Magic in this game and its issues

[Doom and Gloom]

Okay, there has been a lot of talk about MM vs MA recently, this post is NOT about that topic.

Instead, I want to talk about the basic mechanics of magic we have in the game right now, and why they could use some serious work.

1. The logic of fixing magic later with more magic.

We have heard from the developers quite a many times now that the reason that magic isn't super attractive right now, is because we do not have all the schools in the game. In my opinion, it is flawed to add mechanics to the game which are not good enough to support themselves. Do the devs mean that ecumenical school should only be learnt by tamers who wish to heal pets or need the dominate skill? Is that the point of the school's existence? Is the point of there not being many spiritists because the basic ability to practice it is locked behind impossible to solo or even trio content (even if there were no large guilds around) intended so almost no one will use spiritism, maybe like one person in a guild so they have a resurrecter and otherwise the school just doesn't matter?

The mechanics of the schools we have make the mages who choose to use them sitting targets (or ducks) and also are impossible to use as solo in PvE, because of the cast interruption mechanic (more on that later). Why would these schools exist (and remain unchanged as we have heard from Henrik) if there will be many other schools which lack these restrictions? Why would anyone choose to stand still to cast something, if necromancy etc. will allow movement, so we will be able to dodge while casting and potentially even kite some PvE monsters?

Overall, I just cannot understand how they can think it is okay to add a mechanic into the game, which they acknowledge doesn't really work well, but it will be fine because they will some point later add something that will make it maybe worthwhile, without changing the problematic core mechanics first?

SOLUTION:

- The developers have to make sure that every mechanic, (every weapon type, every magic school etc.) is viable on its own, and not just some kind of placeholder.

2. Random spell interruption chance in a skill-based game

Now, I am not opposed to spells being interrupted, of course there has to be a counterplay, but why make the counterplay unreliable to everyone? The current situation leads to decisions like the following in this example scenario:

Setting: Some melee character sees a mage on the ground, the melee character has low resists (psyche) and knows they cannot withstand more than 1-2 spells. The mage does not know this, but starts casting a spell anyways. There is a large rock around. The mage is wearing light armor and can withstand 1-2 hits from the melee character.

Decision: FIGHT or FLIGHT

The melee player has to decide whether they want to try to run up to the mage in order to interrupt them, however, they know that they will only have a 40% chance to interrupt the spell if they make it there. The mage has no choice in this situation, they will have to cast and hope for the best, that is their only option.

Decision1: FIGHT, Option 1:

The melee player decides to try their luck, and runs to the mage. The mage barely finishes their first cast and casts fulmination on the melee character, dealing 50% of their HP (exaggerated damage). Then the melee character strikes when the mage is preparing their next fulmination. This strike interrupt the mage, and they lose their cast, and have to restart. However, the melee player manages to kill the mage before the cast time would finish a second time.

Decision1: FIGHT, Option 2:

The melee player runs to the fight again, but this time their 40% interruption chance is not enough, and the mage manages to cast 2 fulminations on them uninterrupted. The melee player falls.

EDIT: Forgot totally option 3, the melee player resists one or both of the casts (RNG chance) so he will survive long enough to prevail thanks to those.

Decision 2: FLIGHT, Option 1:

The melee player does not believe in his 40% chance of interruption, and instead hides behind the nearby rock. The mage finishes the casting. Now the mage has a fixed time until their spell will fail, so they need to cast it fast. The melee player however can just run away as long as they are behind a cover or far away enough, while the mage risks a lot if they try to pursue, as in case the melee player stays in ambush (as they should against a mage), they will just attack them when the mage's spell-casting window is over.

So with Decision FLIGHT, the mage will always lose or have to give up chase at least. (Even if the mage was mounted, they would still not be able to chase, as every cast time would make them go in a straight line away from their target, and horses are not very dexterous in uneven ground anyways.)

However, the major flaw is in the FIGHT mode, as you can see that in this scenario, neither player was in control of the outcome, it was neither player's skill that resulted into them winning or losing, and there was nothing more to be done. Obviously if the melee player would have been an archer the mage would have basically stood zero chance, as the archer could have just shot, if not interruption they could have still hid behind terrain.

SOLUTION:

Well, obviously the spell-interruption needs to be skill-dependent, or at least the moment when the interruption will happen needs to be clearly visible for BOTH players.
One example solution could be that:

- There is a visible counter/bar on top of players which becomes visible when they first cast in a combat. This bar/counter would show the amount of damage or attacks that needs to be received for their spell to be guaranteed interrupted. In addition to this, I propose that once a spell is interrupted, the next cast cannot be interrupted. This change would remove the possibility that a mage would just stand and attempt to cast, never succeeding and dying, and I don't think anyone think that is cool or intended way of magic.
- This counter would be increased or lowered based on the caster's stats, equipment and skills. For example, higher psyche could also increase this interruption bar, while wearing certain materials could do the same, while wearing some other materials could lower the bar. Additionally, I propose that some mage skills would increase the bar, while lessening their spell damage. In this way mages could opt to play more nuke-heavy or get more reliably their spells out. This would result into more agency, more player choice, and most importantly, no more decisions like before based on luck.


3. Spell damage and resisting it

So, currently this game has a strange mechanic when it comes to resisting spell damage: it is all dependent on one stat, and it includes a RNG-component (resist chance). I'm pretty sure most games also factor in the used equipment at least, which makes being vulnerable to magic more of a player choice. Of course it is a choice to put more points into psyche than your damage skills, but rarely will anyone do that, as the chance of fighting a mage is so low anyway, and psyche doesn't really seem to do anything against PvE enemies (more on that later).

One consensus I have heard from people who oppose "buffing" mages, is that they do "true" damage in a sense as they go through armor. I kinda agree with this sentiment, and thus challenge the design choice: Why do mages need to go through armor? There are already issues with armor versatility because it only has three stats and weight, why wouldn't we make it more interesting by adding magic resistance to certain materials? Then there would actually be a point to have some armor made out of weird materials which can't maybe take the hardest blow, but would keep you safer from magic. And when these would exist, then there would be less of a barrier in "buffing" or what I call making more convenient and sensible to use, of magery mechanics in general, as if mages would get somehow too strong, there would be the option to wear spell armor. I honestly don't understand why the armor is not more versatile, it could easily have different resist values for arrow damage as well.

And of course, the good old RNG has to go from the resist-mechanic, I fail to see what does this add to the game? Makes being a mage in PvP even more unrealiable? how many sources of RNG does magic need?

Also the maximum damage values of magic can be increased if there are more sources of resistance, I think they are quite poor right now compared to what some weapons can do (200+ in one hit) considering the cast times as well.

SOLUTIONS:

- Remove RNG resist chance from psyche and just use flat damage resistance. Add magic resistance to certain materials which can be used in armor crafting to increase armor versatility and allow for counterplay against mages. These changes would allow the magic damage to be increased as well, if necessary, without breaking the game as it would no longer pierce all armor.

- Results into more counterplay options for everyone, and makes mages stronger or at least more reliable against people who do not take precautions.

RUN OUT OF SPACE, a file added, continuing this in the first comment too.

 

[Doom and Gloom]

4. Magic in PvE


Okay, so I have played extensively as a mage and tamer since the launch, and magic and PvE really don't mix well. Unless I have a real strong lvl 125 pet, I have no chance against stuff stronger than the common bandit. These tie to the interrupt chance, so that unless I'm on a mount, which is a heavy skill-point investment and can cause me to accidentally aggro or de-aggro mobs I don't wish to due to the no turning, I have very low chance of casting enough spells before dying to kill even one Risar for example.


Many people have told me that this is SV's way of discouraging players from playing as a solo mage. I do not understand why would they do this? There are no discouragement for any other playstyle in the game, you can play solo and farm risars with enough skill using any other weapon class, even as archer (as MA lol). So why is it that magic, which is often central to many games like this, is so left at the mercy of other players tanking for you (also pets are so unreliable and weak still which affects, but not every solo mage should require to be a tamer too).


This all comes down to mages not being able to BLOCK attacks, which makes them absorb every hit with no recourse, heals are so weak that even with the best armor in game you cannot even outheal a bandit (you will run out of mana anyways). The magic needs some way to use skill to also be able to mitigate attacks, I don't see why that is not possible, it would not make the game less realistic, as magic isn't real anyways, but it would make magic feel more skill-based rather than the lottery we have currently.


NOW THEN, if all this is intended by the devs, why is it that:


The PvE mages do not have to follow these (bs) rules? Any bandit casters or healers:


- Cannot be interrupted while casting,


- Their spells cannot be reflected or resisted


- Their spell damage seemingly goes through psyche completely (?)


- They cast at least twice the speed than the players do, they need no reagents to cast neither they ever run out of mana


- They also have auto-aim in their spells so they cannot miss no matter how much you would be jumping around (?)



So, if magery is in a good place like this, why do the PvE enemies who use it COMPLETELY IGNORE the restrictions and disadvantages that the players need to suffer??

To make matters worse, the game does not tell anywhere that this is the case, you learn only by testing that "hey, spell shield does not work on their fulmination even though it works on my fulmination, ha that is weird.."


Additionally, the game originally hooked me in by claiming that the PvE enemies (at least humanoids) use the same combat rules as the players do, I believe even seeing that if player mechanics would change, so would they. And that was a blatant LIE, which SV refuses to acknowledge or comment on (I've been asking in multiple streams, it's never been brought up by Henrik or anyone in Discord chat on their team).


SO why is it that the PvE mages need to CHEAT so that they are considered even a little threatening, while the player magic is "okay" like this? If it truly was okay then maybe bandit casters could also be randomly interrupted and would take 3 seconds to cast etc. As of now, a solo mage cannot cast even one spell against a bandit caster, as they spam so much that you are bound to get interrupted, how is this realistic gameplay?


And even with these cheats, many people consider the PvE casters to be the "easiest" enemies out of them, I think this should tell all of us something about the state of our two schools currently..


SOLUTIONS:


- Mages need to be able to do PvE on their own like every other class, in a game with just one character slot, most people are not gonna play mages if they always need a group to do anything. Moreover, magery lacks the skill, the only skill in magic is to somehow get all those spells into your spellbook, but you can also just buy them from others and use scribing services, so it's a timesink.


- Magic needs ideally a skill-based way of blocking attacks, so skilled mages can do PvE without getting deleted by a bandit.


- PvE magic users should follow the same rules as players as was promised by SV, and they still need to remain relevant enemies. The fact that this is a contradictory statement shows that magic is not where it should be.



5. Getting scrolls and scribing


This is a quick one, but the fact that this, admittedly jankiest mechanic in the game which relies on RNG the most and forces players to stop and wait without a skill-based interaction during this time, is also gatekeeped behind difficult bosses and random drops to even use, just makes matters a million times worse.


For ecumenical it's not so bad, as bandits drop most spells anyway, scribing is tough but at least you can buy it from players. For spiritism they need to change it similar to ecumenical in a sense that you can "try before you buy". It makes absolutely zero sense that the basic spell to test the spirit world mechanic is the most difficult to get, and you need heavy point investment to even use it properly.


SOLUTION:


Etherworld portal needs to become the first skill to learn, gatekeep something else behind difficult bosses so the mechanic can be explored by more people. (I know there is a thread here about this already).


And finally..


6. The reluctance of StarVault to comment on any of this



How is it possible to have a skill-based game which has a magic system like this? Why is it so weak against PvE, why cannot we use equipment to mitigate magic damage if we choose to? Why is MM so inconvenient to use? (horse gets stuck on rocks while casting etc.)


And most importantly, why does no one comment on this more than: the next school is gonna fix everything, and indicating that these mechanics are somehow fine and here to stay?


I rest my case.

 

[Najwalaylah]

Overall, I just cannot understand how they can think it is okay to add a mechanic into the game, which they acknowledge doesn't really work well, but it will be fine because they will some point later add something that will make it maybe worthwhile, without changing the problematic core mechanics first?

You had me at this.

I am still reading the rest.

 

[Tzone]

1. The logic of fixing magic later with more magic.

Ecumenical is very strong and I would think it needs a nerf actually. Unblockable, uncounterable, hitscan, high burst damage.

2. Random spell interruption chance in a skill-based game

You don't get interrupted if you don't get hit which should be your first plan. Concentration which is what always you to resist interruption is just icing on the cake.

PvE magic is just broken. Just because Mob mages have missing mechanics, doesnt mean that player mages should be have mechanics deleted.
SV just has not put dev time into the game inorder to get the mobs working properly. Doesnt mean they want the mobs to be broken.

Every mage can 100% block the attacks of melee. You can sit there forever blocking. Then break and disengage when you see a opening to start kiting. Once far enought away or when you use jump spots you can start to go back on the offensive.
You even have shield to wear on your backs which you can turn and look down to block attacks as well. As a mage you shouldn't need to block and will instead use jump spots and proper distancing to be out of range of melee threats.

 

[Velkynon]

Надо достучаться до уменьшения, сброса заклинания от атак ближнего боя добавлением заклинания щита, поглощающего количество потерь и добавляющего заклинания замедления движения. Не только
pve но и в pvp маг успевает произнести только одно заклинание и умирает от 2-3 ударов.

 

[Skydancer]

RNG interruption has always been flawed. It should be more like vanilla WoW where each hit delays your channel and if you are overwhelmed you just overcome it. Something predictable that you can develop tactics around and predict the outcome. Players will still be plenty able to interrupt you like that; especially in the longer casts.

AI not following the same rules as player's applies to all AI but is more noticeable on the casters. Infinite stam, ammo, also cannot get equipment hits that I've noticed, nor handle hits. AI might have difference balance than players in other games but at least they still use the same game rules and mechanics to function (mana and stamina/energy pools etc)

I think the idea of using psy as an interrupt resistance modifier is a really interesting idea since it's representative of your willpower and governs mental training, much like int governs the spell damage, giving it more value as an attribute.

Just one of the things that takes you out of the game when you engage in pve, just like rocket springboks that are inches from death but run as fast as usain bolt.

It is nice having a variety of combat styles on enemies at least.

Spiritism gatekeepers are indeed harsh and you'd hope that the point investment would be enough to limit the number of players who choose to use the magic, rather than the impossible entry requirements.

Another sidenote on AI in general - it was once claimed that whatever the humanoid AI were wearing they would drop - e.g bandits drop their loadouts just like players. Another empty statement here. rng loot table that doesnt even include carcass.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

I think the balance between melee ranged and magic is just flawed by design. I could write an essay about it but I doubt it will ever change so

 

[Dramonis]

1. The logic of fixing magic later with more magic.

This is basically saying one thing for me, if there is a release of an aggro magic school, it will be so gatekeeped that less than 0.01% will be able to get the skill. And magery will keep the worse option in the game.

2. Random spell interruption chance in a skill-based game
4. Magic in PvE

There is an obvious way to fix both problems at one time, magic looks like a mix of D&D and Moba games.

How to do that?

Allow pre-casted spells to stack, each usage of spell decreases the stack.
Example: 10 precast healing, the character used 6, the stack is lowered to 4 healing spells.

Each spell has a COOLDOWN time.
Example: 10 precast healing, used the fist cast, wait for 2 sec, use again.

More PSY bigger the Stack and how many spells he can stack, remove mage resistance from PSY
25 psy precast 2 spell | stack 2 50 psy precast 3 spell | stack 2 75 psy precast 4 spell | stack 3 100 psy precast 5 spell | stack 4 125 psy precast 6 spell | stack 5

Magic resistance should be tied up on materials not stats

This will force the mage to have a strategy and predict what can happen and wise use of mana and resources when going on an adventure.

 

[Dramonis]

Check this out bros.

@Sebastian Persson @Henrik Nyström

 

[Bogler]

This is basically saying one thing for me, if there is a release of an aggro magic school, it will be so gatekeeped that less than 0.01% will be able to get the skill. And magery will keep the worse option in the game.



There is an obvious way to fix both problems at one time, magic looks like a mix of D&D and Moba games.

How to do that?

Allow pre-casted spells to stack, each usage of spell decreases the stack.
Example: 10 precast healing, the character used 6, the stack is lowered to 4 healing spells.

Each spell has a COOLDOWN time.
Example: 10 precast healing, used the fist cast, wait for 2 sec, use again.

More PSY bigger the Stack and how many spells he can stack, remove mage resistance from PSY
25 psy precast 2 spell | stack 2 50 psy precast 3 spell | stack 2 75 psy precast 4 spell | stack 3 100 psy precast 5 spell | stack 4 125 psy precast 6 spell | stack 5

Magic resistance should be tied up on materials not stats

This will force the mage to have a strategy and predict what can happen and wise use of mana and resources when going on an adventure.

So with 125 psy I can stack 6 flamestrikes on a fatmage and just delete players left and right?

 

[Dramonis]

So with 125 psy I can stack 6 flamestrikes on a fatmage and just delete players left and right?

Hey! Troll, there will be a cooldown after the first cast, so the next spell will have to wait X seconds to cast again avoiding spam. The stack 5, not 6. It will be able to let 6 different spells on waiting, if you know how to read.

 

[Bogler]

Hey! Troll, there will be a cooldown after the first cast, so the next spell will have to wait X seconds to cast again avoiding spam. The stack 5, not 6. It will be able to let 6 different spells on waiting, if you know how to read.

So you could theoretically store flamestrike, fulminate, thunderlash, outburst, lightning. So you can burst someone down? Does each spell have unique cooldowns? Could I spam a outburst then a flamestrike in quick succession because the outburst has a lower cooldown than a spell after flamestrike? My point still stands, a fatmage on a horse could theoretically store 6 flamestrikes to just blow players up without having to straightline cast which makes them vulnerable. Getting 60-80 damage per hit.

I don't think you've thought this through and your hostile response solidifies it. Back to the drawing board sport.

 

[Tzone]

Magic and mage is already too strong.

 

[Oddysean]

My biggest issue is that a mounted archer can maneuver while on horseback while a mage cannot. I can not see any reason to this though. An archer can not shoot a bow with one hand so why can mages not turn ***or*** why can archers?

Also, I have heard that the goal is to prevent Hybrid builds from being the best in this game unlike MO1. That is unfortunately the way that it is going. Magic only has an action skill requirement to use and anyone can pick it up. Intelligence is the only thing that can really separate "mages" from everyone else.

Most spells scale off of Intelligence and that is fine. However since the curve has been normalized you penalize any "pure mage" build by making them comparable to a hybrid build. Spells like Magic Reflect and Mind Blast, that do not scale off intelligence only further promote hybrid builds.

I do think mages have a good utility role though.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Magic and mage is already too strong.

What mage hurt you?

 

[Tzone]

What mage hurt you?

I am a mage main. Im calling it how I see it. Mage is super strong.

 

[Doom and Gloom]

I am a mage main. Im calling it how I see it. Mage is super strong.

Independent of you opinion on whether it is strong or not, why not read the post and comment on the stuff I actually was talking about, which are RNG in mechanics which makes decisionmaking less relevant, and PvE magic and other design issues/potential for more interesting mechanics etc. It's not useful to anyone to just write "mage is too strong" without anything else.

 

[Tzone]

Independent of you opinion on whether it is strong or not, why not read the post and comment on the stuff I actually was talking about, which are RNG in mechanics which makes decisionmaking less relevant, and PvE magic and other design issues/potential for more interesting mechanics etc. It's not useful to anyone to just write "mage is too strong" without anything else.

I hate RNG mechs too but you should not be getting hit period and still being allowed to cast. At least above a certain amount of damage you should always be interupted instead of RNG at any damage.

You are asking to buff mage which instead needs a nerf.

 

[Dramonis]

So you could theoretically store flamestrike, fulminate, thunderlash, outburst, lightning. So you can burst someone down? Does each spell have unique cooldowns? Could I spam a outburst then a flamestrike in quick succession because the outburst has a lower cooldown than a spell after flamestrike? My point still stands, a fatmage on a horse could theoretically store 6 flamestrikes to just blow players up without having to straightline cast which makes them vulnerable. Getting 60-80 damage per hit.

I don't think you've thought this through and your hostile response solidifies it. Back to the drawing board sport.

Troll MA and melee with a bow is the meta, you are trying to justify not having to change your no-brainer build and deal with one more danger in-game... is ok I understand your necessity of easy mode. Mages are weak, is a time and gold sink that bring no benefits to the player, if the mage were OP as you say the server would be a Mounted Mage online, but instead, the game is Mounted Archer online.

well, you are giving 1 chance to the mage win 1 opponent. as stands right now mage is just a glittering punch bag that has no chance against MA or any foot, mage is only good against another mage, even PvE mage is dependent on others. most of the mage use light armor and is basically 1 hit and get 90-80 damage which is in most cases 40% of the life bar of most mage builds, mage get interrupted, is unable to defend while they cast. if is a 1v1 mage has no chance if don't run away or find a place unreachable to a plated warrior go up, basically PVP for a mage, or you cheese the game or you die, and even when you cheese it there is a great chance of getting hit by a bow and die

keep your fingers out of the keyboard and stop arguing bullshit, is clear even for devs that mage needs a buff, the thing is how to make a good buff?

 

[Bogler]

Troll MA and melee with a bow is the meta, you are trying to justify not having to change your no-brainer build and deal with one more danger in-game... is ok I understand your necessity of easy mode. Mages are weak, is a time and gold sink that bring no benefits to the player, if the mage were OP as you say the server would be a Mounted Mage online, but instead, the game is Mounted Archer online.

well, you are giving 1 chance to the mage win 1 opponent. as stands right now mage is just a glittering punch bag that has no chance against MA or any foot, mage is only good against another mage, even PvE mage is dependent on others. most of the mage use light armor and is basically 1 hit and get 90-80 damage which is in most cases 40% of the life bar of most mage builds, mage get interrupted, is unable to defend while they cast. if is a 1v1 mage has no chance if don't run away or find a place unreachable to a plated warrior go up, basically PVP for a mage, or you cheese the game or you die, and even when you cheese it there is a great chance of getting hit by a bow and die

keep your fingers out of the keyboard and stop arguing bullshit, is clear even for devs that mage needs a buff, the thing is how to make a good buff?

You inferred a lot when I was pointing out the errors in your proposed idea for making mages better. You don't seem like you are emotionally mature enough to have someone disagree with you. I don't even play MA I play a Hybrid/Paladin. I think mages need to be reworked into a direction that allows them to be more than a support class and move away from how they are currently only allowed to be offensive when terrain or large groups are protecting them. But having 5-6 saved casts is a horrendous idea and would absolutely change foot PvP forever with people just kiting melee to death with high damage spells and never being caught.