Why we don´t need Haven

[Godkin Veratas]

@Eldrath @Godkin Veratas Do you think that the lvl 1-3 zones in Albion were a net positive or negative to the game pop.

I'm sure its much better to have that then ganking in lvl 1 zones.

Removing haven doesn't seem like a good idea, but it really is on SV to make it not broken..

I know nothing about Albion so I won't speak to it. Feel free to share what you like about it though.

this is not a safe zone vs open issue,
or a pve vs pvp issue, partisan representation doesn't change the fact that those can all happen with a consistent and intuitive product.
this is about marketing a more consistent and intuitive product to a player base so they enjoy, understand and retain.

Yes. Exactly.

Haven is a dodge for a shitty UI and implementation. MO2 is already far from intuitive, though much improved.

It's taken years to get very simple commands to work properly, like right-click to add items to inventory.
The idea to design a huge tutorial when you can't even get a simple command to work in your game is a manipulative discussion.

Haven is a way to redirect player frustration away from the broken and crappy mechanics on to each other. SV does this a lot, people are easily divided. Is the problem that the game is fucking horrible and broken, Or is it that players are mean? What can we do about mean players, obviously we can't do a fucking thing about our UI.

As is happening in this thread.

The only point worth discussing without furthering the slow rolling mutiny in the SV office is: if the game mechanics and UI were intuitive enough that through simply playing it, one could learn all that is needed for beginner knowledge, would we need Haven?

 

[Speznat]

As it was before, it was enough that there was a fairly small group of players dedicated to griefing new players to actually make a big impact on the starting experience.

I dont want to anger someone or make bad mood please read all. Now finally after 6years i can tell.
RPK are you happy now.

I said dont kill the new people in morin khur and guess what they did. They said many of them will leave anyway. But guess what, a few would still be playing now and discussing with all of us right now. if you wouldn't have griefed thousends out of this game. An with griefing i really mena killing people at priest down because they didnt know how to move up again and all that stuff. For only the temporary enjoyment of killing instead of long term enjoyment of pvp.

Im in peace with all in the community in MO2 its fresh reputation for everyone. I dont have anything about the rpk guys now. I just want to point out with this that even we all as a community are also involed in the retention Star vault have. SO maybe please think of future players and maybe they will be your future campanions.

I just hope that people stop killing completly noob players, kill veterans like me instead. its more worth it. But some Frehs noob installed the game 3 hours ago cant handle that, but they maybe would stick in the long term. If they fully understand the machanics.

We all as a Community are also Responsible to lead this game to success.

 

[Teknique]

I dont want to anger someone or make bad mood please read all. Now finally after 6years i can tell.
RPK are you happy now.

I said dont kill the new people in morin khur and guess what they did. They said many of them will leave anyway. But guess what, a few would still be playing now and discussing with all of us right now. if you wouldn't have griefed thousends out of this game. An with griefing i really mena killing people at priest down because they didnt know how to move up again and all that stuff. For only the temporary enjoyment of killing instead of long term enjoyment of pvp.

Im in peace with all in the community in MO2 its fresh reputation for everyone. I dont have anything about the rpk guys now. I just want to point out with this that even we all as a community are also involed in the retention Star vault have. SO maybe please think of future players and maybe they will be your future campanions.

I just hope that people stop killing completly noob players, kill veterans like me instead. its more worth it. But some Frehs noob installed the game 3 hours ago cant handle that, but they maybe would stick in the long term. If they fully understand the machanics.

We all as a Community are also Responsible to lead this game to success.

Obviously this is just one persons experience, but I played at steam release.

at morin khur I was killed a grand total of one time right next to the priest and I don't believe I was looted.

I got griefed much harder by the nearest priest function taking me to Toxai and having no clue where I was. As I died by I believe to some spiderlings I didn't see, since leaving town wasn't a problem.

I then rerolled at tindrem and there was a red fat mage in the tindrem garden.

he killed me much harder than my experience at MK.

Then at tindrem gates I was killed many time by mongoloid, almost once per hour.

I didn't mind too much it was a little game how much gold could I farm inbetween deaths.

I get that i'm built different though and some people instead of just moving they'll cry and scream at their monitors and say "DON'T YOU FEEL BAD NOW".

News flash, they don't.

 

[Speznat]

Obviously this is just one persons experience, but I played at steam release.

at morin khur I was killed a grand total of one time right next to the priest and I don't believe I was looted.

I got griefed much harder by the nearest priest function taking me to Toxai and having no clue where I was. As I died by I believe to some spiderlings I didn't see, since leaving town wasn't a problem.

I then rerolled at tindrem and there was a red fat mage in the tindrem garden.

he killed me much harder than my experience at MK.

Then at tindrem gates I was killed many time by mongoloid, almost once per hour.

I didn't mind too much it was a little game how much gold could I farm inbetween deaths.

I get that i'm built different though and some people instead of just moving they'll cry and scream at their monitors and say "DON'T YOU FEEL BAD NOW".

News flash, they don't.

yeah i know what you mean.

but it just dont change the fact that actual people quit because of this. and the same people are responsible for this complained ever since, that the game is empty. Its very funny that some people sacrifice long term stability over short term destruction.

Im not stupid i know that this will never change.

But we have to accept whats in front of us. Maybe if even 1 guy the next time he sees a totally noob, just decides to not kill the noob or priest camp a noob would be a huge improvement because that one noob can become a good companion later. Like a Zonsteel for example.

We all would never had experienced zonsteel if he would have never met us Wolfzeit guys on his first login. No clue whats soever and getting totally obliberated while trying to leave town. And now we are all glad that we this Oghmium Mounted Master fighter is a part of the mortal online community.

But you guess what i mean. instead of slaughter the noobs you should recruit them. even if 95% will quit after a few months, 5% will stay and will become the next zonsteels or Rhias or Voona or Alrashid or the next Teknique. Its always better to have a Teknique more on your side or on the enemy side, instead no Teknique at all.

we can atleast make a few people stay for lifetime, if the chance is given to them.

 

[Blood Thorn]

The only point worth discussing without furthering the slow rolling mutiny in the SV office is: if the game mechanics and UI were intuitive enough that through simply playing it, one could learn all that is needed for beginner knowledge, would we need Haven?

Yes - but at various levels of 'safety', so not necessary a complete 'haven'. Players need to enjoy playing the game and having time to become invested in the game. No one is going to come here to play thinking its candyland (or Archage) - put they need to feel like they are moving forward with their 'character story'. Set backs are fine, as long as its 3 steps forward - 2 steps back and they had fun with most of the steps.

EvE did this brilliantly - players got kicked out of nullsec all the time, then rebuilt in high/low sec before venturing back out again. Let players build/invest/create/have fun with the risk of losing it all, but as long as they have a place to reset, they will stick around and cycle through all of it again.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

Yes - but at various levels of 'safety', so not necessary a complete 'haven'. Players need to enjoy playing the game and having time to become invested in the game. No one is going to come here to play thinking its candyland (or Archage) - put they need to feel like they are moving forward with their 'character story'. Set backs are fine, as long as its 3 steps forward - 2 steps back and they had fun with most of the steps.

EvE did this brilliantly - players got kicked out of nullsec all the time, then rebuilt in high/low sec before venturing back out again. Let players build/invest/create/have fun with the risk of losing it all, but as long as they have a place to reset, they will stick around and cycle through all of it again.

Yeah, I appreciate the perspective, I understand how you arrive at it, and I don't agree and will never agree. My experience in games, and MO in particular lead me to other conclusions. The "safest" zones in MO (other than Haven) have the highest death rates, so there's a lot to the design that will be missed in comparisons. Further, you describe games I don't want to play and systems that I don't like.

For MO, essentially, the argument is:

Haven because the game is too violent.
Haven because the game is too difficult to understand.

Neither justify Haven to me, one or both seem to justify Haven to others.

Those sympathetic to the game being too difficult to understand are unwittingly supporting those arguing the game is too violent.

 

[Teknique]

yeah i know what you mean.

but it just dont change the fact that actual people quit because of this. and the same people are responsible for this complained ever since, that the game is empty. Its very funny that some people sacrifice long term stability over short term destruction.

Im not stupid i know that this will never change.

But we have to accept whats in front of us. Maybe if even 1 guy the next time he sees a totally noob, just decides to not kill the noob or priest camp a noob would be a huge improvement because that one noob can become a good companion later. Like a Zonsteel for example.

We all would never had experienced zonsteel if he would have never met us Wolfzeit guys on his first login. No clue whats soever and getting totally obliberated while trying to leave town. And now we are all glad that we this Oghmium Mounted Master fighter is a part of the mortal online community.

But you guess what i mean. instead of slaughter the noobs you should recruit them. even if 95% will quit after a few months, 5% will stay and will become the next zonsteels or Rhias or Voona or Alrashid or the next Teknique. Its always better to have a Teknique more on your side or on the enemy side, instead no Teknique at all.

we can atleast make a few people stay for lifetime, if the chance is given to them.

I agree, i've never advocated for killing new players to the game.

The challenge nor the gear is worth it so it makes no sense to me and ultimately we all lose.

Which is why i'm fine with the idea of Haven. Godkin and Eldrath suggest the community will police itself. I don't think I could name a single MO player with the strength or character to accomplish such a feat let alone a majority.

Yeah, I appreciate the perspective, I understand how you arrive at it, and I don't agree and will never agree. My experience in games, and MO in particular lead me to other conclusions. The "safest" zones in MO (other than Haven) have the highest death rates, so there's a lot to the design that will be missed in comparisons. Further, you describe games I don't want to play and systems that I don't like.

For MO, essentially, the argument is:

Haven because the game is too violent.
Haven because the game is too difficult to understand.

Neither justify Haven to me, one or both seem to justify Haven to others.

Those sympathetic to the game being too difficult to understood are unwittingly supporting those arguing the game is too violent.

In Albion they used a similar idea to haven but just made the noob zones complete safe zones instead of a specific continent, otherwise it worked pretty much exactly the same. If you wanted to gather more advanced materials then you could be pked.

Relative to MO the population in that game was much higher, which I believe can at least tell us that there was no mass exodus from the game due to safe zones.

On a personal level do I think the game would have been better if I was getting zerged right from the tutorial zone by 50+ people in tier 8 gear. I really don't think I would feel that way.

It is human nature to want a somewhat fair fight otherwise you will not participate.

The surprising moral dimension of fights between rats :: Strong rats have to let their weaker opponent win 30 percent of the time. If they don’t…

When two rats fight it’s not always the biggest rat that wins. The biggest rat could win pretty much 100 percent of the time, if it wanted to. But that doesn’t happen. If the bigger rat…

projectauthenticity.org

I haven't actually read the study behind this media but if players can't achieve small victories they likely will not participate.

I think at the end of MO 1 we had the opposite problem. The entire game became a safe zone of keeps, guards, mountain tc towers, walls, and fire arrows. The pkers couldn't participate or win at all.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

yeah i know what you mean.

but it just dont change the fact that actual people quit because of this. and the same people are responsible for this complained ever since, that the game is empty. Its very funny that some people sacrifice long term stability over short term destruction.

Im not stupid i know that this will never change.

But we have to accept whats in front of us. Maybe if even 1 guy the next time he sees a totally noob, just decides to not kill the noob or priest camp a noob would be a huge improvement because that one noob can become a good companion later. Like a Zonsteel for example.

We all would never had experienced zonsteel if he would have never met us Wolfzeit guys on his first login. No clue whats soever and getting totally obliberated while trying to leave town. And now we are all glad that we this Oghmium Mounted Master fighter is a part of the mortal online community.

But you guess what i mean. instead of slaughter the noobs you should recruit them. even if 95% will quit after a few months, 5% will stay and will become the next zonsteels or Rhias or Voona or Alrashid or the next Teknique. Its always better to have a Teknique more on your side or on the enemy side, instead no Teknique at all.

we can atleast make a few people stay for lifetime, if the chance is given to them.

This only matters if players have a choice. MO should invoke this passion. Yet, this passionate argument has no place in a game where devs decide who we can kill and where.

I agree, i've never advocated for killing new players to the game.

The challenge nor the gear is worth it so it makes no sense to me and ultimately we all lose.

Which is why i'm fine with the idea of Haven. Godkin and Eldrath suggest the community will police itself. I don't think I could name a single MO player with the strength or character to accomplish such a feat let alone a majority.


In Albion they used a similar idea to haven but just made the noob zones complete safe zones instead of a specific continent, otherwise it worked pretty much exactly the same. If you wanted to gather more advanced materials then you could be pked.

Relative to MO the population in that game was much higher, which I believe can at least tell us that there was no mass exodus from the game due to safe zones.

On a personal level do I think the game would have been better if I was getting zerged right from the tutorial zone by 50+ people in tier 8 gear. I really don't think I would feel that way.

It is human nature to want a somewhat fair fight otherwise you will not participate.

The surprising moral dimension of fights between rats :: Strong rats have to let their weaker opponent win 30 percent of the time. If they don’t…

When two rats fight it’s not always the biggest rat that wins. The biggest rat could win pretty much 100 percent of the time, if it wanted to. But that doesn’t happen. If the bigger rat…

projectauthenticity.org

I haven't actually read the study behind this media but if players can't achieve small victories they likely will not participate.

I think at the end of MO 1 we had the opposite problem. The entire game became a safe zone of keeps, guards, mountain tc towers, walls, and fire arrows. The pkers couldn't participate or win at all.

This is all over the place. Very difficult to follow.

But I will say that victories for the outnumbered or under-geared is a crucial part of the appeal for MO. Most people will tell stories about victories with the odds against them. Very few bore people with stories about victories over much lesser opponents. This is known.

 

[Speznat]

11years ago my first experience i saw the trailer i downloaded the game i made my charackter spend a little bit on research.

Got killed at spawn in fabernum, didnt know what to do, deleted the charackter because i didnt know how to revive.

I got in the game again and killed again. im pretty pissed at that moment was nearly to quit enteriely and never visit the shithole again, was my thought.

than i made my charackter agian same name. the guy that spawn camped me twice told me the priest is in that direction and made the point emote.
than he killed me.

90% would have atleast quit on the second death. and thats sad.

some would say it would be a blessing if we never met speznat. but you guess what i mean, with such toxitiy to new players this game will never succeed.
we will never have high scaled siege fights and massive army fights, it will always be small scale battles and a pseudo feeling of what we imagined when we started. SV has to implement stuff right, and the community must act atleast a little bit more responsible. I know trolls and idiots will never change because why should they. But even if you convince one guy to not priest camp to not grief completly fresh players than you did something memorable for the community because it could be the next: Godkin, Strilan, Ichorous, Azidano, Ruben, Technique hornyfurry, Zonsteel and so on. It doesn't matter if they are your enemy or not. its Still better than if we would have never met them all.

 

[Svaar]

That you are discussing the same thing. New players should be given an introduction. It is normal for beginners to go through the tutorial and complete primitive quests that introduce the player to the basic mechanics of the game. As soon as he passes these quests, he is thrown into the general world. By type: to select inventory, press I, the game has 4 directions of attack, hit them using the direction of the camera, and so on. you hit 2/4 beats. There are 4 blocks in the game, make them and the like. Primitive things that will help the player quickly learn. Many games have this. But if you do not want to go through this as a new player, then you can skip the training and go to the big world, but there should be a message, warning that without going through the tutorial in the world anarchy and chaos awaits him, you are ready to go into the world without learning the basics ? YES / NO =) .... Actions for 1-2 hours of playing time.

 

[Speznat]

That you are discussing the same thing. New players should be given an introduction. It is normal for beginners to go through the tutorial and complete primitive quests that introduce the player to the basic mechanics of the game. As soon as he passes these quests, he is thrown into the general world. By type: to select inventory, press I, the game has 4 directions of attack, hit them using the direction of the camera, and so on. you hit 2/4 beats. There are 4 blocks in the game, make them and the like. Primitive things that will help the player quickly learn. Many games have this. But if you do not want to go through this as a new player, then you can skip the training and go to the big world, but there should be a message, warning that without going through the tutorial in the world anarchy and chaos awaits him, you are ready to go into the world without learning the basics ? YES / NO =) .... Actions for 1-2 hours of playing time.

optional tutorial would be nice. and the option if a new player decides otherwise that he can make the tutorial after he relised that skipping it was a bad idea. would be best i guess.

 

[Kaemik]

To a certain degree, I think having Haven entirely separate from the world is a bad idea. If you skip certain parts of the tutorial and are like "man I want to go back to do those" you should. If you want to go there to answer people's questions or recruit for your guild you should. The only part I have an objection to is that older players killing newbs before those newbs have a chance to learn basic character controls can in any way enhance the new player experience. Any player who gets off on that is an extreme outlier.

Those of us who have run through the drill a few times in other full-loot titles are more tolerant of getting ganked at starter spawn. But damn near nobody has their enjoyment enhanced by fights where they feel completely helpless. Getting ran over by a group of 25 players out in the game as a mid/high level player is a better experienced than getting lanced down by some full geared dipshit 10 seconds after character creation.

 

[Teknique]

This only matters if players have a choice. MO should invoke this passion. Yet, this passionate argument has no place in a game where devs decide who we can kill and where.


This is all over the place. Very difficult to follow.

But I will say that victories for the outnumbered or under-geared is a crucial part of the appeal for MO. Most people will tell stories about victories with the odds against them. Very few bore people with stories about victories over much lesser opponents. This is known.

By victory I mean not being constantly crushed in the noob zone

 

[Blood Thorn]

One of the few things Life is Feudal did right was that new players appeared on an island (the same from the YO release). They could not attack each other but they could learn the game at their pace as they could stay there indefinitely. However, periodically the islands would be wiped so anything they built would be destroyed.

Because MO2 will be using a sub model (which I totally support) unhappy players and those who don't know the game will be quick to cancel and leave. A similar approach that LiF used would give players a chance to experience the game before ending up on the wrong end of someone else's weapon. Just reset the world once in a while to encourage players to move on. Hell, you could even make that part of the game free to play with a skill cap.

 

[Eldrath]

@Teknique
Albion and EVE are both good games in their own right, but follow a different design. Essentially they both have PvE zones, in EVEs case with little risk and Albion with zero risk. That can work, but I think it´s less enjoyable than Mortals design (no safezones - until Haven). It also offers other problems like gold farmers, which will never thrive in Mortal because of the lack of safe farming spots and full loot.

If SV was honest and said: "We don´t think our design works, we need a seperate PvE experience." I would argue that that´s unnecessary, but I could at least respect their honesty. They are not doing that however.

Haven was a bandaid on a broken game. It is much easier to claim that the "depth, complexity and hardcoreness" or your game drove away players than ... shit execution. Bugs, bugs and a terrible UI. Non-functioning AI. A flagging system that protects those that exploit it.

SV has the chance to come clean about this and fix Mortal Online 2 to a state where covering up it´s failures is unnecessary. That would be good for the long term health of the game and it´s community.

---

I specifically made the second post to gather ideas on how to bring the game to state that allows players to learn it´s mechanics intuitively. A combination of putting work into the UI, using time to have all skill descriptions be informative and helpful and working out a responsive hint-system would be enough to give any new player a decent understanding of what is happening.

Further knowledge will be found on youtube, steam guides and within the help chat.

Again this kind of approach works for games that are just as difficult to learn as Mortal Online 2.

---

I also want to point out that blaming RPK for the failure of the steam launch is another smoke screen. SV fucked it up. It is as simple as this. There was a lot of feedback on what needed to be done from the community and SV did not listen. Instead they showed an incredible lack of understanding of their own game.

There are a lot of ways to keep a constant slaughter from happening. A PvE server like Haven is not necessary at all. MO2 is a game about player interaction, both good and bad. Nearly all stories that people tell each other (some in this very thread) speak of the combination of freedom and vulnerabilty that drew them into the game.

My question is: Why do you assume that this won´t happen to others? Especially if the game does not break down every 2 minutes like it did back in the day?

I think there is a market of hardcore players that don´t need Haven for Mortal Online 2. It´s niche, but big enough to populate the world and give us years of fun.

 

[Teknique]

@Teknique
Albion and EVE are both good games in their own right, but follow a different design. Essentially they both have PvE zones, in EVEs case with little risk and Albion with zero risk. That can work, but I think it´s less enjoyable than Mortals design (no safezones - until Haven). It also offers other problems like gold farmers, which will never thrive in Mortal because of the lack of safe farming spots and full loot.

If SV was honest and said: "We don´t think our design works, we need a seperate PvE experience." I would argue that that´s unnecessary, but I could at least respect their honesty. They are not doing that however.

Haven was a bandaid on a broken game. It is much easier to claim that the "depth, complexity and hardcoreness" or your game drove away players than ... shit execution. Bugs, bugs and a terrible UI. Non-functioning AI. A flagging system that protects those that exploit it.

SV has the chance to come clean about this and fix Mortal Online 2 to a state where covering up it´s failures is unnecessary. That would be good for the long term health of the game and it´s community.

---

I specifically made the second post to gather ideas on how to bring the game to state that allows players to learn it´s mechanics intuitively. A combination of putting work into the UI, using time to have all skill descriptions be informative and helpful and working out a responsive hint-system would be enough to give any new player a decent understanding of what is happening.

Further knowledge will be found on youtube, steam guides and within the help chat.

Again this kind of approach works for games that are just as difficult to learn as Mortal Online 2.

---

I also want to point out that blaming RPK for the failure of the steam launch is another smoke screen. SV fucked it up. It is as simple as this. There was a lot of feedback on what needed to be done from the community and SV did not listen. Instead they showed an incredible lack of understanding of their own game.

There are a lot of ways to keep a constant slaughter from happening. A PvE server like Haven is not necessary at all. MO2 is a game about player interaction, both good and bad. Nearly all stories that people tell each other (some in this very thread) speak of the combination of freedom and vulnerabilty that drew them into the game.

My question is: Why do you assume that this won´t happen to others? Especially if the game does not break down every 2 minutes like it did back in the day?

I think there is a market of hardcore players that don´t need Haven for Mortal Online 2. It´s niche, but big enough to populate the world and give us years of fun.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote.

I more just don't understand.

Assuming no flagging like you suggest, no safe zones, i'll extend that to guarded cities. In what way would you prevent a constant slaughter from happening?

I agree that there is likely a better way than a separate pve server.

I'll circle back to Albion, i'm sure we would be looking at a dead game if the second you left town there was 50+ tier 8s waiting to kill you.

 

[Amadman]

A lot of times vets are blamed for camping new areas and such. And while this may be the case at times, many new players also seem to have a tendency to do this as well. Its not a bad thing since this is a pvp game after all. But even those players are doing themselves and the game a disservice by jumping straight in without being prepared.

A place like haven gives new players more than just a chance to figure out the game, it also allows them time to get invested in the game a bit before they are thrown to the wolves, bugs, ect..

In the end you want players that would enjoy the game as intended to give it a fair chance before dismissing it.

 

[JimLit]

SV probably shouldn't sacrifice a new player experience, potentially at a big cost to player retention, for a vocal minority that will still play the game anyway.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

I don't disagree with anything you wrote.

I more just don't understand.

Assuming no flagging like you suggest, no safe zones, i'll extend that to guarded cities. In what way would you prevent a constant slaughter from happening?



I'll circle back to Albion, i'm sure we would be looking at a dead game if the second you left town there was 50+ tier 8s waiting to kill you.

Players. Please, consider not circling back to Albion, if you think it's making your point more clear, it is not.

A lot of times vets are blamed for camping new areas and such. And while this may be the case at times, many new players also seem to have a tendency to do this as well. Its not a bad thing since this is a pvp game after all. But even those players are doing themselves and the game a disservice by jumping straight in without being prepared.

A place like haven gives new players more than just a chance to figure out the game, it also allows them time to get invested in the game a bit before they are thrown to the wolves, bugs, ect..

In the end you want players that would enjoy the game as intended to give it a fair chance before dismissing it.

You seem to be saying that new players like to jump straight into pvp, but shouldn't be allowed to. I can't believe I'm even having this discussion on a Mortal Online forum. Congrats SV.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

SV probably shouldn't sacrifice a new player experience, potentially at a big cost to player retention, for a vocal minority that will still play the game anyway.

SV should make a genuinely great new player experience, not a shitty protected bubble that denies the rules of the main game, attempt to retain loyal paying customers, and not put their hopes on people that may never come and don't enjoy or understand the core design to begin with.