Suggestion - Change blocking damage to stamina damage

[Valoran]

Like my previous thread regarding equipment hits, this one is also aimed towards making Mortal's combat more logical.

Currently if you hold a block for too long, and someone hits you, you will take a small amount of health damage (unless they have a maul).

The reality of mortals combat is everyone constantly resetting their blocks every 2 seconds in order to get parries (and to avoid the blocking damage).


I believe taking real damage from a blocked hit is highly illogical, and consequently quite counter-intuitive for new players.



As an extra, we are also facing the issue of some people attempting to time their hits in order to hit between parry refreshes.

Changing block damage to stamina damage instead of health damage, will lessen the penalty for not parrying instead of blocking, and in some situations may result in choosing to hold the block instead of resetting the parry right away, to avoid the above situation.



The exact stamina damage taken while blocking would need to be tested, but that's what we have the alpha for.


What are your thoughts?

 

[Eldrath]

I think it´s worthwhile to explore this. SV should put it in a patch and we test it a couple of weeks.

 

[Dracu]

Like my previous thread regarding equipment hits, this one is also aimed towards making Mortal's combat more logical.

Currently if you hold a block for too long, and someone hits you, you will take a small amount of health damage (unless they have a maul).

The reality of mortals combat is everyone constantly resetting their blocks every 2 seconds in order to get parries (and to avoid the blocking damage).


I believe taking real damage from a blocked hit is highly illogical, and consequently quite counter-intuitive for new players.



As an extra, we are also facing the issue of some people attempting to time their hits in order to hit between parry refreshes.

Changing block damage to stamina damage instead of health damage, will lessen the penalty for not parrying instead of blocking, and in some situations may result in choosing to hold the block instead of resetting the parry right away, to avoid the above situation.



The exact stamina damage taken while blocking would need to be tested, but that's what we have the alpha for.


What are your thoughts?

The hits between blocks that do blocked damage, thats a bug not a feature.
This suggestions is more of a bandaid then a fix to the core issue.
The core issue is already on the dev tracker.

Stamina damage is a bit stupid in 1vX situations where you have to carefully manage stam and block like aloot.
Iam against it.

In reality if a block isnt done properly the swing could still scratch you and do a bit damage.

 

[Valoran]

The hits between blocks that do blocked damage, thats a bug not a feature.
This suggestions is more of a bandaid then a fix to the core issue.
The core issue is already on the dev tracker.

Stamina damage is a bit stupid in 1vX situations where you have to carefully manage stam and block like aloot.
Iam against it.

In reality if a block isnt done properly the swing could still scratch you and do a bit damage.

Like I said in the other thread, with current values in place you would have to be hit so many times to actually stam out from blocking hits that you would be dead anyway at the moment.

Everyone knows that everyone is going to attempt to parry regardless, so blocking hits will be a relatively rare thing to happen, and when it does it simply makes more sense for it to be stamina damage.



Here's a little thought experiment:

Imagine it was always stamina damage, and someone was asking for it to be changed to real damage.

To me at least, that sounds rather silly and would undoubtedly be shot down immediately. But because it has always been this way it's another story.

 

[ElPerro]

Gotta disagree on this one. Going around blocks is one of the only way for high ping players to beat low pingers atm, like it was in MO1. Taking this away will just add to the parry whore meta. Not to mention, it will be really annoying in 1vX or group fights where you may not always get the best angle for parrys.

 

[Livingshade]

mate do you have ANY IDEA about the words coming out of your own mouth? OF COURSE blocking will have damage when you dont PERFECTLY parry in real life, the block will hurt your wrist very much or it will move your weapon a little so their weapon hits your body and hurt you a little

 

[Valoran]

mate do you have ANY IDEA about the words coming out of your own mouth? OF COURSE blocking will have damage when you dont PERFECTLY parry in real life, the block will hurt your wrist very much or it will move your weapon a little so their weapon hits your body and hurt you a little

Hitting someones weapon or shield is hitting their weapon or shield.

You can't assume that every time someone hits another persons weapon or shield that they will not compensate somehow to avoid their own weapon smacking into them.


It's one thing to assume vague comparisons to real life, but I don't think the game should be designed around:

"Just pretend it was real life and imagine something that might go wrong, that's why it happens the way it does in game."


I prefer to have intuitive logical design, in which hitting someones shield or weapon while they're holding it doesn't hurt them.

 

[Valoran]

Furthermore, the argument that you don't want to stam out easier during a fight isn't really valid, because a good player shouldn't be sprinting around swinging until they hit zero stamina then die.

That's how inexperienced players behave, and they should learn quickly not to do that, stamina management is a core component of fighting in Mortal and needs to be taken seriously.


A good player should not even notice that this was changed because they will be parrying attacks.

 

[Valoran]

We also need to acknowledge that every single new player has held a block in the right direction, been hit in that direction, still taken damage and sat there thinking "....What?"

 

[Livingshade]

Hitting someones weapon or shield is hitting their weapon or shield.

You can't assume that every time someone hits another persons weapon or shield that they will not compensate somehow to avoid their own weapon smacking into them.


It's one thing to assume vague comparisons to real life, but I don't think the game should be designed around:

"Just pretend it was real life and imagine something that might go wrong, that's why it happens the way it does in game."


I prefer to have intuitive logical design, in which hitting someones shield or weapon while they're holding it doesn't hurt them.

you cant assume they will compensate too like what is this cancer logic do you have ANY idea ANY how common it is for a block to not work in real life?? happens ALL the time, especially when you have some small weapon like a rapier trying to block a halberd itll go THROUGH

 

[Valoran]

you cant assume they will compensate too like what is this cancer logic do you have ANY idea ANY how common it is for a block to not work in real life?? happens ALL the time, especially when you have some small weapon like a rapier trying to block a halberd itll go THROUGH

Attempting to draw comparisons to real life combat in regard to mortals combat will fail immediately, as the games combat is not realistic at all, in any sense of the word.

The only thing that we can realistically aim for is believable interaction within the game world.

Meaning if I hit someones sword and not them, and my sword bounces off theirs as it does in the game, that person will not be harmed.


The same goes for shields. If I hit someones shield and we can see in real time that my weapon has bounced off the shield, they should not be harmed.

It doesn't take much in depth analysis or comparisons to come to the conclusion that the current system is simply illogical and due for an update. The only reason people are cautious of this change at the moment is because it has always been this way, and people tend to hate change.

 

[Teknique]

Like my previous thread regarding equipment hits, this one is also aimed towards making Mortal's combat more logical.

Currently if you hold a block for too long, and someone hits you, you will take a small amount of health damage (unless they have a maul).

The reality of mortals combat is everyone constantly resetting their blocks every 2 seconds in order to get parries (and to avoid the blocking damage).


I believe taking real damage from a blocked hit is highly illogical, and consequently quite counter-intuitive for new players.



As an extra, we are also facing the issue of some people attempting to time their hits in order to hit between parry refreshes.

Changing block damage to stamina damage instead of health damage, will lessen the penalty for not parrying instead of blocking, and in some situations may result in choosing to hold the block instead of resetting the parry right away, to avoid the above situation.



The exact stamina damage taken while blocking would need to be tested, but that's what we have the alpha for.


What are your thoughts?

My concern is that all these attempts to balance 1v1s are gonna ruin team fights.

 

[Valoran]

My concern is that all these attempts to balance 1v1s are gonna ruin team fights.

I understand the concern, but lets think about these numbers realistically.

Getting an equipment hit or damage while blocking will in most cases deal about 5-20 damage. Taking that much stamina damage is completely negligible and would be regenerated in a couple seconds while standing still.


Not taking damage unless you have actually been hit is a good thing, isn't it?

 

[ElPerro]

I understand the concern, but lets think about these numbers realistically.

Getting an equipment hit or damage while blocking will in most cases deal about 5-20 damage. Taking that much stamina damage is completely negligible and would be regenerated in a couple seconds while standing still.


Not taking damage unless you have actually been hit is a good thing, isn't it?

This just sounds like the return of 360 blocking to me, and a bigger advantage for low pingers

 

[Phen]

I understand the concern, but lets think about these numbers realistically.

Getting an equipment hit or damage while blocking will in most cases deal about 5-20 damage. Taking that much stamina damage is completely negligible and would be regenerated in a couple seconds while standing still.


Not taking damage unless you have actually been hit is a good thing, isn't it?

Yes and no, some weapons like the sledge / maul should get a higher block over parry chance as they are ment to go through blocks to cause damage. Really to stun/knock someone down to take a easy advantage..

I see where your going, though some weapons are ment for particular usages. As the shield is for blocking, I think any equipment hits should account for some stam loss and blocking damage. Giving some damage ( 5-15 ) for the impact itself ( <--- believe it or not peoples arms would break using shields. ), equipment hits imo should reduce durability and in some ways should add a mesh hit that studders a players swing momentarily as a " draw stun", similar to the draw mesh contact concept with small delay for redrawing/blocking. Preventing statue combat a little as players could then attack equipment and have something gain from it.

Otherwise the combat is enjoyable, just gotta fix that random parry block issue. Even though I still think any parry or block should have some stam drain added to the original attempt. Then people my not wanna be little turtle turtle.

-Phen

 

[Neftan]

Why not both?

Make parries a soft bit of stamina damage so it can't be endless - I think this already exists? If not, add it. 1 x X should be something that is possible but not easy. Right now it is easy to parry multiple targets for a long time.

And on blocks - both! Some chip damage to account for the impact, and some stamina damage (more than a parry). In fairness, it would be exhausting to eat a blow, even with a shield.

 

[Livingshade]

Attempting to draw comparisons to real life combat in regard to mortals combat will fail immediately, as the games combat is not realistic at all, in any sense of the word.

The only thing that we can realistically aim for is believable interaction within the game world.

Meaning if I hit someones sword and not them, and my sword bounces off theirs as it does in the game, that person will not be harmed.


The same goes for shields. If I hit someones shield and we can see in real time that my weapon has bounced off the shield, they should not be harmed.

It doesn't take much in depth analysis or comparisons to come to the conclusion that the current system is simply illogical and due for an update. The only reason people are cautious of this change at the moment is because it has always been this way, and people tend to hate change.

MATE IF IT BOUNCE THEN THERE IS SO MUCH FORCE THEN SO IT WILL HURT

 

[Valoran]

This just sounds like the return of 360 blocking to me, and a bigger advantage for low pingers

I'm not sure what you mean?

This will not change being able to hit someone in the back at all.

 

[Valoran]

Yes and no, some weapons like the sledge / maul should get a higher block over parry chance as they are ment to go through blocks to cause damage. Really to stun/knock someone down to take a easy advantage..

I see where your going, though some weapons are ment for particular usages. As the shield is for blocking, I think any equipment hits should account for some stam loss and blocking damage. Giving some damage ( 5-15 ) for the impact itself ( <--- believe it or not peoples arms would break using shields. ), equipment hits imo should reduce durability and in some ways should add a mesh hit that studders a players swing momentarily as a " draw stun", similar to the draw mesh contact concept with small delay for redrawing/blocking. Preventing statue combat a little as players could then attack equipment and have something gain from it.

Otherwise the combat is enjoyable, just gotta fix that random parry block issue. Even though I still think any parry or block should have some stam drain added to the original attempt. Then people my not wanna be little turtle turtle.

-Phen

We currently do have stamina drain when attempting a block. Maybe that could be increased, but i'm pretty sure it's already based off of weapon weight.

When shields are implemented properly heavier shields will cost more stamina to block with, as they do in MO1.


It would actually fit really well to have very heavy weapons always be blocks and not parries, as attempting to parry a maul with a small sword would not really work.
You could certainly avoid taking damage, but it would likely tire you a little and you wouldn't be in a good position to riposte. This is assuming you have actually hit the weapon aside.


Thus with my suggested change, attempting to parry very heavy weapons would result in you losing stamina and not being able to counter attack if the difference in weight is significant. In that scenario you would already have a massive speed advantage so I think it balances quite well.

 

[Valoran]

Why not both?

Make parries a soft bit of stamina damage so it can't be endless - I think this already exists? If not, add it. 1 x X should be something that is possible but not easy. Right now it is easy to parry multiple targets for a long time.

And on blocks - both! Some chip damage to account for the impact, and some stamina damage (more than a parry). In fairness, it would be exhausting to eat a blow, even with a shield.

The reason why I don't agree with having both is due to the illogical nature of taking damage from someone hitting your equipment.

The game can be re-balanced in a way that makes this change really good for gameplay, whilst maintaining a believable system which we currently don't have.

It's a win-win.