Theoretical Most Common Human Bloodline Mixes || MO2

[Tuhtram]

This is highly OOC content, but we still don't have a lore section, for some reason. If we get one, it should be moved there. As this is potentially decent info for roleplayers, however, I think it's the best place to chuck it. In MO1 I made a thread called 'Theoretical Most Common Human Bloodline Mixes' where I explored the most common bloodline mixes we'd likely have seen. With significant changes to the lore and some more explanation from Mats, I think a redo is in order.

(Note: I do not see this as a list of what's a 'better background' for a character. All ancestral mixes are valid as character backstories, even those which may not be necessarily common. People realistically will have travelled and wound up in all sorts of areas.)

• 1. Tindremene/Khurite
  • My old reasoning of their long history, Khurites seeking offspring with visitors/outsiders (who would most likely be Tindremenes), and frequent interactions still stands but has been further expanded on—the Tindremenes invaded Morin Khur 30 years ago, and some Tindremenes live there now. It stands to reason that people with Tindremene and Khurite parents in Morin Khur aren't unheard of now—specifically a young generation below 30 years of age. (Though considering the cultural war between the Tindremenes and the Khurites, they may not necessarily be the most well-liked by either side in the contested area of Morin Khur.)
• 2. Tindremene/Kallard
  • A specific potential mixed-ethnicity character from Varborg, Bárd Laglegur, is mentioned to have sailed to Tindrem in the new lore and claims ancestry from a Tindremene general. Varborg is a territory that Tindrem took over, and Mats specified that Varborgian Tindremenes had their own culture and presence in Nordveld. Many fled north to Branth during the Irruption, but it's clear that someone has been resettling Varborg since Bárd Laglegur is/was the current ruler after the Irruption. The population is likely a large mixture of Tindremenes and Kallards, especially in the modern era, and based on titles they engage in some parts of Kallardian culture. This may potentially mean that even if Varborg has managed to stay primarily Tindremene, there are likely a scattering of Tindremenes from Branth in the far north to Varborg in the south.
• 3. Tindremene/Sidoian
  • If one doesn't know the new lore this may seem surprising (especially considering in my old thread I'd put it at the very bottom) but specific attention was given to the fact that a decent Sidoian population existed within Tindrem, and a few entire families of them are within the nobilita caste. This isn't mentioned for Kallards, Khurites, Sarducaans, etc. which leads me to believe they're likely the largest non-Tindremene human ethnic group within Tindrem's walls, which combined with their citizenship makes their intermixing very likely among the highest and lowest castes, and all of the castes in-between.
• 4. Sarducaan/Khurite
  • Since the Bediai Khurites are present in Sarducaa and have a long and storied history there, this is somewhat likely. They're mentioned to have been seclusive, which knocks them down a peg, but it's still very easy to picture many Sarducaans having Bediai ancestry, and many Bediai having Sarducaan ancestry.
• 5. Kallard/Khurite
  • There's an ethnic group in Nordveld of Khurites known as the Gakti, which automatically places the potential for mixing higher than that of groups who don't have a very long geographic proximity to one another. (This one could go up or down dramatically depending on lore surrounding the Gakti and their interactions with the Kallards.)
• 6. Sarducaan/Tindremene
  • Historically a large group of Tindremenes took up residence in Sarducaa, particularly in Beth Jeddah. However, Beth Jeddah suffered massive causalities during the Irruption. Despite this, I didn't put it at rock bottom as Varborg is somewhere in the southwest of Nordveld, giving the Varborgian Tindremenes access to Sarducaa potentially above even the Kallards. Trade ports also exist in eastern Sarducaa, which gives possibilities of offspring with Tindremenes/Sarducaans in Sarducaa, as well as Meduli and Tindrem.
• 7. Sarducaan/Kallard
  • Kallards were found in Sarducaa fairly frequently in MO1. Varborgian Tindremenes, Kallards, and possibly Gakti Khurites are likely the most common visitors to Sarducaa, since they can get there by land.
• 8. Sidoian/Sarducaan
  • No interaction between them is mentioned, but there were a large amount of Sidoians in Sarducaa in MO1 which increases the possibility. Geographically there's nothing stopping Sidoians from reaching Sarducaa from Sidoia, and since Sidoians are exiled from Sidoian society if they break enough rules, there may have been a slow trickle over time of these outcasts to Sarducaa since it's the only civilized area they can realistically reach without having to go through the dangerous jungles of Myrland. Pash (and maybe Kwar Migdal) is the most likely place you'd find a large concentration of Sidoians, considering this outflow of Sidoians from Sidoia have to be going somewhere. (Though the Sidoian population in Tindrem city may also be a draw for these exiles, and shouldn't be ignored either.)
• 9. Khurite/Sidoian
  • No interaction between the groups is mentioned, which puts them fairly low on the list. Would likely have happened within Tindremic or Sarducaan societies, which would place the chances at lower than most other mixes.
• 10. Sidoian/Kallard
  • Some admixture is possible, but little is mentioned to be drawing them together. No settlements or populations of Kallards and Sidoians are mentioned to be near eachother. Most likely they'd be from Sarducaa or Myrland, with more land and obstacles isolating their major populations than Khurites and Sidoians I placed this at the bottom.

A special note can be made for Humans (particularly Tindremenes, Khurites, and potentially Sidoians) with Thursar ancestry. While this isn't mechanically possible, it is actually mentioned and would be extremely rare:

Those who stayed in Tindrem enjoyed a lifetime of previously unreachable social conditions, although for the vast majority of Thursar this lasted for just a single generation due to the incapacity for having children. The few families who could are easily numbered, and today their ancestors would be difficult to identify based on looks alone.

 

[Najwalaylah]

Some comments on Tuhtram's take on Race & Clade Mixing, and the first one is that I hope MO2 players realise how lucky they are to have him here.

1. Tindremene/Khurite

• My old reasoning of their long history, Khurites seeking offspring with visitors/outsiders...

That history makes (always has made) me speculate that it's not just that Khurite men encourage visitors to sleep with their wives, but that each Khurite man considers giving the wife of his host, wherever he may go, a chance at a baby to be the perfect offering in return for hospitality-- much like a bouquet of flowers or a bottle of wine. They do seem to get around.

2. Tindremene/Kallard

• A specific potential mixed-ethnicity character from Varborg, Bárd Laglegur, is mentioned to have sailed to Tindrem in the new lore and claims ancestry from a Tindremene general. Varborg is a territory that Tindrem took over, and Mats specified that Varborgian Tindremenes had their own culture and presence in Nordveld. Many fled north to Branth during the Irruption, but it's clear that someone has been resettling Varborg since Bárd Laglegur is/was the current ruler after the Irruption. The population is likely a large mixture of Tindremenes and Kallards, especially in the modern era, and based on titles they engage in some parts of Kallardian culture. This may potentially mean that even if Varborg has managed to stay primarily Tindremene, there are likely a scattering of Tindremenes from Branth in the far north to Varborg in the south.

And with regard to the history of Mortal Online 1, and of Wessex within that game, including the Races most often chosen (initially) by blue-blooded gentry, I always thought of them as something close to this: Tindremised Kallards, much like RL Romanised Britons.

4. Sarducaan/Khurite

• Since the Bediai Khurites are present in Sarducaa and have a long and storied history there, this is somewhat likely. They're mentioned to have been seclusive, which knocks them down a peg, but it's still very easy to picture many Sarducaans having Bediai ancestry, and many Bediai having Sarducaan ancestry.

Based on Mortal Online 2 character avatar models, these two Races in their unmixed forms look much less alike now than they used to in MO1. Khurites used to resemble South Asians more than East Asians.

7. Sarducaan/Kallard

• Kallards were found in Sarducaa fairly frequently in MO1. Varborgian Tindremenes, Kallards, and possibly Gakti Khurites are likely the most common visitors to Sarducaa, since they can get there by land.

And, as I said (only 49$ making a joke about 'The 13th Warrior") to you in the time of MO1, probably every 13th Kallard is a Sarducaan. Some day, perhaps, we'll see Nordveld and find out.

8. Sidoian/Sarducaan

• No interaction between them is mentioned, but there were a large amount of Sidoians in Sarducaa in MO1 which increases the possibility. Geographically there's nothing stopping Sidoians from reaching Sarducaa from Sidoia, and since Sidoians are exiled from Sidoian society if they break enough rules, there may have been a slow trickle over time of these outcasts to Sarducaa since it's the only civilized area they can realistically reach without having to go through the dangerous jungles of Myrland. ...

Prompts me to imagine what they say in Sidoiia: "Sarducaa-- you don't have to be crazy to go there, but it helps!"

From Sarducaa's tallest mountains, I can easily imagine the adventurous who were (optionally) also tired of sand getting 'everywhere', looking down to the North (it used to be North in MO1) on the jungle fringe of the continent, and plunging down the ramp to the Great Green (HELL) below. (Or, as I once did, swimming around to it and walking here and there on the beaches. In fact, I circumnavigated the MO1 continent of Sarducaa-- out of sheer, cussed [AI]-ness-- except for the sea right under the bridge, which was made impossible because impassible.) I don't know why a sane Jungle-dweller would do the reverse unless exiled or driven to find traces of the Shinarians, but then maybe the Sidoiians found in Sarducaa are exiles, already?

In any case, the dangerous Jungle of Myrland had a coast, at least, with a Shinarian structure on it. If that's what Sidoiians were looking for, then that's a place where they would have found it, at some point. Right?

A special note can be made for Humans (particularly Tindremenes, Khurites, and potentially Sidoians) with Thursar ancestry. While this isn't mechanically possible, it is actually mentioned and would be extremely rare:

I consider how long ago this rarity would have started, and calculate that it would be increasingly less rare, over time. The first Thursar were around centuries ago.

"The few families who could [have children; their founders, that is] are easily numbered, and today their ancestors would be difficult to identify based on looks alone." True, so far as stated, but nothing succeeds like success, and reproductive success is no exception. If your ancestors were exceptions to a tendency to be infertile, there's no reason to think you'd have inherited infertility from them-- especially not after many generations over the years.

I've always wondered if, conceptually, the Risar were not very fertile with each other (due to inbreeding). Their descendants by way of (above-ground-dwelling) Humans they could interbreed with-- even if very few of those could go on to have children of their own-- might have had a lot of hybrid vigor, including ample fertility. This seems espeically possible to me if-- as I seem to remember-- Mats said that Nave was a place where evolution was amplified, and almost LaMarckian.

 

[Tuhtram]

Some comments on Tuhtram's take on Race & Clade Mixing, and the first one is that I hope MO2 players realise how lucky they are to have him here.

❤

...

I've wondered this some too, they might just be more... seeking to have children with many people as a culture (particularly in areas like the steppes, not sure how much of that would transfer to permanent settlements like Morin Khur and Toxai where they probably have to worry less about inbreeding too much).

...

Definitely could be, though. We know that Varborgian armor looked like this in SV's mind. But that was also Post-Mats, so not sure if it was one of those things where Mats is sitting in the background staring at something entirely wrong—but my sneaking suspicion is that the Varborgians are basically the 'Medieval Aesthetic'—maybe even speaking something similar to English or German. In one of the old threads Mats used some specific language to imply the whole region of Varborg was at least partially populated by (formerly?) 'full' Tindremenes:

Secondly, Tindrem has lost a number of villages and provinces consisting of relatively .."pure" Tindremenes both before and after the Conflux. Most notably the entire province of Varborg in Nordveld after the fall of Tekton's Bridge during the Conflux (the second part of the Nordveld story that was never published). The Province of Varborg is of course especially interesting as it split up from the Tindremic Empire at a time when "the old ways" were still active and alive, and has undergone a parallel development ever since with very little contact with what then became the Tindremic Provinces.

(And my further 'out there' suspicion is that it'd be a visual surprise for people who weren't paying attention to walk into a new region and essentially see something that leans more heavily into 'medieval' than 'Roman'. Starting off in Myrland instead of an area like Varborg would be a strategic way to keep people from settling into a 'this is a generic fantasy world' mentality, but this region could theoretically hit those aesthetic points even harder than Fabernum. Could be anywhere from Arthurian to who-knows-what.)

...

Considering the later point you made, and has been on my mind too actually, about MO's setting having quicker evolution—You'd think that diversity, one of the driving factors of evolution, would be more intense too. I'm not necessarily a fan of MO2's current method of locking humans into a very tight range of hair and skin tones, considering that and the history of many of these groups.

Khurites span a massive range of land from Eastern Myrland to Sarducaa's deserts to potentially far northern Nordveld (if the Gakti linguistic inspiration is any clue, Gakti is a Sami word for a type of garment—given their location in Nordveld I don't think this is a coincidence). They're probably visually the most diverse group out there, and some Khurites probably look so different from one another you likely wouldn't guess they're both considered Khurites.

So in my head, the MO1 'South Asian'-y models are valid, but the 'East Asian'-y models are just as valid too. Their strongest inspirations seem to come from the combination of Central Asian, East Asian, Southeast Asian, pre-Columbian North American, and pre-Columbian South American—with other inspirations possibly in Middle Eastern nomadic groups and Northern European nomadic groups. That's such an extreme range to begin with that I feel like they're probably the least homogenous-looking human race—and that's without considering their cultural affinity for having babies with outsiders.

...

It'd make sense, especially in Southern Nordveld. Considering the above about Varborg, some mixture of Tindremene/Sarducaan/Kallard may not even be uncommon in northern Sarducaa/Southern Nordveld.

...

Yeah, Mats did actually imply that Sidoians have supposedly taken an interest in those ruins. I wonder how they deal with the Sators, though. I'm kind-of sad that the new ruins don't have the glowy magical bits and weird almost sci-fi structure, so I'm holding out hope that beneath what we have access to it'll start to look more like the intense ruins of a terrifying magical society deeper down—like someone else (maybe even Shinarian descendants), much later and with cruder tools, built up over Shinarian ruins and that's all we have access to right now.

...

You're very right about that. Mats did actually mention something very interesting about the mixing between clades:

Just to be clear, the races in MO are grouped into clades. In general this means the races in a clade share a common ancestor and belong to the same species, in turn meaning they can reproduce within that clade. A Khurite and a Sidoian can have children. A Khurite and a Veela can't. The Thursar are special, as they are hybrids and mostly sterile.

This makes me wonder about the origins of Risar even more:

The Thursars also share the [Risars'] inability to understand magic and thus share the same fear the [Risar] have for the arcane, something that can probably be traced back to the origins of the [Risar] race.

Combined with Mats mentioning this in an old interview:

On top of this, the Gods or rare magic have historically interfered with the evolutionary process although it is nowadays forbidden by the gods themselves by the ancient Rule of Dawning. However, if one were to break that rule, this kind of manipulation must still obey certain primary rules of nature, and it costs a lot of energy. In essence, the more a creature is to be changed, by forcing evolution in a certain direction or by speeding it up (or by reversing it), the harder it becomes and the more energy is required. If a God for instance wanted to create an entirely new type of creature from nothing the energy cost would be tremendous, while modifying or combining already existent species according to their hereditary possibilities would be much cheaper.

[...]

Due to the nature of genetic heritage (a creatures or persons Sheut in the MO world, meaning core or shadow –their physical form), creatures may undergo relatively dramatic changes in a short time. Over some generations, a species may re-shape its arms to fins to adapt to a life underwater for instance, although naturally adapting by evolving an extra pair of limbs would be very rare as there would be no rudimentary limbs to start from: it would have to happen as a result of a mutation or as an atavism (meaning characteristics from a much earlier stage in evolution would appear again). On the other hand divine intervention, life-manipulation rituals or controlled breeding opens up the possibility for recalling such features on a wider scale, although that knowledge together with the conscious creation of new species are regulated and forbidden by the Gods as mentioned before.

[...]

However, before the Rule of Dawning several creations saw the light of day as a result of forced manipulation by the Gods themselves or by intelligent species wielding great power. Thus, manipulated creatures combining different traits between evolutionary branches such as Griffin or Minotaurs appeared, and those that weren't overspecialized for their 'purpose' managed to survive the coming events and produce offspring, leading to new species and races over time as they too adapted to the environment. Likewise, the majority of 'intelligent', in this case meaning conscious, creatures has been dawned in similar events requiring even more power, although a minority is a product of natural evolution.

You do have to wonder about the origins of the Risar if they have more genetically in common with Humans than Oghmir. And the Oghmir were said to potentially have been changed by Oghma from a group of cave-dwelling humans into what they are now. Why do Risar fear magic? Why can they interbreed with humans? If most 'intelligent' species were created in MO's universe, rather than naturally evolving, and it costs less energy to create something from an existing species template—then the fact that Risar can mix into (maybe more fitting to say 'mix back into') human bloodlines may not be all that much of a mystery.

 

[Ibarruri]

❤


I've wondered this some too, they might just be more... seeking to have children with many people as a culture (particularly in areas like the steppes, not sure how much of that would transfer to permanent settlements like Morin Khur and Toxai where they probably have to worry less about inbreeding too much).

Definitely could be, though. We know that Varborgian armor looked like this in SV's mind. But that was also Post-Mats, so not sure if it was one of those things where Mats is sitting in the background staring at something entirely wrong—but my sneaking suspicion is that the Varborgians are basically the 'Medieval Aesthetic'—maybe even speaking something similar to English or German. In one of the old threads Mats used some specific language to imply the whole region of Varborg was at least partially populated by (formerly?) 'full' Tindremenes:


(And my further 'out there' suspicion is that it'd be a visual surprise for people who weren't paying attention to walk into a new region and essentially see something that leans more heavily into 'medieval' than 'Roman'. Starting off in Myrland instead of an area like Varborg would be a strategic way to keep people from settling into a 'this is a generic fantasy world' mentality, but this region could theoretically hit those aesthetic points even harder than Fabernum. Could be anywhere from Arthurian to who-knows-what.)

Considering the later point you made, and has been on my mind too actually, about MO's setting having quicker evolution—You'd think that diversity, one of the driving factors of evolution, would be more intense too. I'm not necessarily a fan of MO2's current method of locking humans into a very tight range of hair and skin tones, considering that and the history of many of these groups.

Khurites span a massive range of land from Eastern Myrland to Sarducaa's deserts to potentially far northern Nordveld (if the Gakti linguistic inspiration is any clue, Gakti is a Sami word for a type of garment—given their location in Nordveld I don't think this is a coincidence). They're probably visually the most diverse group out there, and some Khurites probably look so different from one another you likely wouldn't guess they're both considered Khurites.

So in my head, the MO1 'South Asian'-y models are valid, but the 'East Asian'-y models are just as valid too. Their strongest inspirations seem to come from the combination of Central Asian, East Asian, Southeast Asian, pre-Columbian North American, and pre-Columbian South American—with other inspirations possibly in Middle Eastern nomadic groups and Northern European nomadic groups. That's such an extreme range to begin with that I feel like they're probably the least homogenous-looking human race—and that's without considering their cultural affinity for having babies with outsiders.

It'd make sense, especially in Southern Nordveld. Considering the above about Varborg, some mixture of Tindremene/Sarducaan/Kallard may not even be uncommon in northern Sarducaa/Southern Nordveld.

Yeah, Mats did actually imply that Sidoians have supposedly taken an interest in those ruins. I wonder how they deal with the Sators, though. I'm kind-of sad that the new ruins don't have the glowy magical bits and weird almost sci-fi structure, so I'm holding out hope that beneath what we have access to it'll start to look more like the intense ruins of a terrifying magical society deeper down—like someone else (maybe even Shinarian descendants), much later and with cruder tools, built up over Shinarian ruins and that's all we have access to right now.

You're very right about that. Mats did actually mention something very interesting about the mixing between clades:

This makes me wonder about the origins of Risar even more:

Combined with Mats mentioning this in an old interview:

You do have to wonder about the origins of the Risar if they have more genetically in common with Humans than Oghmir. And the Oghmir were said to potentially have been changed by Oghma from a group of cave-dwelling humans into what they are now. Why do Risar fear magic? Why can they interbreed with humans? If most 'intelligent' species were created in MO's universe, rather than naturally evolving, and it costs less energy to create something from an existing species template—then the fact that Risar can mix into (maybe more fitting to say 'mix back into') human bloodlines may not be all that much of a mystery.

I find this debate very interesting.
However, I must respectfully add that I do not believe at all that diversity is a quick path to evolution.
In my opinion, it is the quickest path to the degeneration and ruin of ancestral peoples, as history has undoubtedly shown.
I think that the miscegenation in Myrland has not borne the desired results for some.

 

[gavroche3]

You do have to wonder about the origins of the Risar if they have more genetically in common with Humans than Oghmir. And the Oghmir were said to potentially have been changed by Oghma from a group of cave-dwelling humans into what they are now. Why do Risar fear magic? Why can they interbreed with humans? If most 'intelligent' species were created in MO's universe, rather than naturally evolving, and it costs less energy to create something from an existing species template—then the fact that Risar can mix into (maybe more fitting to say 'mix back into') human bloodlines may not be all that much of a mystery.

There's still plenty to speculate about the Risar's creation, though. Let's take the Oghmir creation myth as given, and work with what we know about magic-evolution.

Why do the Risar fear magic and the Oghmir seem to be one of the most magic-capable clades? It could be that the Oghmir creation was less traumatic. In fact, the Oghmir account of their creation seems pretty rosy, given the widespread veneration of Oghma.

It's possible that the Risar were created not from something like voluntarily drinking the blood of a god, but something more akin to being forced against their will to submit to some sort of ritual. Perhaps if the individuals involved reject the evolution, then some side effects manifest.

I have more thoughts on the creation of Risars, but that's probably better left for a thread separate from Human bloodline mixes.

 

[Raknor]

the Oghmir seem to be one of the most magic-capable clades?

Is this cannon? I always took it as an unintended side effect of having magic scale out of INT and the game having no other stat capable of demonstrating the great engineering feats of the Huerghar.

EDIT: Came back to edit this and say that it is indeed cannon as confirmed by Mats in discord. Leaving his quote here for posterity

The cave-dwelling Húergar were famous for their extraordinary skills in material knowledge, construction and intricate mechanisms, which by many seemed to be pure magic. However, the numerous guilds or caucuses dealing with the various fields were secretive and their rituals and practices largely unknown. They do seem to have had, or have, a very organized and ritualistic approach to crafts, including any thaumaturgy. It looks as if the Húergar kin on the outside, including their Blainn cousins, have the same predisposition towards magic affinity, although with less restrictions (and power?) of the underworld community.

 

[gavroche3]

Is this cannon? I always took it as an unintended side effect of having magic scale out of INT and the game having no other stat capable of demonstrating the great engineering feats of the Huerghar.

I'm not sure it's canon, I might just be reading too much into the int stat, so you're probably right. I want to say Henrik may have said something about it on stream, but I actually don't know for sure. I'll see if I can find it, but the Thursdays streams are so long heh.

 

[Najwalaylah]

There's still plenty to speculate about the Risar's creation

There's always the (updated) speculation I made to @Tuhtram back in 2013 & MO1, when he asked A Question With Implications: What Do the Huergar Eat?
(Archived):

"I'm shocked that no-one has suggested the obvious:​

• 'They' (The Oghmir, meaning the ancestral, cave-dwelling Huérgar) used to steal (surface-dwelling) Human children and eat them,
• then started breeding a captive Human population, (With or without interbreeding with them, themselves. If it ever was that no longer seems to be possible, maybe due to genetic drift.)
• those humans eventually escaped after many generations of warped & warping existence to become the Risar-- which would explain neatly why Risar and Humans can interbreed, and (trivially) why Risar think nothing of keeping slaves (among) themselves.

* * *​

#RealReasonWeHaveRisar "​

[EDIT] PS Now, I am going to re-watch Bone Tomahawk, soon, if I can find it.

 

[Deleted member 44]

What about Veela/Risar?

 

[Najwalaylah]

What about Veela/Risar?

That's another thread that Tuhtram should make. "Why are the Alvarin unlike anything else on this PLANET", or something.
(He knows why I think they're so different. "Your Mother? OurMother.".)

 

[Tuhtram]

What about Veela/Risar?

Mats explained that the mixture outside of clades is impossible, aside from Risar/Humans. You can’t get a Human/Alvarin, Alvarin/Risar, Oghmir/Alvarin, etc. in the lore, half-Alvs don’t exist.

Which does make the Risar/Human intermixing that much more fascinating.

That's another thread that Tuhtram should make. "Why are the Alvarin unlike anything else on this PLANET", or something.
(He knows why I think they're so different. "Your Mother? OurMother.".)

I have my thoughts, and I think our old maternal vessel keyslapping may have had a grain of truth in it. The lore of a certain magical race in the Witcher comes to mind.

Aen Elle/Aen Sidhe | Alv/Aes Sith

Ancient Alviens

I'm not sure it's canon, I might just be reading too much into the int stat, so you're probably right. I want to say Henrik may have said something about it on stream, but I actually don't know for sure. I'll see if I can find it, but the Thursdays streams are so long heh.

Although Gav was there for the discussion in Discord, just wanted to clarify Mats explained recently that the Huergar are indeed magical:

“The cave-dwelling Húergar were famous for their extraordinary skills in material knowledge, construction and intricate mechanisms, which by many seemed to be pure magic. However, the numerous guilds or caucuses dealing with the various fields were secretive and their rituals and practices largely unknown. They do seem to have had, or have, a very organized and ritualistic approach to crafts, including any thaumaturgy. It looks as if the Húergar kin on the outside, including their Blainn cousins, have the same predisposition towards magic affinity, although with less restrictions (and power?) of the underworld community.”

There's still plenty to speculate about the Risar's creation, though. Let's take the Oghmir creation myth as given, and work with what we know about magic-evolution.

Why do the Risar fear magic and the Oghmir seem to be one of the most magic-capable clades? It could be that the Oghmir creation was less traumatic. In fact, the Oghmir account of their creation seems pretty rosy, given the widespread veneration of Oghma.

It's possible that the Risar were created not from something like voluntarily drinking the blood of a god, but something more akin to being forced against their will to submit to some sort of ritual. Perhaps if the individuals involved reject the evolution, then some side effects manifest.

I have more thoughts on the creation of Risars, but that's probably better left for a thread separate from Human bloodline mixes.

I think what you suggest is very possible, and that’s what’s been kicking around my head too. Who/what did this to them? And why does it seem like that gave them such intense cultural scars that to this day they fear and can’t understand magic? Were they created as machines for war by a magical society and thus prevented from accessing magic? Because it’s not only the fear we have to consider, it’s that they were “created” to not be able to grasp magic casting, despite—as you say—very likely having been made with magic.

That in itself is potentially very telling.

 

[gavroche3]

I think what you suggest is very possible, and that’s what’s been kicking around my head too. Who/what did this to them? And why does it seem like that gave them such intense cultural scars that to this day they fear and can’t understand magic? Were they created as machines for war by a magical society and thus prevented from accessing magic? Because it’s not only the fear we have to consider, it’s that they were “created” to not be able to grasp magic casting, despite—as you say—very likely having been made with magic.

That in itself is potentially very telling.

Do we have confirmation that their inaptitude for magic is intentional?

Because, while I think this is the most likely case, I don't know if we can rule out it being accidental. I kind of want to believe that their creation was somehow different/wrong relative to other clades. That their creator had to overcome either their own lack of knowledge/experience magically evolving species, or had to do it in secret with limited resources, or facing active opposition. In any of these cases, you could have the magical process not working as intended and kind of burning out the magic motor, so to speak, in the new clade. Sort of like evolution by brute magic force, as opposed to careful crafting and planning (as I'd like to believe is the Oghmir case).

 

[Tuhtram]

Do we have confirmation that their inaptitude for magic is intentional?

Because, while I think this is the most likely case, I don't know if we can rule out it being accidental. I kind of want to believe that their creation was somehow different/wrong relative to other clades. That their creator had to overcome either their own lack of knowledge/experience magically evolving species, or had to do it in secret with limited resources, or facing active opposition. In any of these cases, you could have the magical process not working as intended and kind of burning out the magic motor, so to speak, in the new clade. Sort of like evolution by brute magic force, as opposed to careful crafting and planning (as I'd like to believe is the Oghmir case).

Yeah it might not've been intentional. We don't really know what powers/agents went into their creation, and what sort of logic those powers/agents operate on. Admittedly I posted that really quickly as I was getting ready for work, so the post didn't go through its usual proofreading I like to do to make sure my messages are coming across as intended. You're right, we don't know if it's intentional.

Just as an example, the Gods may not think like people in any capacity. Someone could've asked for something with a completely different intention from a god, and gotten... well, what they got.

 

[Najwalaylah]

Someone could've asked for something with a completely different intention from a god, and gotten... well, what they got.

That would be consistent with folklore since forever. It's the trope in the Monkey's Paw. "Be careful what you ask for; you might get it."


[EDIT]: My 666th post.