Forcing people to towns.

[Tzone]

Refining Tables and Territory Control

Refining tables are for keeps only. This was decided to give keeps uniqueness in the balance vs strongholds. We want to promote using NPC towns and keep them alive. Player towns will have options for refining their metals when the Territory Control sections of the game make it in. In regards to TC and player towns, we will have a mechanic the simulates NPC trading. In layman's terms, it will direct how your towns or strongholds receive goods for the NPCs to supply you with specific vendors.

- Henrik

That was the reasoning for not giving us refining tables. So many things are wrong with this game because players can nor disperse across the map. The horrible node over populations, and PvPers going to towns to fight which gets noobs caught in the crossfire.

People need to be disperse across the map and let the towns be new player friendly. SV does a lot to make people have to use towns and go to them which causes a lot of performance issues but also means you make your towns super unsafe to be around. Around as in outside of the town in the surrounding areas.

By forcing everyone to the towns you just make the super dangerous, people that need other people to fight have to go there.

The path of make everyone go to town I cant understand why you would want to force such a anti player idea which is also anti sandbox. Its another reason for the troubles MO2 is having.

 

[Foundry]

Players should not have the ability to completely cut themselves off from towns, that would spiral the already abysmally designed economy into the ground. To the point of non existence.

I agree with placing refining tables for keeps, but i don't agree with that being the solution for making keeps valuable, or unique. Breathing life into the world around those keeps, is what will give them value.

In Albion for example we have Territories(Keeps) and Hideouts((Strongholds).The value of holding a territory or hideout comes from the natural resources the area allows us to control, including PVE activities. But more importantly it gives us a massive advantage when interacting with the closest cities economy , through trade routes. And even more so the commodity of people through recruitment.

Hideouts and territories are not self sufficient, they are not cut off from NPC towns. Otherwise the game's economy would not work. In MO2's case a similar approach would need to be established otherwise the concept of TC will just be Ego driven, and frankly pointless.

Owning a keep right now gives you what in game? control over a chest with walls, maybe some houses. Oh and a bush pig/horse spawn with the odd sator camp thrown in XD. Terrible.

We are already skating a thin line with how guilds are becoming self sufficient, the sheer lack of broker qol to make the economy work such as buy orders. And a vendor based economy, masquerading as a player driven one. I can assure you that refining bench is the least of this game's concerns.

 

[Tzone]

Players should not have the ability to completely cut themselves off from towns, that would spiral the already abysmally designed economy into the ground. To the point of non existence.

I agree with placing refining tables for keeps, but i don't agree with that being the solution for making keeps valuable, or unique. Breathing life into the world around those keeps, is what will give them value.

In Albion for example we have Territories(Keeps) and Hideouts((Strongholds).The value of holding a territory or hideout comes from the natural resources the area allows us to control, including PVE activities. But more importantly it gives us a massive advantage when interacting with the closest cities economy , through trade routes. And even more so the commodity of people through recruitment.

Hideouts and territories are not self sufficient, they are not cut off from NPC towns. Otherwise the game's economy would not work. In MO2's case a similar approach would need to be established otherwise the concept of TC will just be Ego driven, and frankly pointless.

Owning a keep right now gives you what in game? control over a chest with walls, maybe some houses. Oh and a bush pig/horse spawn with the odd sator camp thrown in XD. Terrible.

We are already skating a thin line with how guilds are becoming self sufficient, the sheer lack of broker qol to make the economy work such as buy orders. And a vendor based economy, masquerading as a player driven one. I can assure you that refining bench is the least of this game's concerns.

So you dont know what a sandbox is?

 

[Vaith]

It is very important for the game that NPC cities are kept alive and player interactions happens there. I talked alot about that on mo1 forums when all the npc cities except tindrem was completely dead

 

[Tzone]

It is very important for the game that NPC cities are kept alive and player interactions happens there. I talked alot about that on mo1 forums when all the npc cities except tindrem was completely dead

So ruin the game for people to have fake experince of a city. Game cant handle clumped up cities, cities are shit holes and a bad gaming experince.

 

[Vaith]

So ruin the game for people to have fake experince of a city. Game cant handle clumped up cities, cities are shit holes and a bad gaming experince.

Thats because you are tunnel visioning from your personal experience as a guy whos already guilded and living out of a stronghold somewhere.
Places for player interactions is super important for MMOs and player retention - New players can watch and learn, join in for some guardzone pvp, trade, get recruited, learn whats happening in the world through the voices of veterans etc.

in MO1 this died out with TC, except for tindrem. it ended up with people being logged out in their Walled off "strongholds" and waiting for either a prearranged fight or to hear the rare "hey these guys are close lets login and fight" so you logged out of the other game to fight for a couple of minutes in MO before switching games til next fight.

 

[Tzone]

Thats because you are tunnel visioning from your personal experience as a guy whos already guilded and living out of a stronghold somewhere.
Places for player interactions is super important for MMOs and player retention - New players can watch and learn, join in for some guardzone pvp, trade, get recruited, learn whats happening in the world through the voices of veterans etc.

in MO1 this died out with TC, except for tindrem. it ended up with people being logged out in their Walled off "strongholds" and waiting for either a prearranged fight or to hear the rare "hey these guys are close lets login and fight" so you logged out of the other game to fight for a couple of minutes in MO before switching games til next fight.

Im not doing any of that. Making the game more restrictive and less fun means you are going to have less players. Less players means you towns which many players hate being at or near empty.

If the game was good and didn't screw people over you would have a higher player pop which would naturally keep your cities alive instead these artificial out of touch anti sandbox mechanics. Restricting things like refining overn makes the game less fun, makes people want to play less, reduces the pop, which in turns makes cities empty.

Towns suck badly, why dont people want to live in a town and why are your having to force them against their will to go to a town? Maybe answer those questions and you can naturally make people want to go live out of towns.

Nothing you say about living in towns applies to walls or hiding away from fights. Towns are the main safe zone hide from fights issue of the game, even with houses.

This game wants people to live in towns but it punishes players for PvP which is the core of the game. Trying to say its not what drives the game is ignorant and blind so dont even try to talk about non existent pillars of PvP or RP because the devs dont even work on making that content better. You force people to cities then wonder why there is PvP outside your city, then punish the people who PvP by not allowing them to go into the required town. Then wonder why your casual player base is shrinking.

The devs backward idea of making the game alive is to restrict and punish player freedom to push and funnel people together causing all these problems with PvPing people who dont want PvP. Make your players have to live out of towns but then make those players not beable to live in towns do to punishing PvP then wondering why people quit the game so you make it harsher to live outside of towns. Devs just continue to restrict and remove content to the game rather then make reason for people to actually not hate and want to use towns.
Instead of making towns necessary why dont they make them have content like buy orders. SV doesnt know anything but the stick approach though to game development.

Now it BH system you punish the causal red players that live in towns and do parcel runs out of the game killing off your population even more while the murderhobos are too far away or mop the floor with them in the wild.

All this talk about player retention is funny when you look at the pop, we all know SV are terrible out of touch developers killing their game and the remaining people here are here despite what they do not because they are doing the right changes to the game.

 

[Vaith]

i dont agree

 

[Tzone]

i dont agree

Rorce people to live in towns, then punish out of the towns for participating in the games main and most depth full content. Wonder why your game is dying and that you feel the need to then punish people for living outside of towns which they cant live in the first place. Very logical.

Disagree if you want but don't be calling this game a sandbox. Very clear to a reasonable person what is causing a lot of the games issues here is caused by SV forcing a catch 22. People will still use towns, most people in towns are there not for a refining oven. You are only getting some dudes alt who doesn't interact with anyone in the town because they are AFK refining on a geforce now.

Its more about making the game not look dead even if it kills it then actually making a good game.

 

[Vaith]

You dont understand the complexities of a MMO, you dont see how the game works on a Macro scale and if the game was following your design we might as well go play Mordhau or Chivalry

 

[Tzone]

You dont understand the complexities of a MMO, you dont see how the game works on a Macro scale and if the game was following your design we might as well go play Mordhau or Chivalry

I do man, you just refuse to see it any other way. Im literally asking for sandbox survival mechanics for a sandbox survival based game. Nothing I said was to say make the game more arena no reason to cliche'ly bring up mordhau when people talk about PvP the games pillar.

 

[Jatix]

The issue is you are both right.

Current MO2 is a joke of a sandbox. Its more lie ka small box of those jumbo legos that are too big to build anything intelligent out of. To be an actual sand box, actual survival mechanics and stuff to live out in the world are needed.

But, as an MMO, sandbox mechanics usually make it a worse mmo. People living out of town makes the game feel dead. Which is a large problem mo1 had. And one players sand usually takes sand from another. When I was a nub in MO1, the entire western jungle was walled off at choke points so you couldn't get in without abusing bugs a new player wouldn't know about. And I was pissed about it.

So this games issue is its a sandbox pvp mmo. Which has never worked well before. The different parts just go poorly with each other, and trying to improve one hurts the other.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Refining Tables and Territory Control

Refining tables are for keeps only. This was decided to give keeps uniqueness in the balance vs strongholds. We want to promote using NPC towns and keep them alive. Player towns will have options for refining their metals when the Territory Control sections of the game make it in. In regards to TC and player towns, we will have a mechanic the simulates NPC trading. In layman's terms, it will direct how your towns or strongholds receive goods for the NPCs to supply you with specific vendors.

- Henrik

That was the reasoning for not giving us refining tables. So many things are wrong with this game because players can nor disperse across the map. The horrible node over populations, and PvPers going to towns to fight which gets noobs caught in the crossfire.

People need to be disperse across the map and let the towns be new player friendly. SV does a lot to make people have to use towns and go to them which causes a lot of performance issues but also means you make your towns super unsafe to be around. Around as in outside of the town in the surrounding areas.

By forcing everyone to the towns you just make the super dangerous, people that need other people to fight have to go there.

The path of make everyone go to town I cant understand why you would want to force such a anti player idea which is also anti sandbox. Its another reason for the troubles MO2 is having.

Keeps and towns having refining Ovens like Foundry mentioned are the reason people would have to travel, i don't like the idea of giving keep owners more advantages now when theres no sieging and specially considering most keeps got cheesed out on launch.
But i believe keeps having these features can suddently be another reason for people to develop allegiance or new trading routes and services.
Its acceptable keep owners have certain benefits yet its debatable when and in which terms.

Im not sure if giving wilderness buildings complete control on metal production is the right path to decompress towns, refining is a lucrative part of the game. Suddently giving metal production to isolated places with houses will be the scenario for player metal factories to arise and multiclient mass produce with almost no risk and store with safety for later transport.

I support there has to be reason for people to travel and transit the world, not to be static in a town all day or in a player made house.

Something that has to be encouraged by development are the need for organic population of the wilderness. Thats a key element of the game, you want people travelling, transporting, moving stuff, scorting, buying selling and such, this brings life to the game not pvp 2 meters away from town.
I think its actually good pvp is pushed away from towns, but it shouldn't be done with guards it should be done with content.

Now, i do consider refining ovens shouldn't be able to be placed inside a keep. They should be placeable outside the keep walls so anyone can use and if the keep owners want to have control over it should enforce it. Make them fight and be organized for using a very lucrative feature of the game just because they chessed out a keep on launch.
Keeps cannot be sieged, then they shouldn't have any feature whatsoever till sieging is out. Otherwise is another piece of shait favor SV does for big guilds, it does not help minor groups, it does not help solo players and it doesn't do anything for the common of the people, just nutcups and the need to belong to a massive zerg. I despise SV keeps making favors for keep owning guilds, its absolutly off the charts retarded.

But its important to understand stablishing organic ways for people not to only populate but to transit the world is the way to go, the question is how.

 

[grendel]

TC killed MO1. Maybe keeps can have refining, maybe, we will see. But not every house or stronghold. We need a reason to travel.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

TC killed MO1. Maybe keeps can have refining, maybe, we will see. But not every house or stronghold. We need a reason to travel.

TC didn't kill the game, it was starvault. If anything TC made people play the game, i was there when TC came out and i was there for the biggest TC wars and believe me when i tell you, it was poor design and not doing anything about it what killed the game.

 

[grendel]

TC didn't kill the game, it was starvault. If anything TC made people play the game, i was there when TC came out and i was there for the biggest TC wars and believe me when i tell you, it was poor design and not doing anything about it what killed the game.

With TC people stopped travelling, or they did so much less. It made travel boring and the world feel empty. Idk how TC affected player numbers, but my "feeling" was that the game became empty and boring.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

With TC people stopped travelling, or they did so much less. It made travel boring and the world feel empty. Idk how TC affected player numbers, but my "feeling" was that the game became empty and boring.

People did travel a lot after and during TC i can tell you that because i've killed hundreds of people transporting insane amounts of shit. At first TC became a way for people to exploit many things, imagine breeding pens spawned top stats horses and animals all the time, people was making thousands of gold a day just with a small walled off piece of land, same with the ones that walled of resources, very slowly these problems were being addressed but the economic damage was already done due to shit design.
We had mining operations that could produce like 10 stacks of steel a day or more, so poor fuckers that couldn't afford a mining compound would have to manually mine shit while big guilds could get massive amounts of metal with almost no effort.

The game wasn't boring, but it was losing people, people that couldn't exploit fast enough to take the advantage, people that got tired of sieging or getting sieged, people that couldn't or wouldn't keep paying TC upkeeps.
Hell we let oasis keep go down with all its TC and a territory control from tindrem to batki, hundreds of gold a day of upkeep after a bunch of guilds in our alliance quit the game and ID alliance was trying to siege us during 2 entire weeks someone was DDosing the server.

TC wasn't bad, what was bad was the poor design and unfair untested mechanics that favored greatly the ones that already had and didn't gave shit to the ones that didn't have anything. It wasn't TC that ruined the game, it was really piss poor choices and very slow reaction time from devs, what also made a lot of people quit was the absolutly retarded time it took for SV to bring garbage broken patches and promises of better content.

Maybe walls were a big part of what was wrong with MO1, but if SV actually addressed all the problematics people were already sharing in the forums it could have been a completly different thing. At that point SV knew the proyect was gone and they didn't give a fuck and just kept adding half cooked shitty content.

TC was beneficial in many aspects for the people playing, it populated the world and it made people to generate more with less time it was something people needed. TC red priests suddently made wilderness conflict a much more organic scenario and people fought all around without the need to travel for long time.

You wouldn't even know how many people i've killed in sarducaa and sarducaa bridge, people transporting shit.

Also, there were transporting exploits that bypassed risk of transport entirely. Such as the mailbox exploit that was there for years and even tho many people including me reported it, took years to get aknowledged. You could also trick GMs to make you favors like spawning your pets and lets not even talk player GMs and councelours, that did irreparable damage to the community's confidence on SV.

Many people blamed TC because of what happened after it came, but it wasn't TC what broke the game, it was really poor ass design and very slow reaction time from SV, by the time they found out people were exploiting it was already too late.


On a side note, i remember when SV broke archery hitboxes in MO1, horses and MA's couldn't get hit by arrows and this was broken for 6 months till one day sebastian said "is there something wrong with archery?" and then it only took 3 more months to fix archery hitboxes they broke for absolutly no fucking reason. So 9 months of dev time to aknowledge and fix something that was working fine but they broke somehow. Shit like that killed the game.

 

[Tzone]

TC killed MO1. Maybe keeps can have refining, maybe, we will see. But not every house or stronghold. We need a reason to travel.

You already have reasons to go to towns for gold, marketplace, housing vendors, guild stone, other people, safety, and buying horses.

All refining gets you is one dude on his Geforce Now blue crafter alt AFK macro leveling or spending 5, 10 minutes making a couple of stacks that he transported into town and will transport out of town.

Pretty silly hearing that TC caused mo to die. SV killed the last game and is killing this game. Living outside of towns is major content and reason to play the game. You are just cutting your games population by denying that.

You force people to towns but they are not allowed into towns if they participate in the main content of the game. Punishments got worse and worse for PvP mainly due to people crying about PvP outside towns which is caused by clumping everyone together making the rest of the world dead, which means you had to go to towns for PvP when the game was slow.
SV just does things to make the game less fun as a knee jerk reaction to the consequences of players doing things they dont like. But the players are doing things they dont like because of SVs initial changes.

Make the game more fun, allow actual sandbox and world building then you will have a living world which brings players to the game and you will naturally have more population in the cities because the game isnt dying because you forced people to have to live out of towns which they are not even allowed in.

 

[Tzone]

People did travel a lot after and during TC i can tell you that because i've killed hundreds of people transporting insane amounts of shit. At first TC became a way for people to exploit many things, imagine breeding pens spawned top stats horses and animals all the time, people was making thousands of gold a day just with a small walled off piece of land, same with the ones that walled of resources, very slowly these problems were being addressed but the economic damage was already done due to shit design.
We had mining operations that could produce like 10 stacks of steel a day or more, so poor fuckers that couldn't afford a mining compound would have to manually mine shit while big guilds could get massive amounts of metal with almost no effort.

The game wasn't boring, but it was losing people, people that couldn't exploit fast enough to take the advantage, people that got tired of sieging or getting sieged, people that couldn't or wouldn't keep paying TC upkeeps.
Hell we let oasis keep go down with all its TC and a territory control from tindrem to batki, hundreds of gold a day of upkeep after a bunch of guilds in our alliance quit the game and ID alliance was trying to siege us during 2 entire weeks someone was DDosing the server.

TC wasn't bad, what was bad was the poor design and unfair untested mechanics that favored greatly the ones that already had and didn't gave shit to the ones that didn't have anything. It wasn't TC that ruined the game, it was really piss poor choices and very slow reaction time from devs, what also made a lot of people quit was the absolutly retarded time it took for SV to bring garbage broken patches and promises of better content.

Maybe walls were a big part of what was wrong with MO1, but if SV actually addressed all the problematics people were already sharing in the forums it could have been a completly different thing. At that point SV knew the proyect was gone and they didn't give a fuck and just kept adding half cooked shitty content.

TC was beneficial in many aspects for the people playing, it populated the world and it made people to generate more with less time it was something people needed. TC red priests suddently made wilderness conflict a much more organic scenario and people fought all around without the need to travel for long time.

You wouldn't even know how many people i've killed in sarducaa and sarducaa bridge, people transporting shit.

Also, there were transporting exploits that bypassed risk of transport entirely. Such as the mailbox exploit that was there for years and even tho many people including me reported it, took years to get aknowledged. You could also trick GMs to make you favors like spawning your pets and lets not even talk player GMs and councelours, that did irreparable damage to the community's confidence on SV.

Many people blamed TC because of what happened after it came, but it wasn't TC what broke the game, it was really poor ass design and very slow reaction time from SV, by the time they found out people were exploiting it was already too late.


On a side note, i remember when SV broke archery hitboxes in MO1, horses and MA's couldn't get hit by arrows and this was broken for 6 months till one day sebastian said "is there something wrong with archery?" and then it only took 3 more months to fix archery hitboxes they broke for absolutly no fucking reason. So 9 months of dev time to aknowledge and fix something that was working fine but they broke somehow. Shit like that killed the game.

I think its hilarious to say that MO1 died because people were not forced to live out of towns. So many issues with that game and someone chose that as the reasoning.

People tend to say x kill mo, and y made it live longer. With x and y changing between people but this one was the funniest.

 

[grendel]

People tend to say x kill mo, and y made it live longer. With x and y changing between people but this one was the funniest.

Fair enough, there were as many reasons as thr were playstyles or maybe even players. Speaking as a town dweller, TC was a major cause.