The Game isn't Ready [Poll]

Should they delay persistence (Full release)?


  • Total voters
    153

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,161
916
113
34
Norway
I honestly don't think we should be catering to people that don't understand that Early Access is exactly that, Early Access.

I believe that EA will be a critical time for the games development. SV needs people playing the game so that the devs can collect data and receive feedback from the playerbase. Adding persistence will considerably increase the the player base and allow the devs to acquire data on a broader scale from various in game systems. Allowing them to better create, tweak, and polish game systems and features. People need to realize that in EA you are playing more for the future of the game than you are for your own enjoyment in the moment.

When it comes to bringing new people to the game, most people looking for a game like this just want to see the possibility of a fully fleshed out world with loads of choices, consequences, and freedom. People with interest in a game like Mo2 just need to be exposed to the idea of it, and when they see that idea actually being made, im sure they would be paitent and understanding enough to realize that the game is only just entering EA. Remember people, Tindrem wasn't built in a day.

We all also need to realize that this game is not directly competing with games like WoW and BDO, You most likely wont attract people who play MMO's like that, since they dont like the idea of a hardcore mmo in the firstplace. So trying to cater to a audience like that will only take away from the game, and imo the devs and the playerbase shouldn't even waste their time thinking about how they could lure those players to mo2. SV should just be focused on making mo2 the best game they can possibly make, while remaining loyal to the foundational idea of what mortal should be, and the playerbase should look to assist with feedback and criticism when necessary. I'm very optimistic that the finished product will speak for itself when they finally do release it out of EA, and even then mo2 will remain a evolving game, with new content constantly being developed. Trust in the process people.
I dont think people understand that your not supposed to pay for EA games. EA is a reward for pre ordering a game.

SV want full price monthly subscription for something we should have for free until the real release. Thats the issue.
We will be wasting our 1 month free time long before the game releases.

So say EA lasts 1 year, thats a year we should get for free and then once real release arrives we should get 1 month free and then subs kick in. We are most probably looking at atleast 2 years EA considering the little process they made during this soon year of Alpha.
Combat is still as far from finished as back in February, we still lack most basic mechanics and most are not working as intended yet.

Pretty much 98% of the game is copy/pasted from MO or store bought.
 

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,018
531
113
44
Kansas
yet ,you gonna be charged full sub for a game in developpement still lacking core features when you start playing. and probably for a good while...
I dont think people understand that your not supposed to pay for EA games. EA is a reward for pre ordering a game.

SV want full price monthly subscription for something we should have for free until the real release. Thats the issue.

Plenty of people will pay for the head start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zbuciorn

Svaar

Active member
Nov 4, 2020
187
131
43
44
Russia/Moscow
they said mounts would be added once they polished enought so it isnt a mess. You literally have no clue about it being a month, or 6months. And when they add it, it might also need a whole test and bugfixes...
if they are also polished like an Springboks with their "artificial intelligence" then it is better not to introduce them (mounts) into the game at all =)
 
Last edited:

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,161
916
113
34
Norway
if they are also polished like an Springboks with their "artificial intelligence" then it is better not to introduce them into the game at all =)
Mounts? Boks?
Nah man wait for bears, DKs and Kurnas. The polish and their smart AIs will revolutionize the entire gaming industry.

Soon enough all games will take such a superiour AI and all games will become Pokemon!
 

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,161
916
113
34
Norway
Plenty of people will pay for the head start.
Ofc but plenty more will never buy it because of it, they claim they learned from MO, but why are all the same mistakes happening again ?

This is ping issues and speeding down all over again. Why appease a small percentage when you ruin something for the vast majority ?
It ended badly for MO, do they really believe the same formula for MO2 will go any different ?

The stress test over the weekend told us alot of what we can expect from MO2 once its persistent.
There was faaaar less players testing than we expected or even hoped for. The server handled it poorly from what we expected or even hoped for.
Players attitude towards MO2 was opposite of what we expected or even hoped for.
The general complaints during this weekend was along what I knew and expected but would never hope for.

Hopefully things will change for the better but based on 11 years of experience I dont have any fate things will.
 

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,161
916
113
34
Norway
Found a new video of MO2s AI in action, this time not a bok but a weasel.
Enjoy!

PS. Wanted to find one of Springboks but its just so long I force myself looking for old MO footage.
 

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,018
531
113
44
Kansas
Actually, this kind of reasoning is why we have slow combat. Appeasing the masses. The masses can play wow, rather than make mortal into wow. I want SV to focus on hard core, full loot, skill based combat and deep crafting systems. People chased away by a less than perfect early access game won't be able to hack that game anyway.
I vote for no more carebear, hand holding SV!
 

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,161
916
113
34
Norway
Actually, this kind of reasoning is why we have slow combat. Appeasing the masses. The masses can play wow, rather than make mortal into wow. I want SV to focus on hard core, full loot, skill based combat and deep crafting systems. People chased away by a less than perfect early access game won't be able to hack that game anyway.
I vote for no more carebear, hand holding SV!
Actually no. The masses is not Aussie ping, the masses is not granpa reaction times.

Mortal from 2009 to 2020 became more and more like WoW rather than its vision.
Dumbing down to make it easier, making gear matter more and more. Making magic better and better.
In the beginning you could roam with a full team of fighters, late MO you needed this or that many mages, in 2011 everything revolved around hybrids.
Magic is MOs WoW section of skilless auto aim heatseeking themepark attacks.

I dont like it, I try to fight it as much as I can, but SV listens to players wanting a real time combat WoW instead of the hardcore game MO was meant to be.
If skill matters MO would be the furthest it can from WoW, the less skill matters the more like WoW it becomes.

SV cant manage to make the game good for our niche, so it takes what it can from themeparks to try to gain casuals so they dont have to make a good game.
What they dont understand is that while doing so they chase away the games niche while getting nothing in return because it wont drop the last few hardcore elements they have in order to keep calling it a hardcore sandbox game.

I want the same as you for sure, but a few bad eggs posing as fans of this niche genre is able to completely ruin what MO and now MO2 could become.
 

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,018
531
113
44
Kansas
Actually no. The masses is not Aussie ping, the masses is not granpa reaction times.

Mortal from 2009 to 2020 became more and more like WoW rather than its vision.
Dumbing down to make it easier, making gear matter more and more. Making magic better and better.
In the beginning you could roam with a full team of fighters, late MO you needed this or that many mages, in 2011 everything revolved around hybrids.
Magic is MOs WoW section of skilless auto aim heatseeking themepark attacks.

I dont like it, I try to fight it as much as I can, but SV listens to players wanting a real time combat WoW instead of the hardcore game MO was meant to be.
If skill matters MO would be the furthest it can from WoW, the less skill matters the more like WoW it becomes.

SV cant manage to make the game good for our niche, so it takes what it can from themeparks to try to gain casuals so they dont have to make a good game.
What they dont understand is that while doing so they chase away the games niche while getting nothing in return because it wont drop the last few hardcore elements they have in order to keep calling it a hardcore sandbox game.

I want the same as you for sure, but a few bad eggs posing as fans of this niche genre is able to completely ruin what MO and now MO2 could become.
I agree. What I mean is that the majority want the easy mode combat, and that SV need to design it to where skill matters most instead of what the majority want.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ThaBadMan

Eldrath

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2020
1,047
991
113
the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
It is too early to make any kind of call on this.

There are still a bunch of system left to implemented that will inform us of the direction SV wants to take.

Personally I want them to continue to chase the original vision and I think there is enough money to pay them in that approach. I don´t think a hybrid between that game and whatever the MortalCarebear association wants will sell in the long run.
 

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,161
916
113
34
Norway
I agree. What I mean is that the majority want the easy mode combat, and that SV need to design it to where skill matters most instead of what the majority want.
It is too early to make any kind of call on this.

There are still a bunch of system left to implemented that will inform us of the direction SV wants to take.

Personally I want them to continue to chase the original vision and I think there is enough money to pay them in that approach. I don´t think a hybrid between that game and whatever the MortalCarebear association wants will sell in the long run.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
 

Darthus

Well-known member
Dec 1, 2020
280
293
63
Reading through a lot of the discussions here, it does seem like the idea of moving into EA is something that's concerning if the game is "not ready", but that the expectations of it being an amazing full featured MMO is something that can be managed.

The main concern seems to be that they would be charging a sub in EA when it's also not feature complete.

Here's what I've heard from Henrik over a variety of videos:
  1. He plans to charge full price ($39) and begin charging the monthly sub ($14.25) when the game goes into "Persistence".
  2. He considers the flow of phases to be Alpha -> Beta -> Persistence. He hasn't been super clear about how he defines these, but he does say it's not he usual Alpha is not feature complete, Beta is feature complete but needs polishing and persistence is done. What I've gathered is that Alpha is building core systems, Beta is there's a game there but core features aren't included and persistence is the core initial featureset is present and somewhat set and there are no plans for consistent character wipes.
  3. He has said that he plans for Persistence to coincide with Early Access launch on Steam. The FAQ states he aims for Persistence to occur by the end of 2020 (which was written 1 year ago). However, it does note that it will not go to Early Access until it's ready.
Putting all this together, it's obvious to see why people are concluding that by Jan 1st, it's launching on Early Access and we and others will be paying a sub and that we all can't see how in less than 1 month we'll be at a place where that makes sense (as right now the game is basically just invididual/group combat in a relatively empty world with no goals or purpose).

I'm breaking it down this way because I think, at least for me, if they're not charging a sub, I don't care too much when they go into EA, especially if they frame it as a beginning. But the Persistence=EA=Sub equivalency is an issue.

Has anyone heard a recent re-statement from Henrik/SV that they plan to go to EA by the end of 2020 firmly? When he brings up the current timeline in streams, it's mostly just to highlight what they're working on, and I think he's hinted that if they get everything done that's in December, he'll consider it eligible for Persistence: https://www.mortalonline2.com/alpha/#roadmap.

Looking at that, if everything on the roadmap was great (including "Polish") through December, I can see how the later dev stuff could go in later (mounts, thievery etc). For me the two biggest ones that need to go in are PvE AI and Haven, and those need to be really well polished. Unless they've been holding those back and not showing them, I think they'll be hard pressed to get those "done" in the next month.

If I wanted to be generous, I'd say maybe they could patch them in in in some form in the next month, but they will require polish and iteration prior to being ready for Early Access and if they really buckle down, maybe Q1 2021?
 

Rankor

Active member
May 28, 2020
104
98
43
Texas
www.youtube.com
My 2 cents:

Lotta valid points here......but also a lot of salt. Gaming has changed since MO appeared on the scene. There are a LOT of options for online play these days which means competing for every dollar. How do you succeed in a sea of so many games? Make yourself standout.

MO2 needs to be what MO1 was meant to be. You can't be everything to everyone.....MO1 proved that. But you have to have enough of a variety of gameplay to draw a wide berth of players. Full-Loot pvp will only get you so far. There needs to be meaning behind it. We used to talk about risk vs reward a lot but never saw it implemented. That needs to happen.

Balance also needs to happen. Gear needs to be important but not at the cost of skill. Yet, skill alone should not allow a naked player with a sword to kill another fully geared player.

Certain resources need to be finite and worth the effort.

Regarding EA and Sub Cost: As someone who's been a "Subscriber" in Star Citizen since its initial release and spent more money that I should have on virtual space ships, I have no issue what-so-ever with it. Companies need money to continue development and a sub is the easiest way to get it. Create something unique and people will pay. End of story. I think, however, SV should take a look at how Star Citizen works its Sub System with its perks and do something similar. For example, a EA sub perk might have a lottery chance of receiving a finely carved wooden staff that cannot be looted but can be freely given away, at which point it loses its everlasting ability and henceforth could then be stolen or destroyed. Its not game breaking but would add value to the object if kept, even into full release.

Anyway, those are my current thoughts....
 

Hooves

Member
Nov 30, 2020
76
80
18
Full-Loot pvp will only get you so far. There needs to be meaning behind it.
I totally agree. There needs to be polish behind it as well, and features that aren't tedious.

As someone who's been a "Subscriber" in Star Citizen since its initial release and spent more money that I should have on virtual space ships, I have no issue what-so-ever with it.
I'm not going to touch that statement. I wish you the best.
 

Handsome Young Man

Well-known member
Jun 13, 2020
656
490
93
The combat is going to scare away hardcore fans, and the lack of features, polish, and optimization will scare away casuals. Anyone who is saying this game is amazing and making 'strides' in progress in the right direction is drinking the whole pitcher of kool-aid.
 

Joshuil

New member
Oct 25, 2020
4
3
3
Lot of "veterans" being little drama queens in this thread. The way some of you talk, like the original poster, you sound like you hope it'll fail.

Seems to be a severe lack of understanding of what EA is, and why its needed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Armegeddon

Handsome Young Man

Well-known member
Jun 13, 2020
656
490
93
Lot of "veterans" being little drama queens in this thread. The way some of you talk, like the original poster, you sound like you hope it'll fail.

Seems to be a severe lack of understanding of what EA is, and why its needed.

Or just ignore the original point of the thread.

Imagine classifying legitimate criticism backed by a public poll by a majority (thus far) as being 'little drama queens'. If you don't have anything important, constructive, or relevant to the conversation. Go make another thread and guide your own ideas there.

But just for the sake of being fair, I'll explain it to you even though it's been made apparent numerous times.

EA will do more harm then good.

Why?

1.) In-order to play, you must purchase a copy of the game + sub. That's going to equal out to the equivalent of a triple A title + paying monthly for it.

2.) Star Vault has already said (and yet to clarify or inform us, the players) that on persistence (persistence being no more wipes + the game goes public on steam + sub) a lot of core features like mounts will not be in. The map is six times bigger. SIX TIMES BIGGER. Did you play the original MO1? MO1 was the maximum amount of distance players were willing to put up with. Even then, people still complained and for good reason. Does that mean the map needed to be smaller? No, there were skill restrictions that didn't allow players to have mounts worked into their build because MO1's tight skill system was terrible and restrictive. MO2? We need mounts to get around, to move materials, etc. Can you imagine buying a game, paying a sub, then finding out you need to foot transport materials moving at the speed of a snail or if you want to go to X location it'll take 2 hours by foot? Instant turn off for tons of casuals / new players. Could make more arguments but the game needs more features that are essential.

3.) Game is super unoptimized and there have yet been more options to be added to the graphics options for better control and FPS gain. We need a resolution quality, shadows disabled, and anti-aliasing disabled option. This will overall improve FPS in nearly all clients unless you're one of these guys running an RTX 3080 on a super CPU.

4.) People have been caught hacking, not saying it needs to not come out until -no one- can cheat. But the anti-cheat is going to need some work before it gets forwarded to the public otherwise the game will get riddled with them like the first one.. and with no wipes? Guess what? That's going to effect you, your friends, your guild, and everyone else. Positively or negatively. It's going to make things unfair and imbalanced.

5.) Still plenty wrong with the combat. It's not where it needs to be, magic isn't in yet, bow crafting isn't in yet, mounts and mounted play isn't it, a lot of which needs to be balanced and tested privately first before releasing it as a hot steaming pile of horse shit which will push players away cause they paid 60 USD for the experience.

6.) There could be way more optimization done server-side for networking.

7.) Crafting balances are needed.

8.) Clade gifts aren't finished.

9.) Stuck is super abusable.

I mean, I can go on dude. There's 9 reasons if it went EA on Steam that the only positive reviews are the people who play for 2 hours or the die hard 'Yes men' fans. Real people will notice the game was pushed super hard to release not being done only to shit all over it and never return. During the stress test, I had 35 FPS in Bakti. That's not playable, and people who are on 144hz monitors will rave in reviews how the game can't even hit a stable 60 cause of players around them en masse. |

I implore you to read, and stop skimming over what people say and rationalizing it as being petty and drama, we're all super disgruntled because we came from MO1 and want MO2 to fix what was wrong in MO1.
 

Handsome Young Man

Well-known member
Jun 13, 2020
656
490
93
Quoting myself...

"
As someone who is a long time fan and player of MO1 and now MO2, even with all my gripes, my criticisms come with the idea of making the game a competitive, skill-based, fun hardcore full loot MMORPG. There has been a lot of uncertainties with balance changes / ideas, bug, short spans of time; and we're now approaching persistence for the game in about a months time.

As a member of the MO community and I'm sure among others, I ask that you refrain from sending the game into persistence so early. I believe the initial impression players will get will be a bad one and you'll drive away potential new players with the shape it is more than likely going to be in-in a months time. I would rather the game come out with as many essential features possible with as little bug / problems / server issues and well-rounded balance out of the gate then rushing it and then just dealing with problems until another patch comes along.

It's a very unprofessional route to force players to put up with potentially dry / bad / bug ridden patches until the game is 'stable and balanced'.

Please withhold persistence until the game is more finished, thanks.

"

How was this being a little drama queen? Hahahahaha.
 

Joshuil

New member
Oct 25, 2020
4
3
3
Now youre leaving drama queen territory and becoming a little hysterical.......haha only joking around.

But i do hear you and yes ive read everything, i just dont agree with most of it.

I still believe that as long as its made clear to everyone its Early Access and not the full game then it can go ahead without many features like mounts, housing etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zbuciorn

Hooves

Member
Nov 30, 2020
76
80
18
I still believe that as long as its made clear to everyone its Early Access and not the full game then it can go ahead without many features like mounts, housing etc.
I agree with that to an extent. It may not need those specific features.

Housing is poorly designed in MO1, so I'd actually be more worried if they DID have a housing option that they rushed out for MO2. They can probably get away with not adding mounts too, especially if they limit the playable area (not even sure if that's on the table, though).

The big thing here is that it needs to be playable! The few features that are in the game need to work. The game needs to be reasonably optimized to the point where it can be enjoyable. There also needs to be a route for new players to get gear, learn the game, etc without hitting gamebreaking bugs or awful QoL hurdles. If not, they'll be looking at a high refund rate and they'll be sitting at the bottom of a review-hell pit that will take ages to climb out of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zbuciorn