Pets are ruining small scale PVP

[fartbox]

@fartbox
While catering to a pve crowd will certainly bring the masses, its goes against everything MO stands for. Henriks main purpose for making this game was to recreate UO as it was before Trammel. Hes said this many times. He hated the pve cop out of UO. This is why it will never happen here.

The other single most beneficial change for a larger population would be regional servers. Mainly because ping is a huge problem in the enjoyment and competitiveness of the pvp, as well as the obvious reason that you can simply fit more people on more servers.

However, this also goes against one of the main principles of Henrik, as hes said many times. He wants only one single server where everyone plays ogether. The only hope for this is that he has finally relented and agreed that additional continents ( like Sarducca, etc) could possibly be hosted in different world regions. Lets friken hope so.

So as you see, its not only the community you are arguing against. These are core principles of the man in charge. The community is simply a by product of his vision.

"Catering" cannot possibly be accurate. I'm not asking to make the game revolve around casuals, i'm asking you to throw them a bone around starting cities, somewhere around 30% of the map. I don't even think I mentioned PVE content but now that we did; PVE content is also PVP content, the PVE content in full-loot games creates an ecosystem and just like a real ecosystem if it becomes unbalanced it collapses.

I stand to gain or lose very little if Mortal should be unsuccessful or successful. I am not employed by SV nor do I particularly like MO2 when compared to games of the past such as Darkfall, Archeage, or Shadowbane. I only play pvp focused MMO's and there are no shortage of them though Mortal has the novelty of being the newest one. If the games population should take a unsatisfactory turn it would change very little, my loop would repeat, I would return to an older game and await the next release...in this case I believe it will be AOC but who know's as they are as slow as Star citizen on development goals.

 

[grilo]

you could remove all guards for all i care... what i want to see is some role play elements, where your actions bring consequences. as the game is built atm, the only consequences is not to get a big group to gank others because your missing out.

 

[grilo]

well game is dying... so there ya go Mortal online roleplay is ravaging the lands until its baren. gl your almost done.

 

[SeaShadow]

Shouldn't you limit these pet points to force them to choose between strict mounted archer/mage with no pets or weak pets or being on foot with stronger pets? Because if they are on foot, at least they are more vulnerable to getting caught by a foot fighter.

 

[Jackdstripper]

Shouldn't you limit these pet points to force them to choose between strict mounted archer/mage with no pets or weak pets or being on foot with stronger pets? Because if they are on foot, at least they are more vulnerable to getting caught by a foot fighter.

Absolutely. First of all you should never be able to have 3 of anything (even zombies). Secondly you should never be able to command a pet while you are mounted. Thirdly any undead pet should instantly kill non-undead ones.
You should have to choose between one or the other.
Nerfing pets its not hard, there are many ways to do it. Sadly SV is notoriously slow at nerfing their mistakes.

 

[TruthGlass]

The devs already gave into the pve crowd. Everyone left during when streamers were promoting FF14 and the devs freaked out, but it was just naturel, Most of the testers came back the next big patch, but all the talking heads were promoting carebear bullshit that the streamers were promoting to get the mouth breathers that play FF14 to follow them. The devs took it hook line and sinker and started ruining the game, and this is where it got them. They had excitement and intense game play and they gave it up for nothing. If they would have charged the sub at the start it all could have been worth it, but they didn't for what ever reason. Now the pver have ran through the content and the pvpers don't want to play the game. The only thing they could do to recover is ditch the sub and charge for a new continent with proper pvp rules, but most people are not coming back. So they might just be dead in the water.

 

[Zerginfestor]

Absolutely. First of all you should never be able to have 3 of anything (even zombies). Secondly you should never be able to command a pet while you are mounted. Thirdly any undead pet should instantly kill non-undead ones.
You should have to choose between one or the other.
Nerfing pets its not hard, there are many ways to do it. Sadly SV is notoriously slow at nerfing their mistakes.

While I'm not convinced yet of a 2 pet only system due to some animals, I do think this is a solid approach. I like the idea of a Beast Master being their own thing with a powerful own path that has it's pros and cons.

 

[Shadowmist]

The problem isn't pets, it's CERTAIN pets that are way too strong in one way or another.
I play as a dedicated beastmaster and most of my pets die really quickly if focused. People spamming dire wolves, risen taur dogs and celaeno's does not mean PETS are broken, just that those pets are overtuned. Having said that, I sometimes feel it's the same crowd complaining about pets that would call magic OP with 10 PSY. There ARE ways to counter it, and if you choose not to that's up to you. We all need an achilles heel so there is at least some degree of rock/paper/scissors going on for the sake of build diversity.

In general auto attacks of said pets deal too much damage and I agree that power should be redistributed to mailny come from BM abilities. However, with BM being based on a focus bar that only regenerates with autoattacking pets need more defense or HP in addition to the armors that are in the pipeline.

Pets more tanky?!? NO WAY!

Hear me out; If autoattack dmg is significantly lowered, making pets tankier isn't such a big deal, and when you put armor on them you trade that EXTRA survivability for less movement speed, so there is at least balance in theory, We'll have to see how it turns out.

I have several ideas for how to make pets more fun for both the tamer AND for fighting a tamer, but this post would turn into a wall of text so I'll hold off with that for now.

 

[ElPerro]

The problem isn't pets, it's CERTAIN pets that are way too strong in one way or another.
I play as a dedicated beastmaster and most of my pets die really quickly if focused. People spamming dire wolves, risen taur dogs and celaeno's does not mean PETS are broken, just that those pets are overtuned. Having said that, I sometimes feel it's the same crowd complaining about pets that would call magic OP with 10 PSY. There ARE ways to counter it, and if you choose not to that's up to you. We all need an achilles heel so there is at least some degree of rock/paper/scissors going on for the sake of build diversity.

In general auto attacks of said pets deal too much damage and I agree that power should be redistributed to mailny come from BM abilities. However, with BM being based on a focus bar that only regenerates with autoattacking pets need more defense or HP in addition to the armors that are in the pipeline.

Pets more tanky?!? NO WAY!

Hear me out; If autoattack dmg is significantly lowered, making pets tankier isn't such a big deal, and when you put armor on them you trade that EXTRA survivability for less movement speed, so there is at least balance in theory, We'll have to see how it turns out.

I have several ideas for how to make pets more fun for both the tamer AND for fighting a tamer, but this post would turn into a wall of text so I'll hold off with that for now.

If pets cant stickyback veelas anymore and have stam, sure make them more tanky and easier to level.

 

[Shadowmist]

If pets cant stickyback veelas anymore and have stam, sure make them more tanky and easier to level.

Yeah, but a well timed movement speed buff for the pets that have them SHOULD be able to catch up with even the fastest Veela, but that's just for a short duration of the buff.

 

[Zerginfestor]

The problem isn't pets, it's CERTAIN pets that are way too strong in one way or another.
I play as a dedicated beastmaster and most of my pets die really quickly if focused. People spamming dire wolves, risen taur dogs and celaeno's does not mean PETS are broken, just that those pets are overtuned. Having said that, I sometimes feel it's the same crowd complaining about pets that would call magic OP with 10 PSY. There ARE ways to counter it, and if you choose not to that's up to you. We all need an achilles heel so there is at least some degree of rock/paper/scissors going on for the sake of build diversity.

In general auto attacks of said pets deal too much damage and I agree that power should be redistributed to mailny come from BM abilities. However, with BM being based on a focus bar that only regenerates with autoattacking pets need more defense or HP in addition to the armors that are in the pipeline.

Pets more tanky?!? NO WAY!

Hear me out; If autoattack dmg is significantly lowered, making pets tankier isn't such a big deal, and when you put armor on them you trade that EXTRA survivability for less movement speed, so there is at least balance in theory, We'll have to see how it turns out.

I have several ideas for how to make pets more fun for both the tamer AND for fighting a tamer, but this post would turn into a wall of text so I'll hold off with that for now.

Agreed on certain pets being stronger than others, though I honestly don't think most pet auto attacks aren't really any concern. In comparison to other builds, a beastmaster using even dominates, such as the Crab, will have a slower clear time of PvE areas like bandits and the like. The issue with the Beast Mastery in of itself is, in all honesty:
1-Each animal only has 4 skills, not a lot of variety to input special commands to change things up.
2- Most skills are absolute dogwater. A Skill that forces your animal to stop moving, wind up for nearly 3 seconds, and then attack for a lousy 50% boost in damage is horrific, especially in a game where enemies, even in PvE, love to move about. Some animals have faster windup spells, but the delay still has an impact.

Beast Mastery and the auto attack issue isn't the fact that auto attacks are great (they really aren't unless we're going way up there, like ritual white bear/celaeno), because for the most part they're mediocre, but rather beast mastery skills are generally horrible and need a rework. If they seriously wanna keep the silly windup skills, sure, but they need a massive damage boost to make up for the ridiculous tradeoffs, and for God's sake, add more skills that increase utility of pets and increase their duration on some of them, as well as add more damage moves that vary with speed, movement capabilities and damage, of course. Things like Carrion could be impactful, yet because it lasts 25 seconds, it's just a "oh, that's nice, I guess".

 

[Weis]

Agreed on certain pets being stronger than others, though I honestly don't think most pet auto attacks aren't really any concern.

Yeah it would be nice if we had four hotkey options to activate decent well thought out pets skills without needing focus. It would also be nice if we didnt have to LOOK at the target to activate the skills. Auto attacks are fine. If the skills adheared to my statement, we beastmasters would all be happy having weaker damage pets that actually have good skills.

Separate thing but, we did a 12v8 fight yesterday and my team had a Turtle with us. Obviously we wiped the floor with the other team because we had the numbers and properly used our elementalists. But the issue wasnt the turtle being OP or anything, moreso that the reptile and steel footies being hit by the pets chose not to even hit the turtle once. Instead they chose to run circles around it and fight other players. It takes a hot min to kill a steel footie with a turtle. Lil Donatello clocked in 3 kills easy there. But we all know a 420HP turtle is only 6 hits in the head to kill. I dont think the turtle ruined small group PVP there. The other team simply didnt even try to mage bang it or anything.

Basically all this boils down to is PVPers that never did PVE complaining that all pets are OP simply because they have no in game experience fighting the wild animal. All wild pets in the game can be killed by footies that spend more than one minute learning to parry them. And wild pets do more damage, and actually spam their beast mastery skills without needing focus. Skill matters. I threw a 125 Risen Lynx at a footie and it was half healthed in only 2 seconds. Ive also killed footies who decieded to sprint away from the same lynx for 2 minutes because they couldnt figure out how to look down and just hit it lol.

 

[Xrayce]

So has anybody actually done some serious testing?
If you go 1vs1 scenario (what seems to be the hottest topic here)
with respective gear on both sides, who wins when properly played? be it killing the pet or not, depending on the circumstances (I am new so I can only approach this logically, but not with ingame knowledge (yet))
Also is the footie really unable to do anything else against the pets? are there ccs, slows, a way to burst the petowner instead?
did it ever occur to people that some specs simply shouldn't win against others? rock paper scissor like in many games?
are they actually overpowered in a sense, that 90% of the playerbase runs around as a tamer, because it's THE META?

same goes for if you nerf the pets, have you considered the impact on bigger fights, be it 5vs5, 10vs10, more?

so far all I was able to read (and again as a completely new player that tries to focus on the information given here) is, that pets could be overpowered but at the same time a lot of people simply don't know how to handle them?
Also arguments about countering veterans as a new player: you don't have that in chess or anywhere either, new players typically get wrecked no matter the class/gear.
full loot pvp games have a learning curve like any other game it just feels more unforgiving, but that's exactly why people play it, because when you overcome this, it feels great, no?

 

[Jackdstripper]

So has anybody actually done some serious testing?
If you go 1vs1 scenario (what seems to be the hottest topic here)
with respective gear on both sides, who wins when properly played? be it killing the pet or not, depending on the circumstances (I am new so I can only approach this logically, but not with ingame knowledge (yet))
Also is the footie really unable to do anything else against the pets? are there ccs, slows, a way to burst the petowner instead?
did it ever occur to people that some specs simply shouldn't win against others? rock paper scissor like in many games?
are they actually overpowered in a sense, that 90% of the playerbase runs around as a tamer, because it's THE META?

same goes for if you nerf the pets, have you considered the impact on bigger fights, be it 5vs5, 10vs10, more?

so far all I was able to read (and again as a completely new player that tries to focus on the information given here) is, that pets could be overpowered but at the same time a lot of people simply don't know how to handle them?
Also arguments about countering veterans as a new player: you don't have that in chess or anywhere either, new players typically get wrecked no matter the class/gear.
full loot pvp games have a learning curve like any other game it just feels more unforgiving, but that's exactly why people play it, because when you overcome this, it feels great, no?

It is quite clear that you have not read all the comments in this thread for many of these points have been discussed. Here is a short recap.
1) yes, thats why there are 73 replies to this thread, where the average threads in this dead forums is 5 replies.
2) 1vs1 when faced with a strong pet and a similarly skilled opponent you are basically dead. The more pets the harder it is to block especially with lag, desync, and animals clipping into eachother.
3) the only thing you can do against a pet is try your luck at blocking and wear the best armour you have. Regardless, you are 1 vs 2 (or more) because the pet owner is also either casting on you or swinging at you.
4) yes, but if thats the case then some builds should completely own pets. None do. Mounted builds can easily survive pets but a lot of mounteds also have pets.
5)the only reason why not everyone runs around with pets all the time is how long it takes to level them. Sometimes its just too much bother to bring your pet out. In serious non mounted fights every other person has a pet.
5) to balance pets for larger battle they need to implement a defensive mechanic where you can keep your pet alive until you engage. Its the offensive capabilities that destroy small scale pvp, especially the quick attacks coupled with lag and desync shitty animation and pets clipiing into everything.

 

[MolagAmur]

They need to just remove pets ability to attack. Its been 10 years and pets still ruin pvp. They aren't gonna figure out how to balance them if they haven't been able to even come close yet.

 

[Rolufe]

Pets have no stamina bar, thats one of the dumbest things in the game right now.
you can have as many as 4 stupid wolves that, ok, die in 3-4 hits, but lets see you do 16 hits on wolves before a mage and the wolves murder you while you cannot run away because they dont have stamina

Honestly, combat pets should not be in the game at all, in their current form, they should not exist. Period.

Reason for this is that Seb thinks you can solve this much better through cooldowns and such instead of making a stamina bar for pets... I tried telling him its not the same.