Remove skill cap for crafting

[finegamingconnoisseur]

EVE Online is the reason why I think profession points need to be limited.

In EVE, no one actively seeks out interaction with you (except when they want to pvp you) because there's no need to. Any character can train any skill to any level, and buying or selling things on the market is an impersonal, non-interactive affair.

I want the need to approach another player, talk to them, trade or make deals with them, and that feeling that I can't get or do certain things without their help.

 

[Zbuciorn]

It takes 2-3 characters to have all the basics needed by warrior covered.
Small group of friend is able to stay independent if they have access to the magic word "resources"

 

[Kaemik]

I've said this before in several other topics, but the issue is Mortal Online uses a cut and paste crafting system found in nearly every MMO with only ingredient complexity to set it apart in any way. This is not obvious, because it is so rare to have experienced a truly unique crafting system these days. But the general format is:

Gather Resources (This takes time and effort) > Setup and Execute Crafting Recipe (This takes a click and a short timer) > Finished Item

That's not a crafting system. That's a glorified gathering system. EVE isn't a crafting system. It's a factory management system.

Wurm Online has a crafting system. Wurm Online has the ONLY true crafting system found in MMOs, at least among the ones I have played. Wurm Online works like this:

Gather Resource (This this takes time and effort) > Assemble complex item and/or make and improve an item (this takes time and effort) > Finished Item

You see the difference? A REAL crafting system doesn't load all the crafting's effort into the gathering portion. A real crafting system gives crafters value by making crafting take time and effort. Once you have that you can increase the difficulty of leveling a profession and remove caps entirely.

"But everyone will do everything." Not if it takes time and effort to raise your skills. Plus dedicated crafters SHOULD be able to do a couple professions. Right now we are handing out freebie professions to people who don't even enjoy crafting making everyone feel forced to do it. That's not how it should work. People who actually ENJOY crafting should be the crafters of their guilds. There are several people in my guild who would never lift a finger to craft again if I could do it for them on one character, but who are crafting now because it's so easy, and because we need them too due to skillcaps. That's a bad thing.

"But making thousands of daggers to level crafting is boring." That's not how you raise skills in a REAL crafting system that takes time and effort. Burning materials on crap is a symptom of a gathering skewed "crafting" system. When crafting takes actual work, you can level on a smaller number of items, and it becomes far easier to make things of actual value.

"But this is boring. I don't like the idea of crafting taking a long time." Then don't be a crafter. If you don't enjoy crafting, don't do it. Thinking a crafting system should be catered to people who want it to be over fast is no better than people who come here asking for PvP toggles because they don't like PvP.
_________

While Wurm's crafting system has rich complexity, and I would LOVE to see any other MMO including Mortal Online attempt to rival it. It doesn't NEED to be that complex. Giving crafting actions a simple mini-game like Fable 2 Blacksmithing and having it take say 2-5 minutes to make a piece of gear, with player accuracy and skill decreasing those times and perhaps even giving a chance to produce a masterwork version of the item over a high enough accuracy threshold would be fine.

The idea is, it shouldn't be over in seconds. Nor should it be something like extraction where you just sit there in wait. It should take time, and you should actually have to pay attention and put forth effort during that time. (Wouldn't mind seeing that principle applied to extraction as well TBH)

 

[Zbuciorn]

"But everyone will do everything." Not if it takes time and effort to raise your skills. Plus dedicated crafters SHOULD be able to do a couple professions. Right now we are handing out freebie professions to people who don't even enjoy crafting making everyone feel forced to do it. That's not how it should work. People who actually ENJOY crafting should be the crafters of their guilds. There are several people in my guild who would never lift a finger to craft again if I could do it for them on one character, but who are crafting now because it's so easy, and because we need them too due to skillcaps. That's a bad thing.

This is very interesting point of view.Some players get their 1200 points not even wanting to have anything to do with crafting.

 

[Archiel]

I've said this before in several other topics, but the issue is Mortal Online uses a cut and paste crafting system found in nearly every MMO with only ingredient complexity to set it apart in any way. This is not obvious, because it is so rare to have experienced a truly unique crafting system these days. But the general format is:

Gather Resources (This takes time and effort) > Setup and Execute Crafting Recipe (This takes a click and a short timer) > Finished Item

That's not a crafting system. That's a glorified gathering system. EVE isn't a crafting system. It's a factory management system.

Wurm Online has a crafting system. Wurm Online has the ONLY true crafting system found in MMOs, at least among the ones I have played. Wurm Online works like this:

Gather Resource (This this takes time and effort) > Assemble complex item and/or make and improve an item (this takes time and effort) > Finished Item

You see the difference? A REAL crafting system doesn't load all the crafting's effort into the gathering portion. A real crafting system gives crafters value by making crafting take time and effort. Once you have that you can increase the difficulty of leveling a profession and remove caps entirely.

"But everyone will do everything." Not if it takes time and effort to raise your skills. Plus dedicated crafters SHOULD be able to do a couple professions. Right now we are handing out freebie professions to people who don't even enjoy crafting making everyone feel forced to do it. That's not how it should work. People who actually ENJOY crafting should be the crafters of their guilds. There are several people in my guild who would never lift a finger to craft again if I could do it for them on one character, but who are crafting now because it's so easy, and because we need them too due to skillcaps. That's a bad thing.

"But making thousands of daggers to level crafting is boring." That's not how you raise skills in a REAL crafting system that takes time and effort. Burning materials on crap is a symptom of a gathering skewed "crafting" system. When crafting takes actual work, you can level on a smaller number of items, and it becomes far easier to make things of actual value.

"But this is boring. I don't like the idea of crafting taking a long time." Then don't be a crafter. If you don't enjoy crafting, don't do it. Thinking a crafting system should be catered to people who want it to be over fast is no better than people who come here asking for PvP toggles because they don't like PvP.
_________

While Wurm's crafting system has rich complexity, and I would LOVE to see any other MMO including Mortal Online attempt to rival it. It doesn't NEED to be that complex. Giving crafting actions a simple mini-game like Fable 2 Blacksmithing and having it take say 2-5 minutes to make a piece of gear, with player accuracy and skill decreasing those times and perhaps even giving a chance to produce a masterwork version of the item over a high enough accuracy threshold would be fine.

The idea is, it shouldn't be over in seconds. Nor should it be something like extraction where you just sit there in wait. It should take time, and you should actually have to pay attention and put forth effort during that time. (Wouldn't mind seeing that principle applied to extraction as well TBH)

When you are crafting gear so your guildies can get back out to fight you don't want a crafting system that takes a long time.
More in-depth crafting would be great but this isn't that type of game, sometimes you have to pump out 5 sets of armor for your guild to be able to fight.

 

[Kaemik]

When you are crafting gear so your guildies can get back out to fight you don't want a crafting system that takes a long time.
More in-depth crafting would be great but this isn't that type of game, sometimes you have to pump out 5 sets of armor for your guild to be able to fight.

That's why we need ready bags and more bank slots. Nobody made me new ships in the middle of EVE fights. Nobody made new ready bag in the middle of a siege in Darkfall.

You should have your gear ready ahead of time. I get that you currently can't, because the bank won't support it. But rather than settling for a crap crafting system, we should encourage them to solve the problems other PvP games solved over a decade ago.

 

[Kuroi]

why even play mmoRPG games if you want to do everything by yourself? just play something like rust or tarkov instead

"But everyone will do everything." Not if it takes time and effort to raise your skills. Plus dedicated crafters SHOULD be able to do a couple professions. Right now we are handing out freebie professions to people who don't even enjoy crafting making everyone feel forced to do it. That's not how it should work. People who actually ENJOY crafting should be the crafters of their guilds. There are several people in my guild who would never lift a finger to craft again if I could do it for them on one character, but who are crafting now because it's so easy, and because we need them too due to skillcaps. That's a bad thing.

if your comrades don't want to craft cause they don't like it, then DON'T. just BUY your stuff from people, let the game be economy driven as it is supposed to be.

 

[Kaemik]

why even play mmoRPG games if you want to do everything by yourself? just play something like rust or tarkov instead



if your comrades don't want to craft cause they don't like it, then DON'T. just BUY your stuff from people, let the game be economy driven as it is supposed to be.

Why? Crafting is a freebie to every account. Skillcap is the main limiter, even post launch once you finish your combat build you can build a crafter with books. And it takes a few seconds per item.

In the current system, it's just dumb to not have a crafting profession. It's a freebie bonus to every account.

 

[Kuroi]

Why? Crafting is a freebie to every account. Skillcap is the main limiter, even post launch once you finish your combat build you can build a crafter with books. And it takes a few seconds per item.

In the current system, it's just dumb to not have a crafting profession. It's a freebie bonus to every account.

Because you said that your guildies don't like crafting. so why do they should feel forced to do it? just tell em to buy the equipment they need, keep the economy up.

it's just like saying that someone doesn't like fighting, yeah Actions skills are a freebie but what if someone just doesn't like it and wants to sit in town/keep crafting and experimenting all day long?

it's just a matter of playstyle, personally i love Alchemy (as a skill per se in every game, not just in MO) and i would just skill up its relatives and make/experiment potions all day long, running a shop etc., especially if i have a guild that will go pve and can get me mats. if i didn't have mats i would buy them in some way, i don't like pve-ing

it may sound dumb focussing on just one tree (actions or professions) but if someone likes just one of them, why should they feel obliged to do both?

 

[Archiel]

That's why we need ready bags and more bank slots. Nobody made me new ships in the middle of EVE fights. Nobody made new ready bag in the middle of a siege in Darkfall.

You should have your gear ready ahead of time. I get that you currently can't, because the bank won't support it. But rather than settling for a crap crafting system, we should encourage them to solve the problems other PvP games solved over a decade ago.

Have you participated in a war in MO? Ready bags go quick when you are fighting outnumbered and that's all part of the fun, but when people come to help you defend they sometimes (most of the time) need gear to help out.

I like the core of your ideas about more in depth crafting with a mini game and being able to dive right into a craft, i have been a bowcrafter for many years once you figure out recipes there isn't much else to do.
MO is a vastly different game to Wurm and just because something is better/more in depth doesn't mean it would fit in everywhere.

 

[Kaemik]

Because you said that your guildies don't like crafting. so why do they should feel forced to do it? just tell em to buy the equipment they need, keep the economy up.

Because when you want a 104 strength bow, you don't want to go shopping for a 104 strength bow. You want to tell your bowcrafter, who looks it up in their charts, and makes you the best 104 strength bow their materials allow for.

When you want a 15kg set of armor, you don't want to shop around for all the right pieces. You want to go to a guild armor crafter, tell them your armor weight and any additional specifications and get armor made the way you want it.

Dagasi doesn't really like crafting, but when it takes her a few seconds to make someone a sword and I just hand her the mats and tell her what to make, she'll get it done without compliant.

Assuming people will just use the broker doesn't reflect the usual reality. Not unless crafting takes time and effort as I have suggested. You don't have to love something to just bear through it when the total crafting time from unbanking mats to handing someone the finished goods is like a minute or two.

You want to people to buy your stuff? Support the idea of crafting as a legitimate profession as opposed to a freebie for everyone as it is now. Yes some guild crafters will take up three professions, but if the crafting grind is meaningful (which it can be once the focus is on time invested over mat burn), they'll be worse than the weaponsmith who only makes weapons for two years.

That's how I became renowned as a fine carpenter in Wurm's early steam release. Some of the villages that hired me had their own fine carpenter (some guy who did fine carpentery along with 3 other jobs). They hired me, because all I did was sail around doing fine carpentry for hire, so I was simply better than all but one or two other guys, and those guys were so busy grinding they weren't sailing around doing jobs the way I was. I also had a supply chain of specialists in their fields I used to provide sheets for wagons, nails etc. My prices literally determined the value of FC jobs for the first month or two after Steam release.

That's the power of a real crafting system. People might not buy your random crap that doesn't fit their build off the broker. But with a good crafting system they might order you out to their guild city to make a large supply of custom bows if you are a renowned bow crafter that can do the job better than the people they have in-house. Or if the job is too large for their in-house people to finish in time.

Have you participated in a war in MO? Ready bags go quick when you are fighting outnumbered and that's all part of the fun, but when people come to help you defend they sometimes (most of the time) need gear to help out.

I have in Darkfall. I had 10+ ready bags of various price points in my bank at all times. At no point did I ever ask people to help me regear midfight. And I'm fighting a war in MO2 right now. I've lost 1 set of gear so far after fighting in multiple major battles. Same in EVE, my corp would throw me several doctrine fits in advance. Also worth noting while EVE didn't work on a time+effort system it VERY much worked on a time system. Some ships took a really long time to produce, they couldn't be remade mid-battle for sure. Nor was someone likely to go up and pick you up refits from Jita in the middle of a battle. You had to have done some forethought about what you would need.

The principles will apply fine here, if we have the inventory capabilities needed to pull it off. Which we need whether or not my crafting suggestions are implemented.

When you aren't fighting you have crafters in your towns and villages pumping out a steady stream of gear to supply you for the next fight. It would make crafting much more involved and some players would have to do nothing but craft outside major battles. I have a feeling the players who end up doing that would be incredibly happy to have it pan out that way.

 

[Tehmudjin]

I get his point. Exploring a profession is fun and I feel like im missing out if i only get to do one of them. Its like picking a dungeon and only get to do that one.

Im not so sure that it would Hurt the market to let players have 2-3 professions. The reason to buy gear is not that you cant make it your self but that you dont want to put in The time to gather materials for everything.

 

[Kuroi]

Because when you want a 104 strength bow, you don't want to go shopping for a 104 strength bow. You want to tell your bowcrafter, who looks it up in their charts, and makes you the best 104 strength bow their materials allow for.

When you want a 15kg set of armor, you don't want to shop around for all the right pieces. You want to go to a guild armor crafter, tell them your armor weight and any additional specifications and get armor made the way you want it.

Dagasi doesn't really like crafting, but when it takes her a few seconds to make someone a sword and I just hand her the mats and tell her what to make, she'll get it done without compliant.

professional crafters will surely be around, they will accept requests and satisfy you for sure.

your guildies just do it now cause it's easy, cause skilling up is 100x faster, we'll see once we get persistent

 

[Breannor]

It is worse because if people are not interested in crafting, it means only "professionnal crafter' will supply and they will start to supply their own guild... So ,it wont be enough for other player outside of their guild to equip and these people will stop to play.

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah that's really how it kind of went down in MO1. The only reliable way to get stuff you need was to make it yourself or be in a guild that can make it, even after brokers came out.

100x slower will mean non-crafters will not be crafting until month 2 or so. After that non-crafters will have long since maxed their combat builds and have read enough crafting books to start making use of freebie crafting.

 

[Keurk]

horrible suggestion...

 

[Tankoua]

I think this is a good idea.
Increasing the number of craft skills will allow the average player to create small communities independent of the "big" structures.
And we know that the only sandbox games that work are because it favors small player structures.

 

[Zbuciorn]

I think this is a good idea.
Increasing the number of craft skills will allow the average player to create small communities independent of the "big" structures.
And we know that the only sandbox games that work are because it favors small player structures.

Small group of 4-5 friends can be fully independent.They access to resourses may be different story and will require a little bit of involvement in server politic.

 

[Breannor]

Small group of 4-5 friends can be fully independent.They access to resourses may be different story and will require a little bit of involvement in server politic.

If you consider they all want to develop craft skill.

 

[Zbuciorn]

If you consider they all want to develop craft skill.

Good items will be crafted mostly for guild use.Well know traders probably will focus on huge amount of materials instead of supplying basic stuff to AH's.So,independent players will tend to try making weapons and armours for their own use or quit the game.