How the War Declaration System COULD work.

[Viknuss]

I've heard the system being released by Star Vault for War Declaration is not going to contain a Forced War Dec.
I hear two guilds will have to consensually agree to fight one another. I can tell you right now, this system will not
be used to it's capacity. There is a missed opportunity not including a forced war feature in Mortal Online 2.

First, we have to understand what a War Declaration, or Wardec, is.

**Two Guilds AGREE to go to War (currently) for the following:**

1. They become 'Orange' to one another. Only to one another. To everyone else, they are their perspective colors.

2. They can attack each other within city limits without becoming criminal.

3. They can loot one another without going criminal inside the city limits.

4. Guards will not defend them within the city limits. They will watch the slaughters happily.

5. They cannot murder count one another, or impact reputation in any way. You can be camped at a priest for hours.

6. You can essentially remove a guild from an NPC city. If you gain the upper hand, control the banks and priests, you remove a guilds ability to play within that city.

Why would another guild willingly accept this offer? This is one guilds declaration to destroy another guild. It is a necessary mechanic. Why would anyone agree to another
Guilds War Declaration?


**I think the system should work something more along these lines:**

Guilds should firstly have tiers based on number of members in the guild. ( I, II, III, IV, V )

Guilds should have to reach a certain tier before they gain the ability to Wardec at all.

Guilds should be able to force one Wardec on a guild with the same tier. I.E a Tier 5 guild can only force a Wardec on another Tier 5 guild.

Guilds should only be able to receive one forced Wardec. To keep the playing field level, A Tier 5 guild that has a Wardec forced on them, cannot take on another forced Wardec.

This would stop the larger guilds from picking on the smaller guilds with a mechanic that carries heavy implications such as "Free murder anywhere without repercussions"

Now you might say "But Viknuss, what's stopping the big guilds from making sub guilds just so they can attack and grief small guilds??"

To that I would say, more power to them. At least they would have around the same number of members in the sub guild to wage war on the smaller guild.


War isn't a mutual agreement. It's not some "Fair PvP let's all have a handshake and a good laugh when it's over". War in Mortal Online is supposed to be definitive.
One party vies to remove the other party from their position.
Take their city, destroy their assets, hunt them down wherever they can find them.
One guild destroying another guild.

Allowing guilds to hide behind the "option to decline" is not very cash money in a game like Mortal Online, where you are never truly safe.

 

[Teknique]

90000000000000000000000%

 

[Tzone]

Its only something I see for people doing scrims or team fights which you dont need this in the first place. Hearing that it was consensual war decs only was a very big let down. I would have not even put it on the road map. Its was basically one of the only things that might have made me reinstalled. There is not any other PvP content on the roadmap, and the PvE is boring.


Henrik did say that they will add non consensual stuff later with the goal of not making it greify. I don't have much hope in that it will be what we PvPer want out of a system.

Guild Wars

So SV has said that they want some GvG action but dont really want Guild Wars because how it was used to beat down smaller guilds. Guild wars is highly needed for this game, both for not going red I have a couple of suggestions for a system they will prevent larger guilds from bulling smaller...

mortalonline2.com

Here is my suggestion.

 

[LordMega]

"Excuse me sir, would you please like to go to war with me?" is such a dumb idea in the first place. Why bother with the mechanic at all if that's all that it amounts to?
A system like Viknuss has written up here would be much more interesting. One of the things that makes MO interesting is the guild politics, so having a nice system like this one would be good. Otherwise the Guild War system will just be a nonfactor.

 

[Piet]

I've heard the system being released by Star Vault for War Declaration is not going to contain a Forced War Dec.
I hear two guilds will have to consensually agree to fight one another. I can tell you right now, this system will not
be used to it's capacity. There is a missed opportunity not including a forced war feature in Mortal Online 2.

First, we have to understand what a War Declaration, or Wardec, is.

**Two Guilds AGREE to go to War (currently) for the following:**

1. They become 'Orange' to one another. Only to one another. To everyone else, they are their perspective colors.

2. They can attack each other within city limits without becoming criminal.

3. They can loot one another without going criminal inside the city limits.

4. Guards will not defend them within the city limits. They will watch the slaughters happily.

5. They cannot murder count one another, or impact reputation in any way. You can be camped at a priest for hours.

6. You can essentially remove a guild from an NPC city. If you gain the upper hand, control the banks and priests, you remove a guilds ability to play within that city.

Why would another guild willingly accept this offer? This is one guilds declaration to destroy another guild. It is a necessary mechanic. Why would anyone agree to another
Guilds War Declaration?


**I think the system should work something more along these lines:**

Guilds should firstly have tiers based on number of members in the guild. ( I, II, III, IV, V )

Guilds should have to reach a certain tier before they gain the ability to Wardec at all.

Guilds should be able to force one Wardec on a guild with the same tier. I.E a Tier 5 guild can only force a Wardec on another Tier 5 guild.

Guilds should only be able to receive one forced Wardec. To keep the playing field level, A Tier 5 guild that has a Wardec forced on them, cannot take on another forced Wardec.

This would stop the larger guilds from picking on the smaller guilds with a mechanic that carries heavy implications such as "Free murder anywhere without repercussions"

Now you might say "But Viknuss, what's stopping the big guilds from making sub guilds just so they can attack and grief small guilds??"

To that I would say, more power to them. At least they would have around the same number of members in the sub guild to wage war on the smaller guild.


War isn't a mutual agreement. It's not some "Fair PvP let's all have a handshake and a good laugh when it's over". War in Mortal Online is supposed to be definitive.
One party vies to remove the other party from their position.
Take their city, destroy their assets, hunt them down wherever they can find them.
One guild destroying another guild.

Allowing guilds to hide behind the "option to decline" is not very cash money in a game like Mortal Online, where you are never truly safe.

I whole heartedly agree. The only other option I could think of is let the small guilds get picked on and wardecked but fix the surrender mechanic so it's not useless and there's a cooldown of like a week or something before they can get wardecked again.

 

[Tzone]

I whole heartedly agree. The only other option I could think of is let the small guilds get picked on and wardecked but fix the surrender mechanic so it's not useless and there's a cooldown of like a week or something before they can get wardecked again.

Either they will war dec them selves with a alt guild to avoid getting war dec'd or people will make alt guilds to re dec them during the OG guilds cool down

 

[Jackdstripper]

Agree with Viknuss but i will ad that wardecs should cost money for the guild declaring it, and upkeep costs. The higher the tier of wardec the higher the cost. This would discourage guilds from always being in a continuous wardec, or just wardecking to greef.

having said that, i realize that guilds wiuld manipulate their tiers status in order to either, nullify a wardec brought on them, or to conveniently start a wardec right before a siege type thing.
This would have to be looked at as well.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

I was thinking also that the higher the guild tier, the more wardecs can be made by and against that guild.

So tiny tier I guilds cannot participate in wardecs, tier II can have at most one wardec, while tier V guilds that are essentially empire-level will be able to wage war on multiple fronts. Wardecs can only be made against another guild of the same tier, of course.

A guild that is currently in a wardec may hire mercenaries from a tier II or above guild by allowing them to temporarily fight under their banner for the duration of the wardec but does not give them any guild privileges unless specifically granted by the guild leadership.

This will allow smaller tier II or above guilds to take on contracts to act against their employer's enemies in open warfare, sabotage or assassination missions.

The rest I agree with Viknuss.

 

[Piet]

Either they will war dec them selves with a alt guild to avoid getting war dec'd or people will make alt guilds to re dec them during the OG guilds cool down

In MO1 you could have multiple guilds war dec although you're right on the alt guilds but then you could just surrender to those guilds to so meh. I like the tier system myself, the other suggestion was just another id heard tossed around that is also pretty solid.

 

[MolagAmur]

Hmm. Makes me wonder if later they plan to do the TC rules Herius asked for feedback on a long time ago before MO2 was announced.

Basically you make your own rules in the territory you own. You could claim a guild as enemy basically and they would become either grey or orange the moment they stepped into your territory.

The issue is you'd still need the forced wardecs if you plan to attack a guild outside of your territory.

Yeah idk. Obviously they have some plans for it. I dont think they'd just change the wardecs to be consensual without a bigger system to follow.

The tier idea isn't a bad one. I dont see why T1 couldn't declare on other T1s though. Also whats the member amount for tiers? Because that could also be abused. Lastly, say if T4 is 75 man and T5 is 100 man...that T4 should be able to force dec. Not a fan of zerg rats having protection over better guilds with smaller numbers simply because they are in a different tier.

 

[boogis]

Either they will war dec them selves with a alt guild to avoid getting war dec'd or people will make alt guilds to re dec them during the OG guilds cool down

fine, so they cannot have war ever and live in peace. let them do it. but the problem is that if there is only one war dec we will always be sticked to one enemy. and we dont even choose this right? if some one desided to do wardec on me then i must only have war with them. what if i want to do wardec on someone esle? can i do it? and if i can then i will have two wars going on, right? then what i want to do wardec on some one else? then it will be tree wars going on for me. so this way if everyone will use their chance to do a one wardec then it will be war everyone with every one.

i personally think there should free mechanics of war. so just let everyone has war with everyone. freely and forever.
we dont even need guild level in the sense of what been described. we need alliences. but gild lvl 5 cannont have any alliences, gild lvl 4 can have 2 alliences, guild 3 can have 5 allience guild lvl 2 can have 10 alliences and guild lvl 1 can have 15 alliences.
this way top guild never will be dominated over small guild cos small gild allience will destroy it. but why to have one guild lvl 5 if you can have small guild and join an allience??? you may ask. reason is that biggest guild have all power and resourses to itself but alliencee have to share it
PROBLEM SOLVED

 

[ROTLUST]

i really like the idea of forming alliances and sharing war decks this allows one to maintain guild autonomy. as for the tier system i do not think that will help small guilds in the long run people will just make proxy guilds which happened in mo1. perhaps the alliance system is the more likely solution.

 

[Zbuciorn]

i really like the idea of forming alliances and sharing war decks this allows one to maintain guild autonomy. as for the tier system i do not think that will help small guilds in the long run people will just make proxy guilds which append in mo1. perhaps the alliance system is the more likely solution.

We should have alliance system ASAP.It will be massive help for every guild leaders.It will make server politics more clear and easy to understand without following forum and discord gossips.

 

[cerqo]

The fact wardecs need to be "consensual" is a complete fucking joke lmao. And honestly it's a terrible choice by SV if they actually end up sticking with it. I would not be surprised tho seeing how a lot of the recent changes literally cuck PvP and are made to save the noobs from getting farmed. But in reality, all it does is just extend the grace period before the noobs eventually DO get griefed. It's just moving forward the inevitable.

I mean, you make a super hardcore full loot first person MMO. You market it as super hardcore. Then you proceed to add the most carebear shit mechanics that belong in Amazon themepark MMOs.

One obvious loophole in the proposed system is guilds just making a second sub guilds and wardeccing themselves just so they cant be wardecced.

I could have probably put my point across more gently but blunt is probably better than beating around the bush. I don't look past the fact that this game is already far better than MO1 was (except from the zerg friendliness) and its heading in a decent direction.

 

[Anabolic Man]

I've heard the system being released by Star Vault for War Declaration is not going to contain a Forced War Dec.
I hear two guilds will have to consensually agree to fight one another. I can tell you right now, this system will not
be used to it's capacity. There is a missed opportunity not including a forced war feature in Mortal Online 2.

First, we have to understand what a War Declaration, or Wardec, is.

**Two Guilds AGREE to go to War (currently) for the following:**

1. They become 'Orange' to one another. Only to one another. To everyone else, they are their perspective colors.

2. They can attack each other within city limits without becoming criminal.

3. They can loot one another without going criminal inside the city limits.

4. Guards will not defend them within the city limits. They will watch the slaughters happily.

5. They cannot murder count one another, or impact reputation in any way. You can be camped at a priest for hours.

6. You can essentially remove a guild from an NPC city. If you gain the upper hand, control the banks and priests, you remove a guilds ability to play within that city.

Why would another guild willingly accept this offer? This is one guilds declaration to destroy another guild. It is a necessary mechanic. Why would anyone agree to another
Guilds War Declaration?


**I think the system should work something more along these lines:**

Guilds should firstly have tiers based on number of members in the guild. ( I, II, III, IV, V )

Guilds should have to reach a certain tier before they gain the ability to Wardec at all.

Guilds should be able to force one Wardec on a guild with the same tier. I.E a Tier 5 guild can only force a Wardec on another Tier 5 guild.

Guilds should only be able to receive one forced Wardec. To keep the playing field level, A Tier 5 guild that has a Wardec forced on them, cannot take on another forced Wardec.

This would stop the larger guilds from picking on the smaller guilds with a mechanic that carries heavy implications such as "Free murder anywhere without repercussions"

Now you might say "But Viknuss, what's stopping the big guilds from making sub guilds just so they can attack and grief small guilds??"

To that I would say, more power to them. At least they would have around the same number of members in the sub guild to wage war on the smaller guild.


War isn't a mutual agreement. It's not some "Fair PvP let's all have a handshake and a good laugh when it's over". War in Mortal Online is supposed to be definitive.
One party vies to remove the other party from their position.
Take their city, destroy their assets, hunt them down wherever they can find them.
One guild destroying another guild.

Allowing guilds to hide behind the "option to decline" is not very cash money in a game like Mortal Online, where you are never truly safe.

Wasn´t this the way wartags worked in MO1 ?


Ideas to improve the Wartag system.

Smaller Guilds should be able to wartag bigger Guilds without they getting a Massage,
in which they are asked whether they want to accept the war.

Bigger Guilds should be able to wartag a smaller Guild, but in this case they
should be asked whether they would like to accept the war.

It should take at least 8 hours before the declaration of war becomes active and every Guild Member should get a Massage !
The Guild XYZ have decided that the Guild xyz have ... hours to leave the town, before we will take it by force.

A small guild with less then 10 Members should be able to declare war on as many large guilds as they want. There shouldn't be a cap.

It would be bad for the game, if large PVP guilds could declare war on the smaller PVE and Roleplayer Guilds and if the war would become active immediatly. The same Rule should apply for blacklisting a Player but the TIme should be much shorter. The blacklisted Player should have 20 Minutes time to be able to trade his Stuff to a friend or put it in the Broker and sell it.

I think that the possibility of blacklisting individual griefers is
is completely sufficient. We not need to be able to Wartag small Guilds in a way it was possible in MO1 and i think that would harm the game.


Now to the much bigger propblem how to fix the Flagging system !


Viknus recommendation is not fixing the flagging system problem. We need a new color for the flagging system and i want to explain why. It could also be a hidden color ! That doesn´t matter.

The Problem is that your Character turn red after a huge battle. I have over 50 Murdercounts and i did not PK anyone. Just from the Stresstest Battles and defending the new Players from town attacks. It is bad if the largest PVP Guilds that are owning a Keep can give Murdercounts to each other.

Either the game would have to recognize when a huge fight is taking place, so that no player can give murder counts, but this would be too hard to program and implement to the game. That´s why we need a new colour for the flagging system. It could also be a new hidden colour. Murderers are not highlighted in red but are hidden red. Same could apply for this new purple colour. There should be a difference between the orange and purple colour. Orange players can be attacked in towns and purple players should not be able to get attacked in towns.
Neither orange players nor purple players should be able to give each other murder counts.

All Guilds owning a Keep should be in war with each other and flagged hidden purple to each other. That means that they can´t give Murdercounts to each other.

Another possibility would be if the guild that occupies a city could deactivate the option to give murder counts for specific Guilds and specific Players in their owned region.

The current system punish Players that will only play on 1 Account. I defend our Town from PKS and try to roleplay the good guy defending the new Palyers and get a murderer for killing the attackers.
I am treated as a murderer from the Guards instead of being celebrated as a hero in the city. Ingratitude is an honorary citizen's reward. Just like in real life.

I don´t want to be punished for a non toxic behavior, becuase i defended our town.

It is bad for the game if every PVP Player turn red.

Red players that can never get blue again tend to kill everyone. We need a hard punishment for red players and many mechanics to prevent getting Murdercounts.



An optional Faction System like the Chaos Order System in Ultima Online and the above mentioned ideo of guilds being in war with each other are good ways to avoid murdercounts. It is bad for the game if every Player that participate in big big fights get red after the battle and maybe never get blue again. Red Players that can´t get blue again tent to kill everyone. Even Players not interestedf in PVP.


I think we should be able to kill everyone we want, but we need a hard punishment for murderers but we need those above mentioned ways to avoid murdercounts before release !


Any player from a different faction should be flagged orange.
Behind the Player Name of a factionmember, the name of the respective faction should be shown in brackets.
Here's an example
Players who belong to a guild who own a keep should be shown purple to other guilds who own a keep [Koto] General Buttnaked (Tindremic Faction) and their names should be shown in orange color to the Members of a different Faction which should work like the Chaos Order System in UO. [Koto] General Buttnaked (Tindremic Faction)

 

[Rorry]

Everyone is grey outside of towns, easy fix.

 

[Anabolic Man]

Everyone is grey outside of towns, easy fix.

that would be no fix becuase the ne players without a guildtag would get slaughtered.

 

[Rorry]

that would be no fix becuase the ne players without a guildtag would get slaughtered.

They already do, and no flagging system will stop it. It would let town defenders defend without accruing murder counts, though.

 

[Najwalaylah]

Henrik did say that they will add non consensual stuff later with the goal of not making it greify.

Why should you all, and Henrik, wait instead of taking @Viknuss ' suggestion to begin with? I don't understand how Star Vault thinks that mutual consent will work.

• You know, Vik's advice for Tiers would have the side effect of making some guilds try harder to be the first big guild-- so that they'd be ready to decalre war on the second big guild. That seems like a plus.

It would let town defenders defend without accruing murder counts, though.

(Maybe people shouldn't have in-game guilds to join, just towns & cities to belong to... but that's a different game.)

 

[Erwinicus]

The suggested system would be easy to circumvent. All you need is a friendly guild to wardec you and then none of your enemies can force wardec on you.