Turn Cap Yes or No?

[Sarevok]

Question. Read most of this thread but when talking about turn cap, does this turn cap kick in as you begin your swing or is it ever present? If the turn cap is ever present then I'd be incline to say remove it. Now enforcing a turn cap when initiating your swing makes sense and helps deal with ballerinas.

I took the two largest weapons(besides the spear) in Mordhau and snipped their stats for you. You may also review the website mordstats.com for more info. I only have 785 hours in Mordhau and should not be considered a pro but I do find the combat in Mordhau superior to Chivalry.



tldr: Apply turn cap when swinging in-game based on your weapon. No turn cap outside of swinging.

 

[barcode]

Currently there is a turn rate cap most just call it turn cap. You can turn any degree and run but sometimes there is a bug slowing your turn rate way more then intended.

If you flick your mouse so you would do a 360 it will do a 360 but it will take a little time. Before your character catch up with your mouse. This is caused by the turn rate cap as intended.

not sure this is the case.... if i turn quickly then i seem to hit little limits where i cant turn any further until the game updates and then i can turn more... or at least thats how it seemed to me. its still fairly quick so its not like you sit there waiting a long time to turn but it does prevent an instant 180, which is more my issue with it

-barcode

 

[Teknique]

not sure this is the case.... if i turn quickly then i seem to hit little limits where i cant turn any further until the game updates and then i can turn more... or at least thats how it seemed to me. its still fairly quick so its not like you sit there waiting a long time to turn but it does prevent an instant 180, which is more my issue with it

-barcode

The skill cap, which you may know as the turn cap, is quite clearly based off of mouse acceleration. The more of a whip you do the more it will slow down. The idea is laughable in a game like MO, but not nearly as laughable as the people who thought SV could actually code something like that and not have it be junk.

 

[Grisù]

Question. Read most of this thread but when talking about turn cap, does this turn cap kick in as you begin your swing or is it ever present? If the turn cap is ever present then I'd be incline to say remove it. Now enforcing a turn cap when initiating your swing makes sense and helps deal with ballerinas.

I took the two largest weapons(besides the spear) in Mordhau and snipped their stats for you. You may also review the website mordstats.com for more info. I only have 785 hours in Mordhau and should not be considered a pro but I do find the combat in Mordhau superior to Chivalry.

tldr: Apply turn cap when swinging in-game based on your weapon. No turn cap outside of swinging.

I'm not in alpha combat so do not trust what I'm going to write.

MO2 combat is different from Mordahu,
for what i could see from streaming in MO2 you can charge attacks while in Mordahu you can't (at least I never did, maybe i'm the biggest noob on the earth).

Basically Mordahu attacks has 1 straight animation for each attack, in that case you can apply turn cap at same moment as player left-click, and release it on attack animation ending.

For what a could understand in MO2 each attack has 3 main phases:
1st) move mouse and push down left mouse button: starts the charging/ready animation of the respective attack mouse direction.
2nd) keep left mouse button pressed: you got the ready to attack animation and can move the camera around to search your target.
3rd) release left mouse button: the attack starts and you have to follow your target with mouse to be sure of hit.

So i think alpha testers now and from next patch (maybe next monday?) have to experiment in which phases is better to apply turn cap and what would be the right amount of consistent speed reduction (consistent because had to be the same for each DPI and in game sensitivity setting).

Please excuse and correct me if i wrote something wrong.

 

[bbihah]

The issue is selectively citing realism to fit your agenda.

be careful of using the term high sensitivity and max sensitivity like you do a lot. FPS pros might think you’re just making stuff up if you do. It’s common knowledge amongst FPS players that sensitivity is one of those setting where there is no objective right answer. You can see Cs pros and they will all look fast af. Some are using 400 dpi, many people use 1800 dpi like myself, true high sensitivity would be in the 3-6k dpi range.

If you’d like to record yourself using 6k dpi and showing us how you now spin and hit everything accurately simply because you have high sensitivity I would love to see that. Dw I’ll wait

Criticizing my post on words not even found in the post. Interesting discussion technique, doesn't this skirt on straight out derailing territory?
Heck you are attacking an argument that is not even there. Why are you debating yourself?

There is a reason why I think a straight cap might be the wrong way to go about it, especially now that we got to try it. Sure there needs to be some sort of sensitivity roof for sure. But it should be pretty high, in normal circumstances it is just a preference not because of an advantage.
If it its just to prevent people from spasming all over the place to hide their swing directions I think a sort of limit to how fast your character is observed to be looking around to make it just not viable to do anymore will be sufficient, if this takes more work than just making the turn cap thing work, I cant say.

BUT if this turncap is just the beginning of other changes to the feel of combat then i'll patiently wait to get a better look at the whole picture before I completely condemn it.

There are a lot of games that successfully pull off things like turn caps, Mount&Blade for one, but I honestly don't like how it sort of makes the game feel clunky. Its more of a being used to feeling more free and I'm sure it is just a thing that'll feel better with getting used to it and some more polish. But that's also why I'm a bit skeptical about it, SV isn't exactly known to go all the way with their systems, so would be nice if they did finish one, at least this time.

 

[Rolufe]

not sure this is the case.... if i turn quickly then i seem to hit little limits where i cant turn any further until the game updates and then i can turn more... or at least thats how it seemed to me. its still fairly quick so its not like you sit there waiting a long time to turn but it does prevent an instant 180, which is more my issue with it

-barcode

That is a bug the staggering image or what you wanna call it. SV knows about it already. You dont get that if you constantly move and turn.

 

[Rolufe]

Okay i tested a few more things today during the stream and found out more of how it is currently working. So to explain this so everyone got a one go to place for its current workings.

There is a Turn rate cap on constantly. Each attack direction setting have its own turn rate cap, that is a even lower turn rate. It works as intended in the drag click setting. Slowing down the turn rate during windup and swing/thrust. On click drag it dont work as intended and it seems to me to randomly apply the lower turn rate. Sometimes i feel like its applied after the swing finishes.

Seems the reason i havnt been to bothered by the turn rate as many others, seems to be as i have only been using the click drag. So I have only been noticing the "randomly" applied lower turn rate cap.

This hopefully clears things up a little.

I havnt tested the keyboard settings yet.

 

[Teknique]

Criticizing my post on words not even found in the post. Interesting discussion technique, doesn't this skirt on straight out derailing territory?
Heck you are attacking an argument that is not even there. Why are you debating yourself?

There is a reason why I think a straight cap might be the wrong way to go about it, especially now that we got to try it. Sure there needs to be some sort of sensitivity roof for sure. But it should be pretty high, in normal circumstances it is just a preference not because of an advantage.
If it its just to prevent people from spasming all over the place to hide their swing directions I think a sort of limit to how fast your character is observed to be looking around to make it just not viable to do anymore will be sufficient, if this takes more work than just making the turn cap thing work, I cant say.

BUT if this turncap is just the beginning of other changes to the feel of combat then i'll patiently wait to get a better look at the whole picture before I completely condemn it.

There are a lot of games that successfully pull off things like turn caps, Mount&Blade for one, but I honestly don't like how it sort of makes the game feel clunky. Its more of a being used to feeling more free and I'm sure it is just a thing that'll feel better with getting used to it and some more polish. But that's also why I'm a bit skeptical about it, SV isn't exactly known to go all the way with their systems, so would be nice if they did finish one, at least this time.

I've seen you use max sensitivity before, and if you're being truthful you'll admit to that. I only mention it so that your argument won't just be dismissed as someone who's making things up.

Honestly I agree with you it doesn't make sense to criticize something that is incomplete, IF this was a duel simulator. To mess with the freedom of camera however doesn't have any possible outcomes that are good. A turn cap will either be ineffective like now, harm lower sens players like now, harm combat movement as you can't even turn around (pray this never happens), force you to stand there and play ping online. I can't fathom any mechanic that they can add that will be agnostic to the ping difference unless they somehow mitigate it or add a stun (which would suck), which I doubt they will. And all of this is assuming SV was known for strong coding and balancing.

Also to people saying they can just remove any bad changes later. The only reason this turn cap is going to be fixed is because it hurts lower skilled players hard. Anything that benefits lower skilled player will have entire legions of forum defenders, see subsection mounted sledgehammers, pets, walls, and tc guards. You'd better be damned certain you want that mechanic in the game if you dare to try it out.

i'm not delusional actually, I know i'm pretty bad, I only play esports games for the most part so I know how weak of a player I am, the other players remind me of this frequently. I don't care about my personal performance in duels, and that's precisely why i'm disappointed in the alpha testers. I'm interested in making a good MMORPG. It really appears that is all that they care about nerfing something that did damage to their unstoppable parry wall that will almost never happen in the actual game, unacceptable. Mind you exaggerated spins are only viable against someone statuing you, likely a 10 ping player. Sure i've gotten pretty good at doing it on the move, but theres a reason no one will produce the video that i'm asking for showing it.

 

[bbihah]

It not so much as you making things up as much as you creating and attacking an argument that isn't there and isn't here.

If they are going to hold fast on the cap to turning itself, the very least they could do is make it so you can look around past the turn cap point, sort of how "freelook" works in games like arma. This will eliminate one of the issues I feel it creates and some others have mentioned. Your view sort of feels locked. The system is clearly there to prevent circumventing the entire blocking system with CLEVER USE OF GAME MECHANICS(TM) so the fact that it has a cost on situational awareness, especially for group fights can be remedied on its own if they are holding fast that this is the way they are going to have it.

 

[Teknique]

It not so much as you making things up as much as you creating and attacking an argument that isn't there and isn't here.

If they are going to hold fast on the cap to turning itself, the very least they could do is make it so you can look around past the turn cap point, sort of how "freelook" works in games like arma. This will eliminate one of the issues I feel it creates and some others have mentioned. Your view sort of feels locked. The system is clearly there to prevent circumventing the entire blocking system with CLEVER USE OF GAME MECHANICS(TM) so the fact that it has a cost on situational awareness, especially for group fights can be remedied on its own if they are holding fast that this is the way they are going to have it.

This is not Mordhau.
But the combat does look like Age of Chivalry.
People running around with max mouse sensitivity.

U rite.

circumventing the entire block system. I could show you a video of Draculina almost flawlessing the spinniest of flurries. Again all you have to do is walk away, nothing is forcing you to 10 ping statue a spin.

 

[Rolufe]

I've seen you use max sensitivity before, and if you're being truthful you'll admit to that. I only mention it so that your argument won't just be dismissed as someone who's making things up.

Honestly I agree with you it doesn't make sense to criticize something that is incomplete, IF this was a duel simulator. To mess with the freedom of camera however doesn't have any possible outcomes that are good. A turn cap will either be ineffective like now, harm lower sens players like now, harm combat movement as you can't even turn around (pray this never happens), force you to stand there and play ping online. I can't fathom any mechanic that they can add that will be agnostic to the ping difference unless they somehow mitigate it or add a stun (which would suck), which I doubt they will. And all of this is assuming SV was known for strong coding and balancing.

Also to people saying they can just remove any bad changes later. The only reason this turn cap is going to be fixed is because it hurts lower skilled players hard. Anything that benefits lower skilled player will have entire legions of forum defenders, see subsection mounted sledgehammers, pets, walls, and tc guards. You'd better be damned certain you want that mechanic in the game if you dare to try it out.

i'm not delusional actually, I know i'm pretty bad, I only play esports games for the most part so I know how weak of a player I am, the other players remind me of this frequently. I don't care about my personal performance in duels, and that's precisely why i'm disappointed in the alpha testers. I'm interested in making a good MMORPG. It really appears that is all that they care about nerfing something that did damage to their unstoppable parry wall that will almost never happen in the actual game, unacceptable. Mind you exaggerated spins are only viable against someone statuing you, likely a 10 ping player. Sure i've gotten pretty good at doing it on the move, but theres a reason no one will produce the video that i'm asking for showing it.

I know Draculina did a video showing this quite perfectly how it skips animations.

 

[Rolufe]

Question. Read most of this thread but when talking about turn cap, does this turn cap kick in as you begin your swing or is it ever present? If the turn cap is ever present then I'd be incline to say remove it. Now enforcing a turn cap when initiating your swing makes sense and helps deal with ballerinas.

I took the two largest weapons(besides the spear) in Mordhau and snipped their stats for you. You may also review the website mordstats.com for more info. I only have 785 hours in Mordhau and should not be considered a pro but I do find the combat in Mordhau superior to Chivalry.

View attachment 300

tldr: Apply turn cap when swinging in-game based on your weapon. No turn cap outside of swinging.

Okay i tested a few more things today during the stream and found out more of how it is currently working. So to explain this so everyone got a one go to place for its current workings.

There is a Turn rate cap on constantly. Each attack direction setting have its own turn rate cap, that is a even lower turn rate. It works as intended in the drag click setting. Slowing down the turn rate during windup and swing/thrust. On click drag it dont work as intended and it seems to me to randomly apply the lower turn rate. Sometimes i feel like its applied after the swing finishes.

Seems the reason i havnt been to bothered by the turn rate as many others, seems to be as i have only been using the click drag. So I have only been noticing the "randomly" applied lower turn rate cap.

This hopefully clears things up a little.

I havnt tested the keyboard settings yet.

 

[bbihah]

The main good part about making combat more "restricted" in how you can turn and move means its easier for the prediction system to be able to keep up and give you a decent picture that corresponds to what is actually happening.

Back in MO1 days I always wanted them to give momentum a try to balance out heavier armor and make movement less gamey when it comes to ping.
Meaning when you sprint it takes time to get to maximum speed and it also takes time to slow back down again. With there obviously being certain points in the spectrum where movement feels smooth and almost completely un-impacted by this (walking as well as briefly at the beginning of sprints), this compared to how they did end up balancing heavier armor vs lighter armor I think it would have in the very least been interesting to try.

Turn caps + momentum and the heavier armor you wear the more negative impact it has on these mechanics would be cool to see how that would play out. But then again, I can only imagine that for people who have played mo1 and mo2 and how it works it would feel extremely sluggish and weird. But i've played games where the movement have been extremely restricted in these very things(and together) and just after a short while of playing you start learn how to move smoother within the system. And if it has a positive impact on peer to peer interpretation of events(Prediction system) then it would definitely be something worth a quick test.

But now im just rambling on, I'm still to really decide if I like the turn cap we do have or not but im leaning towards its actually pretty ok and with some polish and adjustments and maybe the ability to look past the turn rate(sort of free look around) could probably do the system some good.

 

[Turbizzler]

Yes many ancient manuscrips speak of whirling around like a fairy as an effective fighting method. Indeed every fighting style today relies heavily on turning your back towards your enemy. Who hasn´t seen the mighty Tyson do a 720° degree turn before landing a perfect hit and doing that to a dozen opponents at the same time.

There are some some historical manuscripts that mention spinning, but for all the wrong reasons.
- It throws off your balance.
- In armor it increases fatigue
- You turn your back to the enemy
- It's countered by a single thrust, kick, push etc Basically anything that involves a trust. Spinning man can't riposte, if his back is facing the enemy and his arms are swinging around like noodles.

Plus, you don't exactly want to slash against plate or mail armor with a bladed weapon, you want to direct your point into a gap. I believe Skallagrim on youtube covered this topic, he references some ancient and medieval writings over it. Does a little demonstration too. Think he even commented on the Witchers fighting style in a video too. But too lazy to find them, dude has like a million videos.

 

[Eldrath]

The main good part about making combat more "restricted" in how you can turn and move means its easier for the prediction system to be able to keep up and give you a decent picture that corresponds to what is actually happening.

Back in MO1 days I always wanted them to give momentum a try to balance out heavier armor and make movement less gamey when it comes to ping.
Meaning when you sprint it takes time to get to maximum speed and it also takes time to slow back down again. With there obviously being certain points in the spectrum where movement feels smooth and almost completely un-impacted by this (walking as well as briefly at the beginning of sprints), this compared to how they did end up balancing heavier armor vs lighter armor I think it would have in the very least been interesting to try.

Turn caps + momentum and the heavier armor you wear the more negative impact it has on these mechanics would be cool to see how that would play out. But then again, I can only imagine that for people who have played mo1 and mo2 and how it works it would feel extremely sluggish and weird. But i've played games where the movement have been extremely restricted in these very things(and together) and just after a short while of playing you start learn how to move smoother within the system. And if it has a positive impact on peer to peer interpretation of events(Prediction system) then it would definitely be something worth a quick test.

But now im just rambling on, I'm still to really decide if I like the turn cap we do have or not but im leaning towards its actually pretty ok and with some polish and adjustments and maybe the ability to look past the turn rate(sort of free look around) could probably do the system some good.

Yes, I remember you putting forward that suggestion. I´d be fine with testing that. They would need to add other ways to overcome defensive play though. And probably do something about latency, cause they slower everything is the less high ping players can abuse prediction. Putting them in an even worse situation.

 

[Rolufe]

The main good part about making combat more "restricted" in how you can turn and move means its easier for the prediction system to be able to keep up and give you a decent picture that corresponds to what is actually happening.

Back in MO1 days I always wanted them to give momentum a try to balance out heavier armor and make movement less gamey when it comes to ping.
Meaning when you sprint it takes time to get to maximum speed and it also takes time to slow back down again. With there obviously being certain points in the spectrum where movement feels smooth and almost completely un-impacted by this (walking as well as briefly at the beginning of sprints), this compared to how they did end up balancing heavier armor vs lighter armor I think it would have in the very least been interesting to try.

Turn caps + momentum and the heavier armor you wear the more negative impact it has on these mechanics would be cool to see how that would play out. But then again, I can only imagine that for people who have played mo1 and mo2 and how it works it would feel extremely sluggish and weird. But i've played games where the movement have been extremely restricted in these very things(and together) and just after a short while of playing you start learn how to move smoother within the system. And if it has a positive impact on peer to peer interpretation of events(Prediction system) then it would definitely be something worth a quick test.

But now im just rambling on, I'm still to really decide if I like the turn cap we do have or not but im leaning towards its actually pretty ok and with some polish and adjustments and maybe the ability to look past the turn rate(sort of free look around) could probably do the system some good.

I like this idea but as always the more negative effects they put on heavy armor, the better they need to make its defense. So that its worth using. It also costs about 10x more, at least in MO1 compared to lighter armor types and mats. But i agree that they could put in increased sprint stam drain + fighting stam drain as well as a acceleration face at the start of movement and it being a tiny bit slower for heavier armor and similar thing for deceleration .

 

[bbihah]

Yes, I remember you putting forward that suggestion. I´d be fine with testing that. They would need to add other ways to overcome defensive play though. And probably do something about latency, cause they slower everything is the less high ping players can abuse prediction. Putting them in an even worse situation.

Well they need to at least have a plan for the expansion of the game play loop of combat. Charge swing>Parry>Counter is the entirety of the combat loop right now. If you put two fighters against each other, both low ping players. The only reason they'd be moving around at all would be to make the other party whiff the occasional swing, drain both parties stam faster and prevent the other party from getting the full DPS/M potential of his weapon. So if you exclude moving, have them just stand at perfect distance toward each other. What do you get?
A block fest, the block arcs they readded ala version ?9? 10? from mo1 does not really accomplish anything in that field.

I've always advocated for it and never will stop advocating for it until we see it, mortal online 2 combat need MORE DEPTH. The people that thought [Parry Town TM] would end with the addition of block arc were delusional and it frankly was just a waste of time, just like it was the multiple times they added, removed, re-added and tweaked them in mortal online 1.
People for some reason took me not wanting them to waste time on something they've done before that didn't make a lick of a difference and rather put time into actually coming up with more combat mechanics as me wanting blocking to be easy or even easier than it always has been. The only thing that tells is how little of a understanding people have of game play that we've had, have and could have.

If anything the way I want it, blocking would probably be easy, but so would be countering it. Do you see people complaining about blocking in Mordhau? Not really. Since there are mechanics to get around the blocks. Kicks(for shields), feints, drags, accels, morphs and then the fact that blocking drains stam like no tomorrow while costing the attacker nothing. What is the penalty for blocking in mordhau? Its finite, you literally cant block forever even if you wanted to. You need to atleast play a little bit on the offensive or you will die. In mortal? There is no flow.


What I am praying in my heart of hearts for right now is that this turn cap is just 1 addition of many to come towards making mortal combat(hah) less of a snooze fest and something that takes more than 5 minutes and a cup of coffee to get good at. Just look at other combat games like Mordhau, Bannerlord and Kingdom come deliverance (bad comparison for sure, since its not a multiplayer game. But the mechanic concepts are still very doable or can be used for inspiration). A lot of the game mechanics in those games take hours to get a good grip on. in mortal online, you take someone who played mordhau for maybe 200-300 hours played and tell them to get good at mortal and after literally 5 minutes they'll be asking themselves, Is this it?

 

[Pierre]

I missed the poll but I still want to deposit my two cents. First, turn caps are a necessity and should be a bit more stricter to prevent these ridiculous spins. European players are disadvantaged when fighting higher ping players as they can do those spins while hitting meters away, making it very difficult to block.

Second, I do not care so much for realism, though I understand the concerns of those who do, but balance should be the foremost issue to be addressed, and the game is not balanced without these turn caps.

 

[bbihah]

I missed the poll but I still want to deposit my two cents. First, turn caps are a necessity and should be a bit more stricter to prevent these ridiculous spins. European players are disadvantaged when fighting higher ping players as they can do those spins while hitting meters away, making it very difficult to block.

Second, I do not care so much for realism, though I understand the concerns of those who do, but balance should be the foremost issue to be addressed, and the game is not balanced without these turn caps.

There can always be a middle ground. The only limiting factor is the devs.

Also as mentioned earlier in the thread, there does seem to be more stuff coming and no matter what it is. No matter if it is hated by the veterans of Mo1, it'll be a breath of fresh air and anything to make the combat more than it is and always has been is progress. You can't make the combat better without testing more things in it, it is severely held down by how limited it is.


Anyone still got that Henrik obama propaganda poster? HOPE