Combat performance feedback, from the observer's perspective.

[Holypimp]

Hello SV and MO community!!

Here is some criticism from a video I was watching on youtube yesterday.

Please look at 19:18 in this video, and I ask you all, is this the combat you want for MO2? When someone is clearly blocking an attack, and he gets hit from thrice the range of his opponent's weapon, and for full damage, even though he was blocking. This is MO1 combat all over again, clunky, unresponsive, laggy, bad combat mechanics.

If SV wants to release a good game that will lure and keep subscibers in, combat needs to be more fluid than that. I will also post this in the forums, as I want MO2 to succeed, and I don't want to relaunch the one world server vs regional servers debate, but we are already starting to see how a one world server will never work in a competitive hardcore pvp sandbox mmo.

Keep up the good work SV!!

 

[Teknique]

Hello SV and MO community!!

Here is some criticism from a video I was watching on youtube yesterday.

Please look at 19:18 in this video, and I ask you all, is this the combat you want for MO2? When someone is clearly blocking an attack, and he gets hit from thrice the range of his opponent's weapon, and for full damage, even though he was blocking. This is MO1 combat all over again, clunky, unresponsive, laggy, bad combat mechanics.

If SV wants to release a good game that will lure and keep subscibers in, combat needs to be more fluid than that. I will also post this in the forums, as I want MO2 to succeed, and I don't want to relaunch the one world server vs regional servers debate, but we are already starting to see how a one world server will never work in a competitive hardcore pvp sandbox mmo.

Keep up the good work SV!!

That desync has nothing to do with ping. It has to do with client registering a hit faster than the server updating positions. Only way to fix it that I could see would be to start completely over with a different network solution which for obvious reasons isn’t feasible

 

[Eldrath]

Desync is not nice, but he was blocking the wrong way ... that is why he received full damage.

I´ve had similar desync happening to me in chiv or mount and blade bannerlord ... so yeah I think there is a lot of nitpicking going on. When I look at my fights, when I watch other people fight from on top of the tents in Fab most hits connect properly. It´s maybe 1 in 10 that does not. Again seen that shit in many MP games. How far do you feel that number has to go down that it is okay for an MMO?

Oh and don´t start with the ping shit again. It happens for me when I´m fighting Tyguy and we are both well below 50 ping.

 

[Holypimp]

Desync is not nice, but he was blocking the wrong way ... that is why he received full damage.

So he would have needed to block on the left for the parry to occur if i'm not mistaken?

How far do you feel that number has to go down that it is okay for an MMO?

In my opinion, in a full loot hardcore pvp MMORPG like MO2, where players will find every nook, every cranny, every fault in the sever's code or client's code to get that tiny edge to dominate others, I feel it is simply unacceptable for such desync to happen.

I know it's not a very good comparison, but let's take for example Planetside 2, a MMOFPS that often has 100 players fighting another 100 players, infantry, ground vehicles, air vehicles, fucking battlecruisers, lag free, desync free, every shot that lands properly is a shot that the server will register. Maybe there's desync, maybe there's latency, but the fact that it is almost imperceptible makes for a fun experience. My normie friends love playing a good planetside session.

BUT

In a game where one single mistake sets you back many hours behind in gear/skills, dying to lag or desync can make even the most patient person lose his mind. So at least if combat could be as synchronized as possible, without being perfect, it would make SOME people give MO2 a shot, and not just for 1 week of playtime.

SV has one shot left at this, if they fail again, it's most probably bye bye for any hope of having a thriving community inside the game.

 

[Eldrath]

So he would have needed to block on the left for the parry to occur if i'm not mistaken?



In my opinion, in a full loot hardcore pvp MMORPG like MO2, where players will find every nook, every cranny, every fault in the sever's code or client's code to get that tiny edge to dominate others, I feel it is simply unacceptable for such desync to happen.

I know it's not a very good comparison, but let's take for example Planetside 2, a MMOFPS that often has 100 players fighting another 100 players, infantry, ground vehicles, air vehicles, fucking battlecruisers, lag free, desync free, every shot that lands properly is a shot that the server will register. Maybe there's desync, maybe there's latency, but the fact that it is almost imperceptible makes for a fun experience. My normie friends love playing a good planetside session.

BUT

In a game where one single mistake sets you back many hours behind in gear/skills, dying to lag or desync can make even the most patient person lose his mind. So at least if combat could be as synchronized as possible, without being perfect, it would make SOME people give MO2 a shot, and not just for 1 week of playtime.

SV has one shot left at this, if they fail again, it's most probably bye bye for any hope of having a thriving community inside the game.

Correct, but yes it looked quiet far away - between 1 and 2 meters. I mean perspective in FPG can be weird too, sometimes the mesh looks further away than it actually is. What helps is watching other players duel, that will give you a good indication how distance works.

I agree and that is why they are working on it. I mean their livelyhood depends on it, we just move on and play something else. And it´s not one of those issues that they are stubborn or blind about, they want the best combat experience you can have in a single server MMO.

Planetside 2 was super laggy and desynced at times. I actually quit because of that.

 

[barcode]

melee is a completely different beast than hitscan or even projectile based combat. due to ping time, the positions of two moving characters will always be different on either of the characters screens as well as what the server sees. on your client, you always see the 'ghost' of where the other characters have been (or some prediction version of where your client thinks they're going to be). as a result, ty guy was able to hit the 'ghost' of leorias on his screen, whereas leorias saw the 'ghost' of ty guy being too far away to realistically do so.

this is the normal consequence of the reality of ping times, its simply not possible for everyone to have a 0 ping. for most fps games that use guns or other projectile weapons, you can often still be hit right after you run behind a protective structure for the same ping time reasons. Its a compounded issue for melee since the limited range of the swing means the hit calculations cant be done on the server or (again due to ping) many of your attacks that 'hit' on your client will miss from the server's perspective.

all things considered i think sv's done an admirable job to get melee to where it is but clearly there is room for improvement. personally i'd like to see the swing release delay folded into the weapon charge time so releases can be instant. also some way to remove ping advantage (up to a point) to normalize reaction time for weapon charges would be appreciated as well.

-barcode

 

[WesleySnipes]

Desync, getting hit from x meters away with weapons you shouldn't be getting by, getting your blocks swung through will tank the game if not addressed. No one is going to tolerate this shit.

In that video he was getting hit from a significant distance away, and it seems more prevalent when back paddling from an attack. People who say he was blocking the wrong way are missing the point. He should've never been getting hit from that far out. What's worse is I think these guys are on the same continent. If it's this bad between two people in the same region, how bad do you think it will be when you're from NA?

 

[ElPerro]

Desync, getting hit from x meters away with weapons you shouldn't be getting by, getting your blocks swung through will tank the game if not addressed. No one is going to tolerate this shit.

In that video he was getting hit from a significant distance away, and it seems more prevalent when back paddling from an attack. People who say he was blocking the wrong way are missing the point. He should've never been getting hit from that far out. What's worse is I think these guys are on the same continent. If it's this bad between two people in the same region, how bad do you think it will be when you're from NA?

They cant fix it in a single server game. Sadly the game is gonna get raped by reviews from salty NA kids getting hit from miles away, we will be back to MO1 numbers in no time. But at least the first few months should be fun

 

[MolagAmur]

And for some reason Henrik refuses an NA server...

Sadly the game is gonna get raped by reviews from salty NA kids getting hit from miles away, we will be back to MO1 numbers in no time.

Rightfully so. Majority of the people downloading MO2 will be NA.

 

[WesleySnipes]

They cant fix it in a single server game. Sadly the game is gonna get raped by reviews from salty NA kids getting hit from miles away, we will be back to MO1 numbers in no time. But at least the first few months should be fun

It's like watching a slow motion car wreck where no one is wearing seat belts.

 

[WesleySnipes]

And for some reason Henrik refuses an NA server...


Rightfully so. Majority of the people downloading MO2 will be NA.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” MO2 is just a prettier version of MO1 with all the inherited flaws of the previous game. Kinda heart breaking because I want MO2 to do well and encourage other developers to experiment more, but mo2 might just become an example of what NOT to do.

 

[Teknique]

Desync, getting hit from x meters away with weapons you shouldn't be getting by, getting your blocks swung through will tank the game if not addressed. No one is going to tolerate this shit.

In that video he was getting hit from a significant distance away, and it seems more prevalent when back paddling from an attack. People who say he was blocking the wrong way are missing the point. He should've never been getting hit from that far out. What's worse is I think these guys are on the same continent. If it's this bad between two people in the same region, how bad do you think it will be when you're from NA?

They can always play Zerg Oasis.

 

[Eldrath]

Well, I made a short video in slow motion to show the desync.

I believe Pat is from the US, I´m in sweden. My internet sorta sucks. Not all fights are like this, sometimes it does not happen at all in a duel.

 

[barcode]

hate to break it to ya, but theres no getting around this without *requiring* an extremely low ping to the server. Any ping times will increase that distance you can seemingly get hit from, and backpedelling is probably the worst case scenario for it (technically just running in a straight line). you might think only the eu guys get this advantage but it runs both ways just due to the nature of your ping times. reverse the sutation where tyguy is backpedelling and it would look like he was being hit from too far away as well.

unless you're going to *require* everyone to have an extremely low ping time, this issue is going to exist. can this be improved? maybe thru prediction but prediction also has its downsides. regional servers may help some in that the average ping times to your region's server will be lower and that will reduce the gap vs the common opponent but anyone with a little poorer ping will still have this issue

this is not an issue that is solved thru moving the server, its the result of packets taking time to get to the server and back. the higher the total ping between you, the greater the gap that will be possible

-barcode

 

[WesleySnipes]

this is not an issue that is solved thru moving the server, its the result of packets taking time to get to the server and back. the higher the total ping between you, the greater the gap that will be possible

Wouldn't moving the server also shorten the RTT, since the packet(s) will have less nodes to travel through? It's kind of a two generals problem.

The problem isn't only the server location I'll admit that; the prediction system is faulty. The problem is if the core of your combat is rotten, where does that leave the game in it's entirety? You think people are willing to put up with shoddy combat and a terrible game play experience? If Last Oasis is any example, the answer is a hard no.

If anything, these videos prove that regional servers will at least help, not hurt. If not entirely separate region servers, than regional continents, but this needs to happen at the cusp of early access not 3 - 6 months afterwards.

 

[barcode]

ok so consider this

its 100ms to send packets to the server, and 100ms to the other guy, just for round numbers

if you start moving, the other guy cant possibly know you've started moving until 200ms have passed

if the other guy doesnt move until he sees you move, he wont start moving on your screen until 400ms have passed

he has been standing still on your screen for that time, now you hit him
200ms later he sees he got hit, but at that time he have been moving for 400ms away from the spot you hit him at


it doesnt matter how you split up the ping times, could be 0 and 200 or 40 and 160, its the same result

-barcode

 

[ElPerro]

ok so consider this

its 100ms to send packets to the server, and 100ms to the other guy, just for round numbers

if you start moving, the other guy cant possibly know you've started moving until 200ms have passed

if the other guy doesnt move until he sees you move, he wont start moving on your screen until 400ms have passed

he has been standing still on your screen for that time, now you hit him
200ms later he sees he got hit, but at that time he have been moving for 400ms away from the spot you hit him at


it doesnt matter how you split up the ping times, could be 0 and 200 or 40 and 160, its the same result

-barcode

yeah but theres gonna be less players with those kind of ping differences if theres regional servers, thats the whole point.

Of course if some random australian dude hops on an NA server hes still gonna desync, nobody is denying that.

 

[Eldrath]

yeah but theres gonna be less players with those kind of ping differences if theres regional servers, thats the whole point.

Of course if some random australian dude hops on an NA server hes still gonna desync, nobody is denying that.

Or if the population on one server is too small people will jump servers anyway, negating the positiv effect.

Maybe a single NA server would be better, since it would make the whining stop. WOuldn´t solve anything, but I guess less emotional pain.

 

[Dracu]

Or if the population on one server is too small people will jump servers anyway, negating the positiv effect.

Maybe a single NA server would be better, since it would make the whining stop. WOuldn´t solve anything, but I guess less emotional pain.

It would stop the whining from us and start the whining from eu.
Cant we just put the server somewhere where no one benefits from it so we all get shit ping?^^

 

[Eldrath]

It would stop the whining from us and start the whining from eu.
Cant we just put the server somewhere where no one benefits from it so we all get shit ping?^^

I like that idea, but then people from the US would complain about those moving to antarctica to beat them in obscure niche MMORPG.