SPinning / twisty animation pvp bad
- Thread starter rgarrett
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Let me start off by saying that you will be insulted for this statement, be warned XD
Regardless, I will explain why you are wrong in this statement in very simple terms :
- 1. Im not a good player, im around average, i kill a lot of people, but i barely ever duel. Im at a comfortable half way between utter shit and extreme skill, yet, if i fight somebody and they do not spin, hide animations, jump-spin, 180 degrees feint looking up, etc... I will parry 95% of everything they throw at me. This is fact, if you want, come to Tindrem and I will prove it to you in however many duels you want to do. And you gotta understand, i am not that good, I lack experience. There are much better people out there that will parry literally 100% of everything you do not spin.
- 2. Regarding the second phrase, ive never played MO1 and i think spinning, as the game is right now, is a hard requirement for PVP in 1v1 all the way to small scale. Large scale it does not matter what you do, but for anything below a 5vs5 you need it.
Regarding this, yes, you can always die to a Risar commander, but the main difference between a risar commander and a player is the fact that the risar commander swings his weapon quite literally Instantly after a parry. I can parry them only because of my small ping ,but I cant even imagine how difficult it is for NA people.
Regardless of all this, in a way, you are right, you don't need to morph attacks in order to win battles.
But you do need to morph attacks in order to win against other people that morph attacks, so, therefor... it kindof is a requirement, im sorry , but , this is fact....
It's not a fact. Players chose to make spinning a requirement because of how effective it is to bypass peoples blocks. And the mere fact, that people even get hit by AI feinting is proof that these buggy fighting techniques are not required.
People spin because it makes things easy, it allows for you to ignore game mechanics. You add triple feinting or double feinting with spinning and morphing, no matter how experience you are, you cant mechanically block it. So people adopt the tactic of jumping away from their opponent.
And sure if you live on the server , you have super low ping. Yea you should be able to parry literally any simple attack. But you don't run into master feinters in this game.90% of the pvper's are jumping and spinning and morphing their camera for the dub. Its silly. Not a requirement, just the path of least resistance and players will always choose this route if the devs allow for the system to be ..well...bypassed.
Well, the playerbase makes it a requirement. That is what im trying to say, if you dont do it, you're at a disadvantage.
Its the game's fault, not the players'.
If the game had a better way of countering parries, this would not be a thing.
regardless if im bad talk shit all day
disregard that sad mentality
the mechanic is bad
you cant honestly sit here and tell me that the spinning shit is cool its not
its afake korny and bad u should not be able to do this
nerf asap make the space sim people black out when they do this problem solved
pvp with feints and movement
the spinning shit is absolute pathetic pvp
its bad
disregard that sad mentality
the mechanic is bad
you cant honestly sit here and tell me that the spinning shit is cool its not
its afake korny and bad u should not be able to do this
nerf asap make the space sim people black out when they do this problem solved
pvp with feints and movement
the spinning shit is absolute pathetic pvp
its bad
Totally agree btw, spinning makes you look like a complete jackass.
But adapt and overcome, or die and regear...
But you cant limit the spins without adding something else in place to compensate... or else pvp will become a very sluggish endless fight of ... boredom... Stale encounters... nobody wants that
D
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I can't wait for this guy to learn that there is no momentum in the game. Good luck hitting Veela rats that that move at 500+ move speed while being able to turn 180 degrees and maintain full speed.
Most good fighters actually rarely spin. They find a way to morph their swings, use tricky animation+body movement combos, accels etc. Spinning is a two-edged sword - while it makes harder for an opponent to see your animations clearly, you can't see theirs at all or can even simply lose your opponent.
Spins and animation abuse come with the territory of swing manipulation systems, it's one of the flaws of the genre. It's been a common complaint since Chivalry 1 and followed in to Mordhau(Though not as bad as Chiv 1). Even the top comp groups and players share the sentiment it shouldn't be a thing, but accepted it was going to stick around. Chiv 2 has somewhat fixed the issue, by limiting the swing manipulation and movement, but you can still do some funky spinny shit.
The main skill apart of the whole spin/animation fuckery, is learning to read attack animations(if they're not hiding them). People defending abusing broken animations as skill, are somewhat right as the skill aspect involves the player identifying animations and countering it. But the counter argument overrides this and makes their argument moot, as the ability to cheese out animations to make them unreadable or hide strikes, shouldn't be apart of the game in the first place. It's abuse of something broken. But it's up to SV to fix the issue.
MO2 is in the same situation as Mordhau, where you just have to accept it and join in doing it - You know, the old "If you can't beat em, join em" type of situation. The only real way to address spins is by adding proper swing + movement inertia and spin caps(deacceleration). The extreme method is animation locking, but anim locks are horrible.
Fixing the animation abuse comes down to the animators, to make sure 3P animations aren't able to be exploited/abused in a way that makes them near unreadable while doing fast movements, without disturbing feint viability
Just be glad we can't properly do overhead spin attacks(can do them somewhat), wessex drags and super wonky spin drags where stabs and overheads look like they're left or rights swings from animations fucking out. End of the day, aids spinning and animation abuse is the only way to break the boring MO2 turtle parry bot PvP. Without proper guard breaks and faster combat, spins and animation abuse is the only method to deal with the slower and more forgiving combat in MO2, compared to MO1.
The main skill apart of the whole spin/animation fuckery, is learning to read attack animations(if they're not hiding them). People defending abusing broken animations as skill, are somewhat right as the skill aspect involves the player identifying animations and countering it. But the counter argument overrides this and makes their argument moot, as the ability to cheese out animations to make them unreadable or hide strikes, shouldn't be apart of the game in the first place. It's abuse of something broken. But it's up to SV to fix the issue.
MO2 is in the same situation as Mordhau, where you just have to accept it and join in doing it - You know, the old "If you can't beat em, join em" type of situation. The only real way to address spins is by adding proper swing + movement inertia and spin caps(deacceleration). The extreme method is animation locking, but anim locks are horrible.
Fixing the animation abuse comes down to the animators, to make sure 3P animations aren't able to be exploited/abused in a way that makes them near unreadable while doing fast movements, without disturbing feint viability
Just be glad we can't properly do overhead spin attacks(can do them somewhat), wessex drags and super wonky spin drags where stabs and overheads look like they're left or rights swings from animations fucking out. End of the day, aids spinning and animation abuse is the only way to break the boring MO2 turtle parry bot PvP. Without proper guard breaks and faster combat, spins and animation abuse is the only method to deal with the slower and more forgiving combat in MO2, compared to MO1.
Whenever someone spins, I just figure 8 around them and land headshots; they usually stop after getting hit in the head twice.
spinning itself makes complete sense because it allows you to strike in an arc in any direction. So movement and spinning (not continuous 360, but swinging 'at the air' where you know or think someone will be coming in) is quality gameplay. All things being equal, a person could parry that sort of play, but the moment they tried to do something back (counter strike for instance,) they would be open. That's why I think an actual guard break (as in each time you get hit, a shield meter shows and it gets lower over time until you are locked out of being able to parry for x amount of time) would be a good mechanic. Yeah, it would increase the speed/spam of a fight, but I dunno how that would be bad. If your opponent wasn't able to play it perfectly, you'd still be able to parry and get a counter hit. Could even have it reset some of your guard each time you got hit.
I still envision the highest level of Mortal Online combat as two players moving around and hitting each other with the very tips of their swings, parrying at times, but more of a dance... and yea it would contain spins and probably even feints/swing hides, but the thing is, by someone's position and your position, there is only certain ways they can reach you if you are proper distance apart. There are also ways to close that with a swing to hit them first or a counter. I mean drawing a swing into the area someone is trying to enter to feint/morph/w/e should dissuade them and make them step back.
MO would be more playable with good combat, but I think the game would still be trash cuz lag and 'other things.' What bothers me is I can say all this shit and people don't understand it haha. TO ME, it makes perfect sense. The only way to stop such a combat system from flourishing is to have someone who would just parry everything and never do anything else, hence a guard break.
Then we can really talk about gitting gud. All the tricks you guys have been practicing up until now would still be useful, it would just not be THE WHOLE GAME. Because no matter how you disguise your swing, if the person can get to an area where you can only hit them with a certain type of swing, it's moot. But yea quick rotating your camera is def smart play, allows more areas to be hit by more type of swings. When I personally say spinning is wack, I'm talking about two people standing in front of each other and doing standstill 360s in hope someone gets a hit.
If you add the extra dimension of quick and longer range movement to those mechanics, you basically made combat twice as complex. But you have to find a way to stop people from just walking you down and parrying (cuz if you can't, you will find that people will be able to force that face to face spinning combat regardless.)
My 2c, I fully expect everyone to say I dunno wtf I'm talking about, but hopefully some new, thoughtful person will understand.
Bye now, lovelies.
I still envision the highest level of Mortal Online combat as two players moving around and hitting each other with the very tips of their swings, parrying at times, but more of a dance... and yea it would contain spins and probably even feints/swing hides, but the thing is, by someone's position and your position, there is only certain ways they can reach you if you are proper distance apart. There are also ways to close that with a swing to hit them first or a counter. I mean drawing a swing into the area someone is trying to enter to feint/morph/w/e should dissuade them and make them step back.
MO would be more playable with good combat, but I think the game would still be trash cuz lag and 'other things.' What bothers me is I can say all this shit and people don't understand it haha. TO ME, it makes perfect sense. The only way to stop such a combat system from flourishing is to have someone who would just parry everything and never do anything else, hence a guard break.
Then we can really talk about gitting gud. All the tricks you guys have been practicing up until now would still be useful, it would just not be THE WHOLE GAME. Because no matter how you disguise your swing, if the person can get to an area where you can only hit them with a certain type of swing, it's moot. But yea quick rotating your camera is def smart play, allows more areas to be hit by more type of swings. When I personally say spinning is wack, I'm talking about two people standing in front of each other and doing standstill 360s in hope someone gets a hit.
If you add the extra dimension of quick and longer range movement to those mechanics, you basically made combat twice as complex. But you have to find a way to stop people from just walking you down and parrying (cuz if you can't, you will find that people will be able to force that face to face spinning combat regardless.)
My 2c, I fully expect everyone to say I dunno wtf I'm talking about, but hopefully some new, thoughtful person will understand.
Bye now, lovelies.
I think people who likes the spin/animation thing are people who has already spent hundreds/thousands of hours learning mouse patterns to conceal swing directions.
Why wouldnt they? its basically a free win vs anyone who are not initiated into this.
But is it a realistic learning curve for people? Is it good for the game? New people would have to be coached to learn these mechanics, and to master them? Hundreds/thousands of hours.
I dont think most people even get to the coaching part they just get demoralized at seeing people spin around and thinking desyncs are happening when they swing-conceal because it looks like a swing that isnt happening.
Why wouldnt they? its basically a free win vs anyone who are not initiated into this.
But is it a realistic learning curve for people? Is it good for the game? New people would have to be coached to learn these mechanics, and to master them? Hundreds/thousands of hours.
I dont think most people even get to the coaching part they just get demoralized at seeing people spin around and thinking desyncs are happening when they swing-conceal because it looks like a swing that isnt happening.
As you can see, some people like the spinning and consider it something you need to learn to be competitive. Which is true. So yeah, either learn it or move on to another game if you want to be competitive in small scale.
People get stuck in their ways and don't like change if they've invested time into things. In MO1 learning to abuse prediction was also considered a "skill". It was fairly easy to learn, but new players complained about getting wrecked for being hit around their blocks. Which is a valid complaint.
As others have said, removing spinning without adding new mechanics to get around parries would be terrible since spinning is the only real way to do it currently. Star Vault needed to experiment with more stuff in the "combat alpha" such as kicks or whatever. Instead they gave us "ping normalization" and 360 blocking...which is why combat is the way it is.
To be fair though, the combat in this game is always going to be hated on by the majority as long as they have one server instead of NA/EU. Ping advantage is real.
People get stuck in their ways and don't like change if they've invested time into things. In MO1 learning to abuse prediction was also considered a "skill". It was fairly easy to learn, but new players complained about getting wrecked for being hit around their blocks. Which is a valid complaint.
As others have said, removing spinning without adding new mechanics to get around parries would be terrible since spinning is the only real way to do it currently. Star Vault needed to experiment with more stuff in the "combat alpha" such as kicks or whatever. Instead they gave us "ping normalization" and 360 blocking...which is why combat is the way it is.
To be fair though, the combat in this game is always going to be hated on by the majority as long as they have one server instead of NA/EU. Ping advantage is real.
You do realize that adding guard breaks or kicks is extremely zerg friendly? U make it sound like a negative that the game has a learning curve lol
That spinning bullshit Is not only unrealistic af comparing it to anything in reality and then its absolutly retarded in terms of fighting. Like someone can do 5 360° spins in 3 secconds, in the air while holding and feinting weapon ROFLMAO.
I applaud the players that learned to do that and like it, but that bullshit is un-defendable, It's a fucking disaster SV lets that garbage happen in combat.
Maybe we have different "silly" definition, cuz for me silly is watching a motherfucker spinning in the air holding a weapon XD
Yeah don't need to do it for pvp and yes it Is a fucking joke XD
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na its just lame remove it asap u can call your jackass spin maneuver competitive its just bad not a good mechanic at all and shouldn't be learned by anyone remove it so we can play the game how it should be played