Murderers Should Get Permadeath

[Odsbodikins]

I disagree. There are plenty of games that are very popular that have "murderhobos" (cringe name tbh).

The are very many other real reasons thats limiting player retention.

There are indeed other games, which is why I think people who are interested in ONLY murderhobo play (and yes, I use the cringy name on purpose.) should play those games and get their "kill everything that moves" out there.

In MO, it does have an effect on player retention (never said it was the only factor in retention, but that's for another convo), as there are players who are farless stubborn than me who can't even farm a few walkers in order to level and make their play viable, and this includes new players interested in PVP who are still working on managing the UI for one reason or another who leave and never return because they can't get enough peace to get the gold or clades to succeed even on a small scale.

Further, like it or not, there will be younger players, and influencing the younger players to go beyond the murderhobo mindset will further widen the gameplay as people get the chance to explore more of the game and find more content to bring back rarer materials etc.

There's nothing wrong with roaming and looking for guild tags or other roaming groups. Nothing wrong with open warfare against other players and guilds, particularly when TC comes in, but even before then I'm sure we're all aware of KOS lists and the like.

 

[Emdash]

Talking about that game Chronicles of Elyria. Yeah that was an epic fail and dude Caspian walked away with 10’s of millions of backers money and he blamed it on Covid why he shut the production down and fired his staff. Meanwhile StarVault being the underdogs that they are created MO2 in the heart of the pandemic.

Indeed. It doesn't help that some of the most high reaching games end up being basically a joke trailer and ideas and kick starter scams. In that case, MO2 is def the place to be. Don't worry, until the day I leave this place (or am banned!? You guys would never do that to me! I got respek on other game's forums so hopefully here, too!) I will continue to clamor for changes. Some people WILL BE ANGRY. Some people won't. Even if 10% gets thru, that's fine by me!

But yeah there are a lot of ideas from other games SV could steal, the spark not so much... but omg I got trolled hard by the phrase dynamic spawn. lol. I was thinking something so much cooler.

 

[MolagAmur]

There are indeed other games, which is why I think people who are interested in ONLY murderhobo play (and yes, I use the cringy name on purpose.) should play those games and get their "kill everything that moves" out there.

In MO, it does have an effect on player retention (never said it was the only factor in retention, but that's for another convo), as there are players who are farless stubborn than me who can't even farm a few walkers in order to level and make their play viable, and this includes new players interested in PVP who are still working on managing the UI for one reason or another who leave and never return because they can't get enough peace to get the gold or clades to succeed even on a small scale.

Further, like it or not, there will be younger players, and influencing the younger players to go beyond the murderhobo mindset will further widen the gameplay as people get the chance to explore more of the game and find more content to bring back rarer materials etc.

There's nothing wrong with roaming and looking for guild tags or other roaming groups. Nothing wrong with open warfare against other players and guilds, particularly when TC comes in, but even before then I'm sure we're all aware of KOS lists and the like.

I understand what you're saying. I really do. But I dont see a good change to prevent people from camping graveyards other then making them a safe zone.

In MO1 I thought it was cool that there wasn't any safe zone. You could gank someone in a back alley in a town or nobody would know. With all the changes towards the end of MO1 and now MO2 making guards stronger and adding more, removing red priests near towns, etc...it just makes me wonder why they don't just make towns and small areas around it a safe zone.

Yes safe zones are kinda lame blah blah. Darkfall did it and it was just fine imo and they didn't have what we have now with hundreds of discussions on people getting farmed before they can even get their bearings.

MO just tries to be unique from other games with a lot of things, but they haven't ever been able to mesh it well.

 

[Odsbodikins]

I understand what you're saying. I really do. But I dont see a good change to prevent people from camping graveyards other then making them a safe zone.

In MO1 I thought it was cool that there wasn't any safe zone. You could gank someone in a back alley in a town or nobody would know. With all the changes towards the end of MO1 and now MO2 making guards stronger and adding more, removing red priests near towns, etc...it just makes me wonder why they don't just make towns and small areas around it a safe zone.

Yes safe zones are kinda lame blah blah. Darkfall did it and it was just fine imo and they didn't have what we have now with hundreds of discussions on people getting farmed before they can even get their bearings.

MO just tries to be unique from other games with a lot of things, but they haven't ever been able to mesh it well.

TBF they still are working on adding many mechanics. Not making any place truly safe makes it easier in the future for the Devs to implement such mechanics as TC, which will let warring factions fight inside towns sans consequence.

I don't have a problem in general with people who chose to fight as their primary mode, but there are options that don't involve camping areas known to be set up for newer players. It's not a case of necesarily setting up something where "you murder, you automatically get permabanned from towns". Obviously that would be entirely broken. I was thinking more along the lines of going red to guards after a certain number of player murders, perhaps even on a town by town basis, similar to a lawless town not caring who kills who within the walls.

The current deterrents of being grey for a short time, or red with murder count timers is another option that could be beefed up, I wills ay it would need to mesh well with other systems such as reputation. with additional ways for players to pull themselves out of such a status. They made griefing by shield bump/drowning illegal with a warning after consecutive attacks. "Warning, you are about to be a murderhobo, kill one more player and you will lose stading with X town."

There is the raven bounty system now, but I don't see that being used well enough yet to make it a true deterrent in the way I think it's intended.

 

[Jatix]

My first game in the open pvp genre was actually permadeath. But give me permadeath for EVERYBODY. No guards. Players just get to grow a ballsack and try to survive. Not cower behind their guards in their safezone and cry that 'murderers' have it too easy, when they dont.

 

[Tashka]

But if you're going to go on a graveyard noob slapping spree then you should deal with the consequences. Dont like it.. dont camp graveyards and call it "PEE VEE PEE!"

We literally got attacked by a group of people in necro dungeon and from that fight alone i received two MCs.

Some places are ghost towns as it is, people who like PvP just avoid living in towns and prefer living off their strongholds. For a sizeable group, not being allowed into towns isn't even much of a punishment. All it does is make towns boring places devoid of all life except a few newbies. It's a shame. An RPK hanging out in a town is still one more guy hanging out in a town. It's one more guy you can socially interact with. By driving people away from towns, SV actually removes the peaceful social aspect from the game, because out of towns, the "social aspect" is mostly limited to PvP.

I say they should just remove MC and reputation after they implement TC and sieging. Let towns be lively places again, and let doogooders like Serverus here handle the matter of PK and punish the evildoers by destroing their property, like it should be handled in a sandbox game.

 

[MolagAmur]

We literally got attacked by a group of people in necro dungeon and from that fight alone i received two MCs.

Some places are ghost towns as it is, people who like PvP just avoid living in towns and prefer living off their strongholds. For a sizeable group, not being allowed into towns isn't even much of a punishment. All it does is make towns boring places devoid of all life except a few newbies. It's a shame. An RPK hanging out in a town is still one more guy hanging out in a town. It's one more guy you can socially interact with. By driving people away from towns, SV actually removes the peaceful social aspect from the game, because out of towns, the "social aspect" is mostly limited to PvP.

I say they should just remove MC and reputation after they implement TC and sieging. Let towns be lively places again, and let doogooders like Serverus here handle the matter of PK and punish the evildoers by destroing their property, like it should be handled in a sandbox game.

Well said. I truly think a lot of the complaints here would solve themselves this way if it were even more up to the players instead of some half-baked three strikes and you're out mechanics.

 

[Hodo]

Thats cool and all...but you will still get slapped just as often as you do now. As well as all the "graveyard noobs".

We used to have to be punched by people or hit by pigs for 15 minutes after each death. Murder was just as it is now.

How about instead of trying to punish anyone for their playstyle (its weird people who don't like pvp are so obsessed with punishment btw) instead we reward people for how they play. If you want to be a good guy and not murder anyone, I agree the game could give a bit more incentive to do so. However, there are currently already benefits of that.

I just don't understand what you people want. You want people who enjoy pvp to be punished constantly for doing a kill that you dont personally deem justified? Thats weird to me.

Lastly, we've been over this 1000 times but if we did your suggestion then everyone would be punished because one single fight against another guild can make you red in that region. Its a small brain fix imo. Similar to what we had with MO1.

There have been many ways of a better system suggested on these forums. SV should really play their own game and understand how to make a proper pvp system. They've have over a decade to figure that out...and here we are still forced with a basic ass idea.

I agree there should be rewards for NOT murdering random newbs in graveyards and streaming it or making a youtube clip video of it and calling it "leet peeveepee!"

If you want to RANDOMLY kill people declare war on their guild. Oh they dont have a guild well dont kill randos.

This would bring me to my current issue of the wardec system being hot trash. Need to have a murderer in it to force a wardec, no... how about just being able to force a wardec for a set amount of time. After that time has passed the war can be ended by either side. Once ended it can not be re-decced by that guild for a few days.



MO1 had other issues with its flagging system. From the yellow flag for fledging status to the red everywhere if you murder 5 people in some area no where near where you are now hated at. Do these backwards fantasy people have Cabalvision?


I am not a hardcore pvp'er here in MO but I am a murderhobo in other games and I am damned good at them.

 

[Hodo]

We literally got attacked by a group of people in necro dungeon and from that fight alone i received two MCs.

Some places are ghost towns as it is, people who like PvP just avoid living in towns and prefer living off their strongholds. For a sizeable group, not being allowed into towns isn't even much of a punishment. All it does is make towns boring places devoid of all life except a few newbies. It's a shame. An RPK hanging out in a town is still one more guy hanging out in a town. It's one more guy you can socially interact with. By driving people away from towns, SV actually removes the peaceful social aspect from the game, because out of towns, the "social aspect" is mostly limited to PvP.

I say they should just remove MC and reputation after they implement TC and sieging. Let towns be lively places again, and let doogooders like Serverus here handle the matter of PK and punish the evildoers by destroing their property, like it should be handled in a sandbox game.

I had a suggestion WAY back during combat beta or combat alpha during the earliest days of MO2. It went over like a lead balloon.

If you leave town radius, (guard range) you are grey, everyone is grey. No murder counts out in the wild.

If you murder NEAR town the punishment is FAR more harsh. No more waiting 5 minutes and waltzing into town blue. You're a known murderer in that town the guards will be on the look out for YOU. You will have a 8 hour cooldown for the murder count in that town.

But had you just waited and followed that prey outside of guard range and killed them far from town you wouldnt be a murderer.

Graveyards by extension would be covered under the town protection zone, strictly for the new player experience and give people a place to kind of start over if they need to.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Well, when one playstyle (murderhobo), by it's nature, makes another playstyle (PVE focus) terrible or barely playable at best, it's a bit of tit for tat isn't it?

But truly, why not punish people for indiscriminate killing? After all, as you've agreed that it comes from an older game mind set, where there were no consequences to being a murdehobo. Looking to give consequences isn't trying to make running around naked swinging a big sword a "terrible" playstyle, it's trying to stop the cromagnon style of play from ruining the game for the rest of us.

Rather than think that murderhobo is a great way to play a game, maybe try seeing that it makes the game much smaller by limiting player retention, as well as curtailing the potential to further deepen into the systems that require PVE play.

What tools would you give to the PVE player to make things equal? I don't think there's anything that wouldn't be game breaking at this stage, as even having a fast horse and a bear doesn't deter some murderhobos. Should SV add some sort of tank?

You have a very narrow and superfluous perspective of the narrative the game offers, its not that pvp'rs "makes the game terrible or barely playable at beast to any other playstyle", thats just not true.

Why would you punish people for playing the game, don't be stupid please. What is it you don't understand about the unforgiving nature of the world.

A good tool for noobs is making a better learning curve for example, so people like you don't get so upset about the transition haven-real world, and when they actually come out they have an idea what to expect in the world.

Sometimes i think a better tutorial should be ment for teaching carebear noobs about social behavior, because "some people" buys and installs this game expecting to have toggle pvp or have TESO mechanics, and its not going to happen. Whats so hard to understand about the game's concept?

Wilderness conflict and the lack of safety makes players excersize awareness and deal with the unforgiving nature of the world, so the gameplay circles around assuming the idea someone will definitely try to kill you for your shit, and thats not bad, thats the law of the world. So anyone may or may not try to gank you, its up to you if you are a naive cunt.

PVP is what makes the game flow, allways did. I think it is you the neandertal" here trying to push for something thats not for the game. Fuck your medieval behavioral hardbrakes and anti-pvp mechanics, go play candy crush if you can't deal with it.

I get away from unintended conflict most of the times, unless im not paying attention or semi afk why would it be so hard for you?

 

[Odsbodikins]

"You have a very narrow and superfluous perspective of the narrative the game offers, its not that pvp'rs "makes the game terrible or barely playable at beast to any other playstyle", thats just not true."

Matter of fact it is true. I play this game regularly, and trying to PVE can be LITERALLY unplayable because of mindless neanderthals running around with swords. You have a very narrow view of the game if combat is your only option and you can't deal witheven the IDEA that other playstyles MIGHT be valid and valued.

"Why would you punish people for playing the game, don't be stupid please."

PVE players are playing the game and getting punished just for existing by being targetted by murderhobos. Why punish them for playing an open world game?

"Sometimes i think a better tutorial should be ment for teaching carebear noobs about social behavior"

LMFAO, Look at you talking about SOCIAL behaviour? So randomly killing people just for being IN a game is a SOCIAL behaviour to you now? I think I understand you now. SOCIAL means to play WITH people, not kill them, sweet summer child.

"Wilderness conflict and the lack of safety makes players excersize awareness and deal with the unforgiving nature of the world, so the gameplay circles around assuming the idea someone will definitely try to kill you for your shit, and thats not bad, thats the law of the world. So anyone may or may not try to gank you, its up to you if you are a naive cunt."

Wilderness conflict can be avoided. Being ganked while you are simply collecting materials or travelling - while avoiding those wilderness hotspots mind you - is NOT a wiilderness encounter, it's an encounter with a rude cunt. That's the law of the world to me.

"PVP is what makes the game flow, allways did. I think it is you the neandertal" here trying to push for something thats not for the game. Fuck your medieval behavioral hardbrakes and anti-pvp mechanics, go play candy crush if you can't deal with it."

The description of the game begs to differ, as the more important parts of a game tend to be listed first in Western culture (From the Steam description on the store page):

A persistent sandbox world. No classes or levels. Train the skills you want for your own unique build. Player-driven trade, economy, and housing. Millions of crafting combinations. First-person immersive combat. Exploration. Bosses. Full loot, full PvP. The world of Nave is yours - who will you be?

Since PVP is about the 5 or 6 (7 or 8 depending on how you number your list), I would argue that the PVP only players are not playing the game the way it's being designed. Go fuck your own tiny self if your only thought is KILL in a game where KILL is not the only option. Fuck your cromagnon behavioural attitude, go play PUBG if you can't deal with cooperation.

"I get away from unintended conflict most of the times, unless im not paying attention or semi afk why would it be so hard for you?"

I get away from conflict most of the time too, doesn't mean I like letting you get away with being an ass. Why is it so hard for you to think that any playstyle that's not PVP is valid and rewarding play?

 

[Odsbodikins]

I had a suggestion WAY back during combat beta or combat alpha during the earliest days of MO2. It went over like a lead balloon.

If you leave town radius, (guard range) you are grey, everyone is grey. No murder counts out in the wild.

If you murder NEAR town the punishment is FAR more harsh. No more waiting 5 minutes and waltzing into town blue. You're a known murderer in that town the guards will be on the look out for YOU. You will have a 8 hour cooldown for the murder count in that town.

But had you just waited and followed that prey outside of guard range and killed them far from town you wouldnt be a murderer.

Graveyards by extension would be covered under the town protection zone, strictly for the new player experience and give people a place to kind of start over if they need to.

I do like this idea. Maybe extend the reach of the guards, but also teach them not to chase the walkers (for new players trying to clade).

Maybe have a transition zone where they can be reported, but guards are too far away to do anything, so that there is some area where they can conflict without being so close to towns.

This goes with my earlier thought on having murdercounts on a town by town basis. it would actually open up the map to players more, especially red players who need to get into town for materials. Go to another town or a lawless one and you are ok, murdernear Tindrem and Tindrem guards will target you.

But then there does need to be a key to unlock Tindrem again for that player, which is where the Rep can maybe be translated to some sort of probation (add 5 rep lose 1 MC in that area?).

 

[Tzone]

Theres pretty much not penalty for dying. You lose some shit gear thats about it in this game.


Strange people care so much about dying to PvP when it means nothing. Especially when you live in a blue town and dont have to walk 30 mins places.

 

[Odsbodikins]

Theres pretty much not penalty for dying. You lose some shit gear thats about it in this game.


Strange people care so much about dying to PvP when it means nothing. Especially when you live in a blue town and dont have to walk 30 mins places.

Mmmm, shit gear only?

Try:
1. Armor
2. Weapons/shield
3. Reagents
4. Horse and gear
5. Tools
6. Gathered items

It "means nothing" to a murderhobo because you wear nothing. It means a lot to those of us who go out for two hours gathering just to get ganked halfway home on a 5 on 1 gank.

 

[Deleted member 44]

Troll thread is troll thread. If not troll, nothing in this game is murder. You temporarily lose all your HP and then have it back moments later. Death is not really a thing.

 

[Tzone]

Mmmm, shit gear only?

Try:
1. Armor
2. Weapons/shield
3. Reagents
4. Horse and gear
5. Tools
6. Gathered items

It "means nothing" to a murderhobo because you wear nothing. It means a lot to those of us who go out for two hours gathering just to get ganked halfway home on a 5 on 1 gank.

My chars out gear most guilds. Townies just wear bone trash.

Its not about gear because I have about 200 hours sitting on fab bridge as a bandit. Asking people for their vender armor pants instead of killing them.

99% of the time the vender gear kid would rather delete the gear out of ego then roleplay.

You people start deleting your gear on sight as if I wasnt going to delete your trash my self.

So yeah your gear means nothing and is not a punishment for dying and we just delete it anyway. All dying is most of the time is a inconveince to a blue player. Even to a lot of red players who can just run back from a sh its only a inconveince.

Not really any punishment for losing yet carebears still whine about PvP only because their ego is hurt.

 

[Odsbodikins]

My chars out gear most guilds. Townies just wear bone trash.

Its not about gear because I have about 200 hours sitting on fab bridge as a bandit. Asking people for their vender armor pants instead of killing them.

99% of the time the vender gear kid would rather delete the gear out of ego then roleplay.

You people start deleting your gear on sight as if I wasnt going to delete your trash my self.

So yeah your gear means nothing and is not a punishment for dying and we just delete it anyway. All dying is most of the time is a inconveince to a blue player. Even to a lot of red players who can just run back from a sh its only a inconveince.

Not really any punishment for losing yet carebears still whine about PvP only because their ego is hurt.

I have never deleted gear, and ego isn't really a problem for me. I'm aware of my limits and my abilities. I don't need to make up ad hominem attacks to justify how my game is being limited by murderhobo trash.

I think I am learning something about WHY you argue so hard for such a PVP focus and "fuck the PVE" ideaology, however. You really don't have any abilities or thought process beyond "kill anything that moves." Fair enough, it's hard work being emotionally mature, and I guess you don't like work much, since you'd rather sit on a bridge and make insults than try and do anything productive.

The problem isn't the gear, it's the resources. Whether you delete it or not, that's several hours of game time that person now has nothing to show for because you think it's your right to kill indiscriminantly. By consistently killing PVE players and deleting their materials, you create an environment devoid of PVE players.

Guess what happens then? The game effectly becomes half of what it's designed to be since the Alchemists and Cooks are majorly going to be PVE focused, meaning not available because they quit due to your assholery; OR you have to be the PVE player yourself now, and become the target you obviously loathe.

If it's only an inconvenience for you, then obviously the PVE players need to whine more, since your choices aren't changed with the current model.

SO, in that light, I think anyone who kills more than 15 people in a tribe zone should be banned from all towns in that tribal state. Call it Nave's Most Wanted, or Most Wanted of X Tribe. 5 kills near any one town and you're locked out of there until you can make amends by rep in other towns in that area, or are adequately lynched by bounty to remove the MC.

That way murderhobo bandits like yourself have to actually play the game and move around or risk getting killed on site at every town in a tribal area, with a permanent red state hanging over your head. Additionally, there should be guards at tribal state borders, so that if you're one such murderhobo you get to avoid that whole state until you've been bountied equal to the deaths you've caused.

 

[Gladiator]

The only way to make permadeath in videogames fun is by having no skill system. The only games that succeded with this kind of design are survival games like Rust and Dayz, because the only real thing you actually lose is your gear.
Now, if it took a few hours instead of a few weeks to completely, and i do mean completely max your account, with full passive regeneration, full taming, full crafting skills, absolutely everything to 100% max, then perma-death here might stand a chance, for a limited number of people though....
You'd have to simplify the game to the point of no recognition, and people would quit , game would die... I dont know why im writing this im aware that the guy is simply delusional im just bored

 

[Tashka]

By consistently killing PVE players and deleting their materials, you create an environment devoid of PVE players.

There are no PvE players. If you want to be a PvE player, there are other games for that. The game shouldn't be changed to accomodate people who can't read a description on steam page.

Why are we still having these conversations?

 

[Hodo]

Troll thread is troll thread. If not troll, nothing in this game is murder. You temporarily lose all your HP and then have it back moments later. Death is not really a thing.

Your character doesnt get deleted when you die in game? You mean its just me?