employing an anti-cav weapon / you don't have a dedicated charge weapon.

 

[Teknique]

Not only did I play with mounts back in the day. I also played with them recently in MO1. I tried just face-to-face smashing a zombie with a sword from my mount. The damage was so terrible I literally had to dismount to finish the fight. All the damage is momentum based. How could you stickbacky someone like that if they didn't do absolutely everything wrong to set you up for it?

Regardless, that isn't how it should work in MO2. I believe in a bonus for being mounted that increases on a charge like Conan Exiles mounted combat. If someone fights you face-to-face you generally SHOULD win if they aren't employing an anti-cav weapon / you don't have a dedicated charge weapon.

You probably don't even have the mounted charge ability, or you're using a weapon above 4 weight.
solution? Defer to experts

I don't know if you realize how ignorant you sound in that post. Part of the reason I say you're trolling.

 

[Kaemik]

You probably don't even have the mounted charge ability, or you're using a weapon above 4 weight.
solution? Defer to experts

Sure thing. @Rhodri_Taliesin, is it possible to stickyback people with a mounted build assuming they're playing against mounted builds properly?

 

[Teknique]

Sure thing. @Rhodri_Taliesin, is it possible to stickyback people with a mounted build assuming they're playing against mounted builds properly?

Let me level with you for a moment Kaemik.

I'm rarely unfair. I actually like you and admire your bravery, as well as your ability to rationalize and hold a calm and fair debate.

I always strive to give credit where its due. Do those sound like the words of a partisan? In contrast to say someone like yourself who comes in taking a position complimentary to Rhodri because you think i've insulted you or whatever. When you do not even know how mounted charge/weapon weight works on mounted. Our personal feelings about each other are irrelevant to discussion and thats how I always approach things.

I'm quite accustomed to people debating based on their personal feelings and its rather pathetic.

Alas I'm somewhat known for having a soft spot for some of the dumbest people in this game. I've fought with them, defended them etc

Which is why it saddens me that players like Rhodri force me to insult their ridiculous positions.

I'm actually the victim here, why are people i'm fond of so aggressively bias forcing a rift between us?

I beg of you stop speaking out of your rectum. I kind of hope someone knows how mounted charge works before they start typing in every thread about mounteds.

 

[Kaemik]

As I said. I'm not vet but I did play the game. I don't recognize many names, but Rhodri of the Dutchy of Wessex is one of them. And I actually remember him being a pretty knowledgabe dude who answered a lot of questions and generally was agreeable.

I don't think I ever got into it with him on the forums. But I don't like him purely because you dislike him.

 

[Teknique]

As I said. I'm not vet but I did play the game. I don't recognize many names, but Rhodri of the Ductchy of Wessex is one of them. And I actually remember him being a pretty knowledgabe dude who answered a lot of questions and generally was agreeable.

I don't think I ever got into it with him on the forums. But I don't like him purely because you dislike him.

I don’t dislike him. Like he said we played together. He takes idiotic positions forcing me to insult him like a lot of people

 

[Kaemik]

Fair enough. It seems implausible to me that mounted builds could control so well that they stickybacked good foot fighters or else I would wonder why people play anything but. Like why was that video you posted like 90% foot fighters? It's implausible the MO1 community was really that "honorable". But I'll let you MO1 vets debate how it was in MO1.

I'm still going to debate how it SHOULD be in MO2, because I've played multiple really good mounted combat systems, and both combat systems we have in MO2 are dramatically different from MO1, so MO1 experience is barely more relevant than any other action combat game.

*Actually I'll amend that. I've played tons of games with mounted combat but Conan Exiles is the only one I would say is really good.

 

[Eldrath]

Right since the moderation team seems to be a sleep I´ll take the one thing out of all your ranting that is even remotely related to the topic.

Players will cling to anything that makes them feel competent and increases their enjoyment, regardless of arguments presented to them. The same way that people argued for mounts that had no downsides, others will argue for features from Haven to be taken over to the main game.

Taking away anything from players is hard. So make sure you don´t implement anything that breaks your game. SV has a long history of doing that, which is part of the reason why this thread exists.

I won´t give up hope though that a mod strolls by and cleans this up.

 

[Kaemik]

It's not just me ranting, the entire thread has been derailed by multiple people. But given it's one of like 3-5 topics on Haven right now and nobody has made a new point on the topic in like half a week... that seems ok.

There will be an insignificant number of people arguing for a PVE server or continent. There always are in these sorts of games. And there will be people arguing that any feature that doesn't seem hardcore to them is Trammel 2.0, there always are. It's rather tiresome to hear "The PvEers will ruin our game" and "OMG remember Trammel" used as a boogeyman to frighten children over and over and over in games that have Open World PvP as their core feature and generally always stick to their guns on that point.

Any game that allows vets to declare open season on newbs isn't long for this world. Devs aren't going to listen to you because they want to put food on the table. But they also wouldn't make an open world full loot PvP MMO if they're planning to just turn around and turn it into Hello Kitty Online because a couple people ask them to. They've already said the area keeps can be will be limited in MO2 so walling off sections of the map isn't a real concern for MO2. What else are you afraid of? Guards that work properly?

 

[Eldrath]

No, all of you were ranting about off-topic bullshit and I actually don´t think it is "ok" to intentionally derail threads.

You can continue to be dismissive of my person and my points. All it will yield you is applause from those already agreeing with you and disdain from anyone who appreciates a proper discussion.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

Rhodri enlightening?

Thats actually comical.

"Hey guys put gold in your weapon grip for more blunt damage."

 

[Kaemik]

No, all of you were ranting about off-topic bullshit and I actually don´t think it is "ok" to intentionally derail threads.

You can continue to be dismissive of my person and my points. All it will yield you is applause from those already agreeing with you and disdain from anyone who appreciates a proper discussion.

As I stated, the proper discussion ended like half a week ago. We're barely seeing new points brought up in any of the multiple threads on this subject and none from you.

Nobody is intentionally derailing threads. Discussions evolve and some points lead into other points that are not related to the OP. And we've created multiple side-threads to avoid derailing this one. If the same tired "slippery slope" fallacy argument you keep spamming hadn't been made like 20 times and been refuted nearly as many, starting back at like the beginning of the topic, you might have some business getting all angry people diverged for a bit.

At this point, you're just coming across as a self-righteous whiner bragging about how you cried to the mods because the topic got sidetracked from repeating the same tired old points a bit. You literally asked for this thread to be locked anyway. So how can you be upset people got sidetracked in a topic you want locked?

 

[Eldrath]

There is literally no connection between your little spat with Teknique and HYM to this topic. So it is not an evolution at all. It´s flinging shit.

I prefer clean threads that actually display some of the culture that used exist in the old forums. I can see how that would impede your "style" of arguing.

 

[Kaemik]

*Wipes the his mouth with the table cloth, pauses, and then blows his nose into it*

Alright back to our "classy" circular argument then.

A slippery slope argument is considered a logical fallacy, it's a point generally made to back up a weak/baseless argument. And that's precisely what "If you give them Haven they'll just beg for more carebear features" is. It's a textbook example of the slippery slope fallacy. I assume you're making it because you on some level realize your other points are too weak to hold water. Haven is no true threat to the hardcore PvP status of the game so you need some "but it will get worse" style nonsense to throw in there and scare the gullible.

The reality is there is not a single good reason to expose newbs to ganking before they learn game controls. When they learn the game controls they might actually have some fun getting attacked. But the "they need to be exposed to PvP early" argument really loses all validity when you consider how short of a time the average player's Haven experience should be. They will experience it early, they just won't experience it while entirely helpless.

The only losers in this situation are griefers who want to pick-off helpless newbs as they start the game. And if those players quit... good. They have a negative value to this community.

 

[Eldrath]

 

[agui]

I want 6x bigger ,a tephra crater , BF and great natorus ... i will stay in heaven 4 eva

 

[sigrace]

I never understood the disdain for a "carebear" area. It's a game with PvP, sure, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to PvP. There's plenty of crafters and PvErs who will prefer to do just that. I say Haven should be 100% pvp free (Weapons and Magic do no dmg to players) AND you should be able to return to it any time you would like. I don't think you should be able to take things from Haven to the rest of the world and vice-versa.

On top of that, I think Tindrem and a small area surrounding it should be heavily guarded and uncapturable by players. An area where you can start PvP conflict, but will likely not live long enough to profit from it. I'd make the resources around the area rather low tier. Things that are abundant most anywhere on the map.

"Carebears" need an area of relative safety so that they can build up the courage to eventually step out into more dangerous territory to find cooler things. I say this as a guy who actively hunts others in most open world PvP games and rarely spares anyone not in my group or allied with my group. Games like Albion and EvE do this, and those are both full loot PvP.

Taking those areas away just makes the game less fun for players who wouldn't really be participating in PvP to begin with.

 

[Amelia]

We know so few things about MO2 and so Haven but I don't really understand the utility of this tutorial/guide (?). New players could have something similar but made better seeing in MO1 Tindrem. Very basic guides (npc) without split the community in another place/game (because is the sensation that I had when I tried Haven, another game inside a game). Moreover we must consider that there are already good guides that explain "how to.." ,old MO1 guides that anyway give a good help to new comers.