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Hodo

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So you're going to use real world comparisons to justify 1 metal being useless, but never use real world comparisons for any other metals? That's inconsistent, we should at least continue the analogy if we're going to do that...

obligatory: Of course, we can't really use real world comparisons because technically this is just a game and it doesn't apply here.

BUT, if we did:
Why is bron useless? Bronze is a highly capable metal and better than Cuprum (copper) from which it is made in EVERY SINGLE WAY. Bron should be comparable to Steel in durability(maybe higher if you consider bronze doesn't rust, early iron/steel does terribly)& slash/pierce with higher blunt dmg & weight. In the early iron age, bronze was not moved away from because iron was better than bronze(that is a popular historical myth) at that stage, it was because civilizations were having a harder and harder time to source tin with the breakdown of major trade-networks following the Bronze Age collapse. We only ever get widespread steel that is superior to bronze (there were some areas that had pockets of highly skilled iron workers making much more advanced iron, but it was a niche skill & never took off for many reasons) much much later, which we could say is comparable to tung-steel.

If we were going by real world comparisons, bleck(tin) & cuprum(copper) & pig iron (wrought-iron) should be the only (mostly) useless metals (cuprum should be the best of the 3 of course, and should be better at least comparable to ANYTHING made of organic material/stone/bone etc) . Everything else should be within a couple points of each other, with some variation in weight/dura.


Again, I don't think any of this as relevant because this is a game-- but, I'm just saying, if we're going with real world comparisons the inconsistencies are no less jarring.

When you're looking at blunt weapons or mass based weapons, you want heavy and ideally hard. So Copper actually makes a pretty solid (no pun intended) mace head material. Bronze is slightly better because it is harder. But then there is Messing which is close to brass, again harder than bronze but lighter so it is a trade off.

Then you have steel, which is a mild steel, tends to rust and doesnt keep an edge very well. Tungsteel which is a high carbon steel, be it damascas steel, a harder steel better in many ways over mild steel. Then you have Cronite which is stainless steel or a spring steel. And lastly oghmium which I believe is completely mythical... but could be closer to a super stainless steel, which is a real thing.


But realism went out the window when we can make a full suit of armor out of teeth....
 
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Kaquenqos

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When you're looking at blunt weapons or mass based weapons, you want heavy and ideally hard. So Copper actually makes a pretty solid (no pun intended) mace head material. Bronze is slightly better because it is harder. But then there is Messing which is close to brass, again harder than bronze but lighter so it is a trade off.

Then you have steel, which is a mild steel, tends to rust and doesnt keep an edge very well. Tungsteel which is a high carbon steel, be it damascas steel, a harder steel better in many ways over mild steel. Then you have Cronite which is stainless steel or a spring steel. And lastly oghmium which I believe is completely mythical... but could be closer to a super stainless steel, which is a real thing.


But realism went out the window when we can make a full suit of armor out of teeth....

Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at.

Why are so many organic materials that are easy to hunt & butcher better than metals which take skill point investment & much longer time-investment to get? Why are waste-products (flake/jadeite) better than many of the metals that you are ultimately crushing ore to smelt in the first place?

It neither makes sense from a common sense/historical outlook, nor from a gameplay outlook. Why did low tier metals get the shaft so hard? They still take much longer to get, and they are metal so should be sharper than stone...
 
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Hodo

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Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at.

Why are so many organic materials that are easy to hunt better than metals which take skill point investment & much longer time-sink to get? Why are waste-products (flake/jadeite) better than many of the metals that you are ultimately crushing ore to smelt in the first place?

It neither makes sense from a common sense/historical outlook, nor from a gameplay outlook.

I mean yes, you're right. But there were historical resources of humans making weapons out of animal materials... I mean the native New Zealanders used weapons made of wood, and sharp onyx rocks or sharks teeth. Some African tribes used Elephant tusks that were shaved down into pick-axe style weapons.

There is even a dagger from the Mughals that was made from the tooth of a VERY large tiger.
 
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Kaquenqos

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I mean yes, you're right. But there were historical resources of humans making weapons out of animal materials... I mean the native New Zealanders used weapons made of wood, and sharp onyx rocks or sharks teeth. Some African tribes used Elephant tusks that were shaved down into pick-axe style weapons.

There is even a dagger from the Mughals that was made from the tooth of a VERY large tiger.

Certainly organic tools and weapons were the mainstay in human populations for hundreds of thousands (maybe even millions of years if you consider all 'homo' species as 'human') of years, and in some remote areas continue to be used to great effect...

But that doesn't mean they are functionally better than the specialized metals that, in real life as well, took a greater deal of logistics and much longer in terms of overall human labor to make. Quite the opposite, metals were superior in almost every single way. Why shouldn't it be so in MO2?

Maybe it is too much to ask to reflect the difficulty & expertise of skill required to make functional stone & bone weaponry, but at least the functionality should be reflected compared to metals. As it is you can just spam out high end organic weapons & armor that are better than all but the higher tier metals.

Another thing, you should not be able to make plate armors that include cuirasses out of bone... Lamellar & scale should be the high point for bone armors... Anyway, that's another matter.

But anyway, basically what I'm saying here is that in MO2:

steel>jadeite>cuprum>grain-steel>messing>bron

when it should really be

steel>bron>messing=grain-steel>cuprum>jadeite
 
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Hodo

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Certainly organic tools and weapons were the mainstay in human populations for hundreds of thousands (maybe even millions of years if you consider all 'homo' species as 'human') of years, and in some remote areas continue to be used to great effect...

But that doesn't mean they are functionally better than the specialized metals that, in real life as well, took a greater deal of logistics and much longer in terms of overall human labor to make. Quite the opposite, metals were superior in almost every single way. Why shouldn't it be so in MO2?

Maybe it is too much to ask to reflect the difficulty & expertise of skill required to make functional stone & bone weaponry, but at least the functionality should be reflected compared to metals. As it is you can just spam out high end organic weapons & armor that are better than all but the higher tier metals.

Another thing, you should not be able to make plate armors that include cuirasses out of bone... Lamellar & scale should be the high point for bone armors... Anyway, that's another matter.

But anyway, basically what I'm saying here is that in MO2:

steel>jadeite>cuprum>grain-steel>messing>bron

when it should really be

steel>bron>messing=grain-steel>cuprum>jadeite

I agree it is a bit out of whack but... I mean we also have 4ft tall Alvarins that can wear 54lbs of armor and out run their brothers who are butt naked.
 

Kaquenqos

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I agree it is a bit out of whack but... I mean we also have 4ft tall Alvarins that can wear 54lbs of armor and out run their brothers who are butt naked.
Yeah I'm definitely not saying it's something that should be priority versus other things that need work. I just find it a curious design choice.

I don't see why bron is so gimped for slashing, while jadeite (again, a waste product) is close to steel. Meanwhile, as a consequence of bron's near uselessness, bleck is completely useless.

Just strange to have a t2 alloy that takes 2 metals to make have only 1 use, as a blunt weapon mat.
 
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Midkemma

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MO feels like we just put the animal part in the end item. It doesn't really look at processing the animal material outside of butchery.
Leather armour from a fresh kill and no tanning etc? Just throw the skin together and ping... a magically cured pair of leather boots or what-ever.
Same for teeth. Making a 2H sword blade from teeth seems a bit odd unless we think about some magical unseen process to shape and cure the material.

Metal has the refining which matters.

Maybe... Animal materials need refining after butchery?
 
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Kaquenqos

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MO feels like we just put the animal part in the end item. It doesn't really look at processing the animal material outside of butchery.
Leather armour from a fresh kill and no tanning etc? Just throw the skin together and ping... a magically cured pair of leather boots or what-ever.
Same for teeth. Making a 2H sword blade from teeth seems a bit odd unless we think about some magical unseen process to shape and cure the material.

Metal has the refining which matters.

Maybe... Animal materials need refining after butchery?

Yeah, but I mean, making a functional 3+ft blade out of teeth or even stone is never going to make sense. If you did get a slab of stone that big, it would shatter.
Same with bone plate. You aren't going to be able to make a cuirass out of bones, for example. Lamellar? Scale? Sure, to some extent it's possible. An actual solid cuirass? No...

I feel like some refining after butchery + further limitations on what you can actually craft with organic (ie. non-metal) material would make the most sense.

Like, maybe keep organic stuff where it's at but limit what you can actually make with it. Certain stuff should require metal. This would be more immersive & would make organic material a bit less OP. Refining organic material would help too.

It takes fucking ages to make a stone axe !

Adding extra crafting recipes that are specific to organic materials would probably be ideal. Like, specific armor sets that use bone, stone, etc. and look the part instead of literal full on late medieval suits of plate conceivably/magically being made out of ground up teeth or some shit lol...

Not something I think should be priority, more of a pet-peeve along w/ the metal situation.

Hell, I know there's a lot that needs to be done in this area for medium & light weight armors too, so again, not saying it's something that needs attention asap, just 'in a perfect world' kind of deal.
 
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Midkemma

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@Kaquenqos
I know this isn't Skyrim how-ever I do like the appearance of the forsworn swords (teeth like sword that could act like a saw) and their explanation of bonemold (bone plate) armour.

I enjoy a series of books where they explain how a civilisation processed materials like hide and wood to create items which were comparable to steel, they developed that knowledge as metal was scarce for them yet war was a favourite past-time.

I do like some good lore 😁
 
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Melkhia

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Yeah, but I mean, making a functional 3+ft blade out of teeth or even stone is never going to make sense. If you did get a slab of stone that big, it would shatter.
Same with bone plate. You aren't going to be able to make a cuirass out of bones, for example. Lamellar? Scale? Sure, to some extent it's possible. An actual solid cuirass? No...

I feel like some refining after butchery + further limitations on what you can actually craft with organic (ie. non-metal) material would make the most sense.

Like, maybe keep organic stuff where it's at but limit what you can actually make with it. Certain stuff should require metal. This would be more immersive & would make organic material a bit less OP. Refining organic material would help too.

It takes fucking ages to make a stone axe !

Adding extra crafting recipes that are specific to organic materials would probably be ideal. Like, specific armor sets that use bone, stone, etc. and look the part instead of literal full on late medieval suits of plate conceivably/magically being made out of ground up teeth or some shit lol...

Not something I think should be priority, more of a pet-peeve along w/ the metal situation.

Hell, I know there's a lot that needs to be done in this area for medium & light weight armors too, so again, not saying it's something that needs attention asap, just 'in a perfect world' kind of deal.

"Adding extra crafting recipes that are specific to organic materials would probably be ideal. "

I mean, I feel necromancer crafting could have been a great time to include some further modifications in regard of the animal materials and butchery refining and to introduce the change in other crafting field.
The skills to cut some body part in a better/cleaner way to improve necro-crafting durability n stuff
For weapons, Teeth could be grind to make some compound instead of using it raw, etc.
 

Skydancer

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MO feels like we just put the animal part in the end item. It doesn't really look at processing the animal material outside of butchery.
Leather armour from a fresh kill and no tanning etc? Just throw the skin together and ping... a magically cured pair of leather boots or what-ever.
Same for teeth. Making a 2H sword blade from teeth seems a bit odd unless we think about some magical unseen process to shape and cure the material.

Metal has the refining which matters.

Maybe... Animal materials need refining after butchery?

Always said this. Theres allt he arguments in the world that casting animal material weapons and armors is pretty fantasty and I accept that.

The issue is that there is no additional extraction and refining steps for animal materials. Alchemy and cooking have additional extraction tiers and so do metals. There's dozens of good examples of how animal mats should be the same way with different appliances, combinations and catalysts. WOuld make animal mats less lazy and uninspired, my signature word phrase.

in terms of the bone/tooth stuff; you could easily put some rationale around grinding those materials down into a powder/meal and then refining it into a polymer which could be moulded and then hardened and sharpened for casted armors and weapons but again, why bother trying to make an equivalently complex and deep system for animal mats as metals have?
 
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Kaquenqos

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"Adding extra crafting recipes that are specific to organic materials would probably be ideal. "

I mean, I feel necromancer crafting could have been a great time to include some further modifications in regard of the animal materials and butchery refining and to introduce the change in other crafting field.
The skills to cut some body part in a better/cleaner way to improve necro-crafting durability n stuff
For weapons, Teeth could be grind to make some compound instead of using it raw, etc.
Yeah, if you had that extra refining step to make it into some kind of composite compound & needed some kind of adhesive as flux to make it, that'd make sense.

I should clarify, ultimately I don't mind that you can get decent gear without having to spend tons of money or be in a big guild that has constant access to advanced metals-- I guess my main issue is just that so many metals seem pointless.

I definitely don't want to seem like I'm advocating making the disparity between easier to get mats & the hardest to get mats even bigger, in fact I wouldn't mind that disparity to be a bit lower all around. I guess my main issue is that it seems like as far as metal goes it's like, "everything else>steel>tungsteel/fantasy metals", when metals like bron & messing would be a perfect 'in between' for casual players that take refining. But instead it's kind of like, you gotta go for steel or you get nothing.

If you buff bron & messing up to be nearly comparable(but still lesser) to steel, there is now a 'middle zone' between organic mats & steel+. Like, why should organic materials that you can hunt quickly & don't have to refine in any way be better or pretty much the same quality as these metals that take tons of skillpoint, grind, refine, etc. time to make...

So, in a perfect world, I'd just like to see bron & messing be better than animal mats but worse than steel, I guess haha... Because atm you're kind of crazy not to just go with cheap organic mats unless you can do steel or better.

Midkemma said:
@Kaquenqos
I know this isn't Skyrim how-ever I do like the appearance of the forsworn swords (teeth like sword that could act like a saw) and their explanation of bonemold (bone plate) armour.

I enjoy a series of books where they explain how a civilisation processed materials like hide and wood to create items which were comparable to steel, they developed that knowledge as metal was scarce for them yet war was a favourite past-time.

I do like some good lore 😁

Honestly, I have no issue with it how it is really-- after all this is just a game and features magic, you can come up with a lot of different explanations if you wanted to. My main issue is what it means for gameplay/trade mechanics. There is no in between from organic mats to steel when bron & messing are such obvious candidates to fill that position... Instead, for some reason, they deliberately made them next to useless in the case of bron, and mostly useless in the case of messing. So, basically, you can get cheap organic mats that cost next to nothing or you can grind for hours and get something that in many instances is inferior (bron messing)... until you get to steel. : T


I think more recipes overall would be cool long-term anyway. Maybe certain recipes that you need specific mats for... like say a recipe for weapons & armor out of bron that don't suck nuggets...! Maybe in the style of some cool bronze age continental europe la tene bell-cuirasses, muscle-cuirasses, & naue II type swords axes etc : )
 
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Hodo

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Yeah I'm definitely not saying it's something that should be priority versus other things that need work. I just find it a curious design choice.

I don't see why bron is so gimped for slashing, while jadeite (again, a waste product) is close to steel. Meanwhile, as a consequence of bron's near uselessness, bleck is completely useless.

Just strange to have a t2 alloy that takes 2 metals to make have only 1 use, as a blunt weapon mat.

The difference there lies in the durability and weight. I will go with your Jadeite vs bron for comparison. Jadeite has about 2/3 maybe 3/4 of the durability of Bron. But there is a reason why bronze age swords were quickly replaced by iron and later steel. Even the Maori people of New Zealand used Onyx and shark teeth for weapons in their history, but as soon as steel was introduced they switched to it because it was better. Yes Jadeite is cheap and easy to get, but doesnt mean you want to use it for every weapon or every tool. If you do a lot of PVE farming or dont die every fight in PVP you tend to want your weapons to do the same damage in prolonged situations. I often use Bron clubs for that reason, it is cheap and it has REALLY good durability for that tool. Same reason why you see copper and brass hammers in tools to this very day.


Even in reality sometimes harder to make doesnt mean better. Brass is not better than bronze for some applications... Steel isnt better than aluminum in other situations. Right material for the right job.
 
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Midkemma

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There is no in between from organic mats to steel when bron & messing are such obvious candidates to fill that position.


In MO1 we had messing mauls which were alright at bringing down TC Towers.
MO2 isn't fully made... To be fair to us players when chatting in the forums, neither was MO1 ;) lol
Messing and Tind Messing were the go to mats for blunt weaps. I have read how blunt weaps appear weak but that is more to do with weapon balance IMO. Oh and refining Messing was one of the better ways to cap out refining due to the relative cheapness, don't want to be throwing away better mats XD lol

I never really used Bron. I used Bleck for cheap building material and Cuprum was sold either in mage volume on broker (higher profit for a trader) or turned into messing because those mauls sold a LOT... TC Towers was one part but those walls did encourage group sales :p



I often use Bron clubs for that reason, it is cheap and it has REALLY good durability for that tool. Same reason why you see copper and brass hammers in tools to this very day.

What are Bron pickaxes like compared to vendor?
From what I remember... It wasn't worth it.
 

Hodo

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What are Bron pickaxes like compared to vendor?
From what I remember... It wasn't worth it.


An incisium torch handle bron pickaxe with max skills has 333 durability almost 334. The vendor one I believe has 250. So it is worth it if you're mining or chopping wood.
 
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Midkemma

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An incisium torch handle bron pickaxe with max skills has 333 durability almost 334. The vendor one I believe has 250. So it is worth it if you're mining or chopping wood.

Hmm, I see what you mean, but personally, I would sell the cuprum that it took to make the bron and just take a few extra vendor picks.
Mining kinda requires a mule and then the weight of a few extra picks isn't an issue.
 

Hodo

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Hmm, I see what you mean, but personally, I would sell the cuprum that it took to make the bron and just take a few extra vendor picks.
Mining kinda requires a mule and then the weight of a few extra picks isn't an issue.

Its an odd balance. The cost of making bron picks isnt really worth it, but steel maybe worth it. A steel pickaxe goes over 470 durability and the weight is only 1.5.
 

Midkemma

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Its an odd balance. The cost of making bron picks isnt really worth it, but steel maybe worth it. A steel pickaxe goes over 470 durability and the weight is only 1.5.

I rerolled a few times and never really got to making tools. I was intending to go into armours and got my spreadsheets all ready in preparation for being a trader and that's it really...
Interesting to hear that you think Steel might be worth it in tools. As a ex-trader I find it hard to see past potential lost profit 😂 but with plentiful supplies and no need for gold then I can see how perspective changes.
 

Kaquenqos

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The difference there lies in the durability and weight. I will go with your Jadeite vs bron for comparison. Jadeite has about 2/3 maybe 3/4 of the durability of Bron. But there is a reason why bronze age swords were quickly replaced by iron and later steel. Even the Maori people of New Zealand used Onyx and shark teeth for weapons in their history, but as soon as steel was introduced they switched to it because it was better. Yes Jadeite is cheap and easy to get, but doesnt mean you want to use it for every weapon or every tool. If you do a lot of PVE farming or dont die every fight in PVP you tend to want your weapons to do the same damage in prolonged situations. I often use Bron clubs for that reason, it is cheap and it has REALLY good durability for that tool. Same reason why you see copper and brass hammers in tools to this very day.


Even in reality sometimes harder to make doesnt mean better. Brass is not better than bronze for some applications... Steel isnt better than aluminum in other situations. Right material for the right job.

Yeah, I mean, I understand all of that, my point is more from a gameplay perspective it would be nice if it was organic-mats>t2 metals>t3+metals, due to the difficulty & time sink of actually making t2 metals.

Anyway, it's a game so real life comparisons are not that applicable and are just for fun, but you can't be telling me that obsidian holds an edge better & is better for arms and armor than masterwork bronze or copper alloy/brass? Because that's just not true.

As far as 'bronze age swords quickly replaced by iron', that's actually a common misconception. People have studied this extensively, and masterfully made bronze arms are actually marginally superior to early iron weapons until you get widespread bloom furnaces & steel into the medieval period (which we might compare to steel, or, in its later & higher quality period tungsteel). The reason iron was actually adopted was due to trade-networks/logistics; you could easily outfit a large army in iron vs. having to find rarer tin to make bronze from copper. When the late bronze age collapse occurred, bronze age copper & tin trade-networks dried up fairly universally.
You get a lot of people who are not master bronzeworkers like bronze age smiths making shitty bronze weapons and then using fairly good modern iron & techniques and surmising that iron is 100% superior to bronze right out of the gate. In actuality, historians of the period are pretty unified on their view that early iron age arms & armor made of bronze were superior in functionality to early iron age arms and armor made of iron. It wasn't just 'fashion' that Ancient Greeks, and even the Romans(just to name a couple), continued to work with bronze long after iron-working had become commonplace.

Basically, bronze gets shit on a lot because it takes a lot of artisanal skill to work it properly, and most armaments made from it today are not made by master bronzeworkers(which makes sense, since we have relatively easy access to high quality steel, and so most people specialize in working it instead). High quality bronze tipped spears, for example, can even puncture sheets of iron (and there is proof of this on youtube). People wouldn't have kept using it if it didn't do a fine job.

Again, none of this really matters, since this is ultimately a fantasy game and not a simulation of the real world... But to continue the comparison for the fun of it, cuprum is superior to bron in the game. There is absolutely no argument for copper being superior or even comparable to bronze in any kind of arm or armor. Bronze is copper's big brother, and is superior in every way.

With all of that said, I'd even take having cuprum get a mild nerf if Bron could get a big buff and bring it up to just below steel. I think it would be a good gameplay change, even aside from the real world comparisons, which are just for fun. I don't think bron getting buffed up to, say, between jadeite and steel, would be a negative change in any way gameplay wise... Why does t2 have to be relegated to purely niche roles? What exactly does this add to the experience, beyond making refining a slog?
 
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Hodo

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Yeah, I mean, I understand all of that, my point is more from a gameplay perspective it would be nice if it was organic-mats>t2 metals>t3+metals, due to the difficulty & time sink of actually making t2 metals.

Anyway, it's a game so real life comparisons are not that applicable and are just for fun, but you can't be telling me that obsidian holds an edge better & is better for arms and armor than masterwork bronze or copper alloy/brass? Because that's just not true.

As far as 'bronze age swords quickly replaced by iron', that's actually a common misconception. People have studied this extensively, and masterfully made bronze arms are actually marginally superior to early iron weapons until you get widespread bloom furnaces & steel into the medieval period (which we might compare to steel, or, in its later & higher quality period tungsteel). The reason iron was actually adopted was due to trade-networks/logistics; you could easily outfit a large army in iron vs. having to find rarer tin to make bronze from copper. When the late bronze age collapse occurred, bronze age copper & tin trade-networks dried up fairly universally.
You get a lot of people who are not master bronzeworkers like bronze age smiths making shitty bronze weapons and then using fairly good modern iron & techniques and surmising that iron is 100% superior to bronze right out of the gate. In actuality, historians of the period are pretty unified on their view that early iron age arms & armor made of bronze were superior in functionality to early iron age arms and armor made of iron. It wasn't just 'fashion' that Ancient Greeks, and even the Romans(just to name a couple), continued to work with bronze long after iron-working had become commonplace.

Basically, bronze gets shit on a lot because it takes a lot of artisanal skill to work it properly, and most armaments made from it today are not made by master bronzeworkers(which makes sense, since we have relatively easy access to high quality steel, and so most people specialize in working it instead). High quality bronze tipped spears, for example, can even puncture sheets of iron (and there is proof of this on youtube). People wouldn't have kept using it if it didn't do a fine job.

Again, none of this really matters, since this is ultimately a fantasy game and not a simulation of the real world... But to continue the comparison for the fun of it, cuprum is superior to bron in the game. There is absolutely no argument for copper being superior or even comparable to bronze in any kind of arm or armor. Bronze is copper's big brother, and is superior in every way.

With all of that said, I'd even take having cuprum get a mild nerf if Bron could get a big buff and bring it up to just below steel. I think it would be a good gameplay change, even aside from the real world comparisons, which are just for fun. I don't think bron getting buffed up to, say, between jadeite and steel, would be a negative change in any way gameplay wise... Why does t2 have to be relegated to purely niche roles? What exactly does this add to the experience, beyond making refining a slog?

I mean you also should look into material rarity in the real world. I mean copper isnt uncommon but it isnt exactly common in some regions where iron is more common. But good quality iron ore may not be as common. The italian region wasn't known for high quality iron or, so sometimes the use of bronze well past the point of working iron was more of a cost thing. Also making sheets of steel wasnt a thing until around the middle ages, 900-1200 time frame (roughly).

Again a lot of factors went into real life advancement more so than in Mortal Online. I mean we are a few minutes from every resource needed to make anything we can imagine in game.