Magic in this game and its issues

[Doom and Gloom]

I hate RNG mechs too but you should not be getting hit period and still being allowed to cast. At least above a certain amount of damage you should always be interupted instead of RNG at any damage.

You are asking to buff mage which instead needs a nerf.

So we at least agree on no RNG, that is good starting point, but why do you think magic should be a class which cannot be used if you ever get surprised by someone, or try to fight PvE enemies? Do you think mages should always just be in groups behind the enemy lines or on a mount running away hoping no arrow hits them?

Large point of mine was the solo play: All other playstyles are allowed to PvE on their own, a mage cannot (or can with MM but that can cause mobs to de-aggro, aggro when not wanted because of the long movement in one direction, also it is still hardly skill-based, just very slow and tidious). In dungeons where you don't get a mount it is impossible though, while good melee players could technically deal with even more than one enemy at a time, mages can't do anything against even one.

Or are you trying to argue that this game has no space for pure mages, that all mages should be forced to learn a weapon class and switch to that when in melee?

Also, I am NOT asking a buff or a nerf to mages, I want the core mechanics to be changed so that they favour SKILL over RNG, and allow for skilled players to play mage as solo as well as in group. I don't want to play a healer, I want to be a mage and I like exploration on my own. I don't need to be able to kill everyone in PvP, but a solo mage has no chance against most PvE mobs even because you literally won't be able to cast. And your solution is to guarantee that you won't be able to cast?

Why would it make sense that mages would become useless in melee, that they couldn't do anything while every other class can?

I have suggested even a "nerf" which would be to allow armor to reduce magic damage, to compensate for this increased reliability that I'm looking for as a mage.

Why would it not be okay for a mage to be able to click the correct side while in the "cast mode" (so no weapon drawn) to be able to "magically parry" attacks when timed correctly, like you can do with melee? Henrik even talked about allowing bows to do this, why not magic?

Why is it good gameplay that mages either need to be far away and cast stuff which goes through armor (and "hitscans" idk what that means it is quite easy to miss tbh, or you mean that the projectiles travel instantly? I'm not opposed to changing this if it means the mechanics become more reliable otherwise) but when approached in melee they become toddlers who cannot do anything with magic?

I propose a system where both win, it will become more options for non-mages to reduce magic damage, I'm not opposed to even giving melee players options to react in the correct time to somehow mitigate magic damage if needed, but mages really need a way to parry to somehow survive the melee time, they need somehow visible interruption bar and more reliable way to cast while they are being hit, as it makes no sense that they will just continuously fizzle until they die, literally no game does this (afaik).

The 4 directional combat system is interesting, if working properly, I could definitely see magic benefitting from that too or something similar, rather than just the current system. I don't have all the answers, but it is plain to see that what we do have is awful for everyone.

 

[Dramonis]

You inferred a lot when I was pointing out the errors in your proposed idea for making mages better. You don't seem like you are emotionally mature enough to have someone disagree with you. I don't even play MA I play a Hybrid/Paladin. I think mages need to be reworked into a direction that allows them to be more than a support class and move away from how they are currently only allowed to be offensive when terrain or large groups are protecting them. But having 5-6 saved casts is a horrendous idea and would absolutely change foot PvP forever with people just kiting melee to death with high damage spells and never being caught.

Bro, READ what was posted instead of type Random , there is the cooldown, mana, reagents, casting time, interruption chance, and armor with magic defense.
So it will not be broken.

Mage will be the famous Glass Cannon and will give chance to survive a gank or PvE with freedom, wars things will be way more dynamic each side will try to kill and defend the mages, mages will have to choose who will cure, who will attack in summary it will make wars more interesting than now cuz ppl will have to more tools and ways to fight.

you are not disagreeing, you are just trolling cuz you didn't even read the post.

 

[Bogler]

Bro, READ what was posted instead of type Random , there is the cooldown, mana, reagents, casting time, interruption chance, and armor with magic defense.
So it will not be broken.

Mage will be the famous Glass Cannon and will give chance to survive a gank or PvE with freedom, wars things will be way more dynamic each side will try to kill and defend the mages, mages will have to choose who will cure, who will attack in summary it will make wars more interesting than now cuz ppl will have to more tools and ways to fight.

you are not disagreeing, you are just trolling cuz you didn't even read the post.

Your fruity text doesn't do you any favors. I've lined it out for you and you still don't want to respond to anything, you're repeating yourself.

None of this is going to get into game, go launch up RPG maker and make your dream game.

 

[Tzone]

So we at least agree on no RNG, that is good starting point, but why do you think magic should be a class which cannot be used if you ever get surprised by someone, or try to fight PvE enemies? Do you think mages should always just be in groups behind the enemy lines or on a mount running away hoping no arrow hits them?

Large point of mine was the solo play: All other playstyles are allowed to PvE on their own, a mage cannot (or can with MM but that can cause mobs to de-aggro, aggro when not wanted because of the long movement in one direction, also it is still hardly skill-based, just very slow and tidious). In dungeons where you don't get a mount it is impossible though, while good melee players could technically deal with even more than one enemy at a time, mages can't do anything against even one.

Or are you trying to argue that this game has no space for pure mages, that all mages should be forced to learn a weapon class and switch to that when in melee?

Also, I am NOT asking a buff or a nerf to mages, I want the core mechanics to be changed so that they favour SKILL over RNG, and allow for skilled players to play mage as solo as well as in group. I don't want to play a healer, I want to be a mage and I like exploration on my own. I don't need to be able to kill everyone in PvP, but a solo mage has no chance against most PvE mobs even because you literally won't be able to cast. And your solution is to guarantee that you won't be able to cast?

Why would it make sense that mages would become useless in melee, that they couldn't do anything while every other class can?

I have suggested even a "nerf" which would be to allow armor to reduce magic damage, to compensate for this increased reliability that I'm looking for as a mage.

Why would it not be okay for a mage to be able to click the correct side while in the "cast mode" (so no weapon drawn) to be able to "magically parry" attacks when timed correctly, like you can do with melee? Henrik even talked about allowing bows to do this, why not magic?

Why is it good gameplay that mages either need to be far away and cast stuff which goes through armor (and "hitscans" idk what that means it is quite easy to miss tbh, or you mean that the projectiles travel instantly? I'm not opposed to changing this if it means the mechanics become more reliable otherwise) but when approached in melee they become toddlers who cannot do anything with magic?

I propose a system where both win, it will become more options for non-mages to reduce magic damage, I'm not opposed to even giving melee players options to react in the correct time to somehow mitigate magic damage if needed, but mages really need a way to parry to somehow survive the melee time, they need somehow visible interruption bar and more reliable way to cast while they are being hit, as it makes no sense that they will just continuously fizzle until they die, literally no game does this (afaik).

The 4 directional combat system is interesting, if working properly, I could definitely see magic benefitting from that too or something similar, rather than just the current system. I don't have all the answers, but it is plain to see that what we do have is awful for everyone.

I kite people to death on mages, you can absolutely with as a mage. Even with out terrain. The best thing is once they commit to killing you but give up half way you are assured your win as they try to flee. The only issue I was having is killing good veela dex fighters or more then two people. I could kill 1 player and have some mana to spare but I would be struggling on the second. But they could never catch me. If it was 1v1 I would just parry the fighter as I stam up faster then them using veela stam regen clades, while proceeding to move to a place with rocks to slow down the fighter who would have his weapon out and could not immediately follow me.

Mage does not need buffs. Its already too strong with more magic schools coming that will just make it stronger.

 

[Atom]

1. The logic of fixing magic later with more magic.

Ecumenical is very strong and I would think it needs a nerf actually. Unblockable, uncounterable, hitscan, high burst damage.

2. Random spell interruption chance in a skill-based game

You don't get interrupted if you don't get hit which should be your first plan. Concentration which is what always you to resist interruption is just icing on the cake.

PvE magic is just broken. Just because Mob mages have missing mechanics, doesnt mean that player mages should be have mechanics deleted.
SV just has not put dev time into the game inorder to get the mobs working properly. Doesnt mean they want the mobs to be broken.

Every mage can 100% block the attacks of melee. You can sit there forever blocking. Then break and disengage when you see a opening to start kiting. Once far enought away or when you use jump spots you can start to go back on the offensive.
You even have shield to wear on your backs which you can turn and look down to block attacks as well. As a mage you shouldn't need to block and will instead use jump spots and proper distancing to be out of range of melee threats.

Concentration is RNG. It isn't just hits that can interrupt you. You can get nudged by players, horses and wildlife which also interrupt casting. Hitscan and powerful spells are useless because they are practically melee range spells. From when a target is in range to the completion of the cast is enough time for the opponent to close that gap. Spells with longer range are pitifully weak even to those with no resistance.

Being out of melee range really isn't the issue, is it? The fact is that anyone that isn't a mage (strength based) can use a bow effectively. Even to the point that a "melee" with 0 range skills can still put out more range damage from further away than a Mage's longest spell.

 

[Tzone]

Concentration is RNG. It isn't just hits that can interrupt you. You can get nudged by players, horses and wildlife which also interrupt casting. Hitscan and powerful spells are useless because they are practically melee range spells. From when a target is in range to the completion of the cast is enough time for the opponent to close that gap. Spells with longer range are pitifully weak even to those with no resistance.

Being out of melee range really isn't the issue, is it? The fact is that anyone that isn't a mage (strength based) can use a bow effectively. Even to the point that a "melee" with 0 range skills can still put out more range damage from further away than a Mage's longest spell.

You are just bad at the game. There is no melee range spell. Learn to kite properly. You have outburst that does 24-30 depending on your build to enemies. That's similar damage as a sword against armor except you are 40m away from the player you are hitting for at least 24. Dont even need tlashes when you have outburst. Never even dreamed about using a flame strike as a foot mage which is your lowest range spell. No reason to use it when you have tlash, outburst, and corrupt.

Learn to judge distances and speed of players before you come back to say ignorant things about mage. Thats what you need to work on if you are talking about getting hit by the enemies.

 

[AidanKyros]

I am of the opinion that magery in general has almost no creativity in it's design, we literally are playing one of the only MMO's that use directional combat and for some reason mages are unable to cast with weapons out nor are able to do any defensive gestures asides from healing themselves.

I'm not going to try to argue game design on magic schools, their purpose, flexibility, etc.. because it's all subjective to ideas whether each school has their niche or should be flexible enough for 3 different playstyles (def, utility, attack).

But what I do think is terrible design is how magic has no interactive ability with "weapons" or "armour" it is entirely based on what spells you know, what regs you have and your character build/stats vs other characters build/stats. IMO that is all poor game design.

I think a good example of martial classes VS spell casters is DND 5e, in general martial classes do consistent damage continuously while magery has a lot more impact and drop off followed by "cantrips" the weaker consistent damage choice in comparison to martial classes.
In MO we have a varied set of spells with different advantages/disadvantages and no "cantrips" IMO.

Out of what I think is missing in balance, we have opportunities here, why not give mages offensive magical weapons and have it cost mana/stamina to block/parry, why not give them "cantrip" functions that are weaker then regular magic, but maybe it's affected by the quality of weapon. Maybe spells we know today have no effect by the wand/staff because they are not general purpose magic like the wand/staff gives you.
There are a million ways to give magic users more depth and at least allow them to fight some regular mobs alone.

 

[Atom]

You are just bad at the game. There is no melee range spell. Learn to kite properly. You have outburst that does 24-30 depending on your build to enemies. That's similar damage as a sword against armor except you are 40m away from the player you are hitting for at least 24. Dont even need tlashes when you have outburst. Never even dreamed about using a flame strike as a foot mage which is your lowest range spell. No reason to use it when you have tlash, outburst, and corrupt.

Learn to judge distances and speed of players before you come back to say ignorant things about mage. Thats what you need to work on if you are talking about getting hit by the enemies.

You're just bad at talking to people. I might be able to improve my game. You're screwed. Condescending prick.

 

[Atom]

I kite people to death on mages, you can absolutely with as a mage. Even with out terrain. The best thing is once they commit to killing you but give up half way you are assured your win as they try to flee. The only issue I was having is killing good veela dex fighters or more then two people. I could kill 1 player and have some mana to spare but I would be struggling on the second. But they could never catch me. If it was 1v1 I would just parry the fighter as I stam up faster then them using veela stam regen clades, while proceeding to move to a place with rocks to slow down the fighter who would have his weapon out and could not immediately follow me.

Mage does not need buffs. Its already too strong with more magic schools coming that will just make it stronger.

The more I read this the more it sounds like you're running with a group and the "1v1" is just someone focussing you and you winning. Ignoring all the other factors in that situation.

I think you are talking out of your arse and I don't believe it. You can't kite an MA. Who are you actually kiting? Fat mages? 0 dex oghmir melee?

If you're not getting hit by arrows then you're either cheating or playing against guys that are using bodkin with a 20 str bow.

 

[Belegar]

The more I read this the more it sounds like you're running with a group and the "1v1" is just someone focussing you and you winning. Ignoring all the other factors in that situation.

I think you are talking out of your arse and I don't believe it. You can't kite an MA. Who are you actually kiting? Fat mages? 0 dex oghmir melee?

If you're not getting hit by arrows then you're either cheating or playing against guys that are using bodkin with a 20 str bow.

Save your breath and blood pressure. Tzone and Oneshot(?) are notorious anti-mages. One of them has repeatedly been proven wrong and toxic.

Focus on the more contributing comments.

 

[Hodo]

You're just bad at talking to people. I might be able to improve my game. You're screwed. Condescending prick.

You are just bad at the game. There is no melee range spell. Learn to kite properly. You have outburst that does 24-30 depending on your build to enemies. That's similar damage as a sword against armor except you are 40m away from the player you are hitting for at least 24. Dont even need tlashes when you have outburst. Never even dreamed about using a flame strike as a foot mage which is your lowest range spell. No reason to use it when you have tlash, outburst, and corrupt.

Learn to judge distances and speed of players before you come back to say ignorant things about mage. Thats what you need to work on if you are talking about getting hit by the enemies.

So here is the issue with magic, more or less ecu magic, and less with spiritism.

Yes outburst does 20-30 damage per hit, but takes 2 seconds to cast and has a range of 40m, which is less than 1/3rd the range of the average longbow or half the range of an asym bow or short bow. It also requires you to stand perfectly still and not get hit. Which if you are fighting the average fighter they are going to have archery trained just for this reason. They will pepper you with arrows the whole way in, or as you try to run away. You hit them for 25... they have 190hp... you did slightly more than 12% of their health, they hit you for 25, and your 170hp they did FAR more to you than you did to them. Now you have to choose bandage, which means you arent casting but you are moving, or stop and heal with a spell which means you arent offensive and they are closing the distance. They on the other hand can continue to run straight at you even sprint towards you while they are bandaging.

If they hit you with a longbow or asym bow you are looking at a 40-60pt hit which is easily 1/3rd of your hit points.... only making the situation worse.

Now the closer they get the more dangerous both of you become. Now you get access to Fulm, TLash, Flamestrike, and Corrupt.... but the first 3 all take 3 seconds to cast, which means that foot fighter who moves at 430 is going to cover the distance you had before you started to cast. Now youre getting smacked in the face for 70-90 and your spell hit for 60.. once... they continue to smack you for 70s.....

Magic is ok.. but right now all of the magic schools in game are support schools definitely not offensive or even really useful as a solo player with out a viable pet.

 

[Hodo]

You're just bad at talking to people. I might be able to improve my game. You're screwed. Condescending prick.

 

[Eskaldar]

Make it so that the channeling be interupted with a 100% chance on impact with sheild. That solve the problem with RNG and concentration.

 

[Atom]

Make it so that the channeling be interupted with a 100% chance on impact with sheild. That solve the problem with RNG and concentration.

Yeah, right. Isn't it enough that they have light armour, cast times and short range?
How about archery being subject to interrupts? Or melee?

 

[Doom and Gloom]

Make it so that the channeling be interupted with a 100% chance on impact with sheild. That solve the problem with RNG and concentration.

The more I listen to people like this, the more I wonder why this game has magic in the first place. Sounds like the "core" enjoys melee only, just remove magic and bows and problem solved, right?

Whatever SV does, don't leave them like this, please.

 

[Atom]

The more I listen to people like this, the more I wonder why this game has magic in the first place. Sounds like the "core" enjoys melee only, just remove magic and bows and problem solved, right?

Whatever SV does, don't leave them like this, please.

To be fair there are times when magic feels like it was implemented as an afterthought.

 

[KeiJiN]

I agree with OP the fixed 40% based interruption is quite wanky. Making psyche the based stat for interruption resistance would add depth into this stat. And of course add magic resistance to some armor materials would just be great.
I still don't understand why PvE ennemies don't have the same rules as player. They never hit your shield (i'm a S&S hybrid and that's a pain)...

 

[JunidO]

I hope they change magic, but fear that magic will be made even weaker because it's supposed to be overpowered in PvP and MO2 is PvP

But I'm afraid that the developers won't look into the forums and MO2 will always remain a melee or arc based game.

 

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