Do you want the game to wipe?

[Kaemik]

Many times a day huh? Prove it. Show us the proof of this.

I'm not going to be able to prove it but if you pay attention you'll see a lot of people advertising things for 10k and above. I'm assuming you wouldn't see so many people advertising those kinds of prices if they weren't getting something close to them.

 

[Emdash]

I think MO2 was set up to do alright as a game at launch tbh haha. Exploits suck the life out of a community. Queues. Alt servers. The amount of shit this game has gone thru is crazy. It's hard to see a light at the end, but the part that bothers me is that it doesn't seem like SV is looking for a way to fix it first, they want to add stuff like necro etc before, which prol will add to more exploits and make it harder to fix.

MO1 had small pop and it was engaging. The 3000 pop or w/e Henrik wants is just his number, that's not THE IDEAL POP of the game. There's just not enough stuff to do. Hodo I think said MO lite... and yea... unfort MO lite is not.. what we wanted...

 

[Kaquenqos]

t's hard to see a light at the end, but the part that bothers me is that it doesn't seem like SV is looking for a way to fix it first, they want to add stuff like necro etc before, which prol will add to more exploits and make it harder to fix.

This. 1000000% this. They haven't even completed MO2 as a basic experience, the state of the game right now reminds me of Bannerlord when it launched in Early Access. They haven't balanced out a thing because some basic combat & clade skills are not even implemented to balance against, they haven't fleshed out Myrland, PvP mechanics are a freaking mess... And yet, what do we get? New stuff... Always new stuff that will never be completed or fine-tuned.

If MO2 were a house, it's like they poured the foundation halfway then went "Nah this is boring", started building right away, it started sinking, so they start putting some walls up, then they start putting a roof before there are even four walls, then instead of taking a step back to finish the foundation they go "Jeeze we need a freaking pool, guys! What were we thinking!" The house countinues to submerge into the earth, the pool is empty and nobody can swim in it as the house slumps over, so they do the reasonable thing and go "Wow... This is a problem...The problem is I've always wanted a balcony!"

MO1 had small pop and it was engaging. The 3000 pop or w/e Henrik wants is just his number, that's not THE IDEAL POP of the game. There's just not enough stuff to do. Hodo I think said MO lite... and yea... unfort MO lite is not.. what we wanted...

I mean, obviously as a game designer you want your game to do reasonably well, and on a personal/career level I'm sure he'd love to have more success with his second run at an MMO for myriad reasons.

Funny thing is, too, I think MO2 could easily maintain a stable population of 3-10k... The game is fun overall, it's just empty and completely shallow, and none of the core sandbox mechanics are very deep or make much sense. They need to finish the core of their game (the world/the skills/the clades etc.) and then focus on fundamental sandbox systems, like the PvP mechanics, like guild systems/TC/alliances/wardecs, and even more mechanics on top of that to give an actual framework for what the heck is going on, and what the heck people are supposed to do.

Necromancy? What will that do for the game right now? Maybe 200 people will decide to log in again for about 3 days... What will it do long-term for the game? Nothing that can't be done better later, when the important stuff is hammered out.

 

[CistaCista]

If ANYONE can name an actual MMO that benefited from wiping their servers (listing specific examples and how it helped the game thrive)- I would be open to hear that point of view

Yea this was also my thought.

Please tell us about any earlier MMOs where a wipe 6 months after release led to a happy community and a prosperous future. Examples of this must be the absolute minimum if we are to take the idea of a wipe seriously.

 

[Emdash]

MO would benefit from a wipe if and only if it's pop after would be much greater than its pop before. People are gonna farm the stuff back, like they said, it's easy enough.

I'd also wonder what other MMO was as busted after 6 mo haha. IMO I'd start with similar circumstances then talk about solutions. A wipe isn't the only solution, and I'll admit I'm not one of the people who put mad work in cuz I kinda... knew... lol. Well I was kinda like might as well take this slow cuzzz...

So I wouldn't be losing that much. I'd be heavily offended to lose my wep crafter, but if it set everyone back to 0, I'd prolly deal with it. I can get those 100 stacks of bone tissue or w/e again lol. The fact that everyone who specs weps is gonna end up with GM crafter is kinda crazy, and I didn't even do pole axes.

Mats come and go. I'm good to get them on a need to have basis, but grinding hours at the table is tuff. It's WORK lol. You should be able to fakn slot the mats in and it levels up your skill haha. But yea... tbh, wiping WOULD fix some of the problems, but it would piss a lot of people off. It def wouldn't fix them all.

 

[Kaquenqos]

Yea this was also my thought.

Please tell us about any earlier MMOs where a wipe 6 months after release led to a happy community and a prosperous future. Examples of this must be the absolute minimum if we are to take the idea of a wipe seriously.

Yeah, the problem is it's more than a bit disingenuous to call MO2 a game '6 months after release', even though that's literally what it is (it was disingenuous of SV to 'release' in the state that they did). The state of the game is so unfinished, even though it's 1.0+ right now it really doesn't feel like it, and anyone can tell that after playing for a couple days.

So it all depends what SV are going to do:
If they are going to do a second release with advertising at a point where the vanilla experience of the game is actually finished and they have a chance of retaining the players they pull in, a wipe is not really '6 months after release' and would be a good way to pull in more people at once & potentially retain a lot of them. Again, in this case, this is something they would do probably 6months-1year+ from now after finishing the game & withholding some big mechanics, like maybe fleshed out TC & cities or something, for the '2.0' relaunch.

If you want an example of earlier MMOs that wiped much after release and led to a happy community because the initial release wasn't up to snuff, we have FFXIV 1.0 vs FFXIV A Realm Reborn. Personally I'm not a fan of FFXIV2.0's game design (basically a JARPG with MMO elements), but that is absolutely what Square did in this instance, and it was a very successful decision. It wouldn't be exactly the same since FFXIV 1.0 vs 2.0 was a redesign, but the concept is the same since MO2's '1.0' is more like an alpha or early beta. So, to make a parallel, for them to pull it off, MO2 has to be in a state where it has a fully fleshed out game-world, skills, clades, with deep sandbox elements to PvP & PvE etc. etc... and probably they would have to withhold some big mechanics for the 2.0 release so they can advertise it as 'new improved' '50 mega power' 'blast processing' 'starvault do what nintendon't' etc.

Basically I'm not saying this will happen, and I'm sure SV will blow it and keep working on random new mechanics instead of finishing the game... All of this is just to say, it can and has worked in the past, especially on a game like MO2 whose 1.0 release has a reputation for being incomplete & buggy/broken like an early access.

 

[Kaemik]

Yea this was also my thought.

Please tell us about any earlier MMOs where a wipe 6 months after release led to a happy community and a prosperous future. Examples of this must be the absolute minimum if we are to take the idea of a wipe seriously.

FF14

Of course, it's not just a wipe in that case. It was a "We screwed up badly so we are going to back to the drawing board to fix things then re-release." Which is what MO2 needs to do as well.

Given that example is the game that is actually in the process of surpassing WoW to become the most popular MMO right now, it's really the only example you need to know that this can work.

The original Final Fantasy XIV, released in September 2010, was a commercial and critical failure. In response, then-Square Enix President Yoichi Wada announced that a new team, led by Yoshida, would take over and attempt to fix the issues with it. This team was responsible for generating content for the original version as well as developing a brand new game which would address all of the previous release's criticisms. This new game, initially dubbed "Version 2.0", features a new game engine, improved server infrastructure, and revamped gameplay, interface, and story. The original version shut down in November 2012 and was followed by an alpha test for Version 2.0.

The game released to largely positive reception; critics praised the game for its solid mechanics and progression, and they commended Yoshida for turning the project around. After a poor 2013 fiscal year, Square Enix executives attributed the company's 2014 return to profitability in part to the game's strong sales and subscriber base, reaching a total of over 24 million registered players by October 2021, also becoming the most profitable Final Fantasy game to date.[1] The game has had a number of post-release updates produced for it, including four major expansion packs: Heavensward (2015), Stormblood (2017), Shadowbringers (2019), and Endwalker (2021).

 

[Kaemik]

I know SV isn't going to do a new team but if they did want to instill some confidence I'd add some new blood to their current team.

They basically need someone with experience balancing games and in project management. That person should have the following roles.

1. Overseeing the balance of the game to ensure all pieces work together as a greater whole.
2. Setting development goals / figuring out the roadmap.
3. Incorporating some of the best ideas from the community into the game design and conveying better to the community what is going on via weekly blog updates or something.

They should never touch a line of code. Never work on 3D assets etc. They should focus entirely on macro-level issues/balancing and convey enough of what's happening to the community that there is a newfound sense of confidence and hype.

"But Henrik's vision!" His vision needs to be refined down to the bare essentials of a highly immersive and detailed hardcore PvP game. Letting someone else who is better at balancing and prioritization come in and handle the fine details could actually see the broader vision succeed. That doesn't mean I want him off the project but I would love to see someone else who can occasionally say to Henrik. "Yeah those boats are totally a cool idea and I'd love to do them someday. But right now the biggest issue is role balance/pvp-flagging systems/etc. Let's focus on that and talk to the community about that and pay more attention to the boats when they are closer to being a part of the roadmap."

I think finding the right person for a job like this would be the difference on if this game could be successful in two years or not. With or without a wipe. I think bringing them on, going back into beta, and relaunching in 2 years would create a smaller success story like FFXIV though.

 

[Kaquenqos]

I know SV isn't going to do a new team but if they did want to instill some confidence I'd add some new blood to their current team.

They basically need someone with experience balancing games and in project management. That person should have the following roles.

1. Overseeing the balance of the game to ensure all pieces work together as a greater whole.
2. Setting development goals / figuring out the roadmap.
3. Incorporating some of the best ideas from the community into the game design and conveying better to the community what is going on via weekly blog updates or something.

They should never touch a line of code. Never work on 3D assets etc. They should focus entirely on macro-level issues/balancing and convey enough of what's happening to the community that there is a newfound sense of confidence and hype.

"But Henrik's vision!" His vision needs to be refined down to the bare essentials of a highly immersive and detailed hardcore PvP game. Letting someone else who is better at balancing and prioritization come in and handle the fine details could actually see the broader vision succeed. That doesn't mean I want him off the project but I would love to see someone else who can occasionally say to Henrik. "Yeah those boats are totally a cool idea and I'd love to do them someday. But right now the biggest issue is role balance/pvp-flagging systems/etc. Let's focus on that and talk to the community about that and pay more attention to the boats when they are closer to being a part of the roadmap."

I think finding the right person for a job like this would be the difference on if this game could be successful in two years or not. With or without a wipe. I think bringing them on, going back into beta, and relaunching in 2 years would create a smaller success story like FFXIV though.

Absolutely. A change in oversight like this is the only path to glory for SV.

Henrik is in love with the creative end of video-game design. If you watch any of his streams, it's obvious. The unfortunate reality, though, is that all video-game design is not always about creating. Sometimes it's just about getting mechanics fleshed out enough individually so that they work & fit together as a holistic system. Sometimes it's about collecting data and balancing mechanics against one another based on the data collected. Sometimes it's about finding mechanics that you can balance against other mechanics without creating negative unforeseen results. Sometimes it's about modifying said mechanics due to the unforeseen results. Sometimes it's just about reworking the same code over and over until it actually works, even if it's boring and makes development feel slow. Sometimes it's not creative, it's methodical and pragmatic. That's how you get quality, especially for something as mechanically complex as an open-world sandbox game...

Having the creative genius to conceptualize a general concept of something, and having the logistical & logical genius to properly direct the creation of complex systems are not the same talent. Often the same person does not possess both talents in equal portions.

SV needs the boring Poindexter that will organize everything that is being done so that the big picture(interplaying mechanics) aligns with the minor details(individual mechanics & code) in a way that makes the whole of the game feel greater than the sum of its parts. They should try to poach someone from Paradox Interactive... Maybe that's not realistic, but someone who has experience with that kind of game-design would be ideal; maybe even someone with a table-top game-design background. Someone with that kind of skillset.

Henrik should stay on as the creative director & owner kind of like a Miyamoto or something for SV, the 'big ideas/overall concept' guy-- but they need someone who can fill the role of 'game director/producer' to oversee the nitty-gritty 'does this work, why and why not, how can it work if not, what is the goal of this mechanic, does it accomplish it' quality management & general direction end of things.

 

[Emdash]

Having the creative genius to conceptualize a general concept of something, and having the logistical & logical genius to properly direct the creation of complex systems are not the same talent. Often the same person does not possess both talents in equal portions.

As a creative genius myself!! Nah, but we're not even talking about talent, we're talking about finite time. It's inefficient like 10 person roams. However, to take steps back on that, the thing is... some work of polishing the game has been done already. At some point, the whole direction of the game changed, and I can't understand why. It seems like putting this 'new direction' on top of old MO is the biggest problem. This new player friendly, actions have consequences (based on systems) idea... lore up in haven. It's just garbo. People shit on themselves over instancing, while being happy most players can spec their chars in an instance. Might as well delete fucking haven and let people choose a template to start with of a partially specced char heh.

The code part is hard to understand, for sure, and some people can do crazy things. But I feel like MO is failing in different ways. There are parts that slip thru and fail, like Heretic saying horse clearance made it impossible to get a horse in your house, or ana saying you can't chain a certain feint, but more or less they are doing, y'know, 75+% of what they are trying to do.

The world NOT being populated with mobs, mobs (including horses) being massively over spawned when they ARE there. Extreme lack of pickables, lack of urns n shite you can loot while you are out and about. I still dunno where to get keys! I dunno why they added keys haha.

Like I said in BETA, and this hasn't changed, if you can go to a place, stop, and turn around 360 and see no mobs, no pickables, no interactables, that's wack. I mean, there might be some obscure location that it will be like that regardless, but in MO, that is THE NORM. Rocks and grass.

 

[Favonius Cornelius]

I'm not going to be able to prove it but if you pay attention you'll see a lot of people advertising things for 10k and above. I'm assuming you wouldn't see so many people advertising those kinds of prices if they weren't getting something close to them.

See this is the problem, that just because a few rich guys are blowing stacks of gold on rare items, its not a reflection of the game for the rest of us. These guys should be looked at for duping, but other than that, just because there exists a guy who wants to drop 50 million on a Van Gough painting isn't a reflection of the basics of economic flow in the game. Probably a portion of this is hearsay and BS too; you can't believe everything you hear from gamers by a long shot.

 

[Kaemik]

See this is the problem, that just because a few rich guys are blowing stacks of gold on rare items, its not a reflection of the game for the rest of us. These guys should be looked at for duping, but other than that, just because there exists a guy who wants to drop 50 million on a Van Gough painting isn't a reflection of the basics of economic flow in the game. Probably a portion of this is hearsay and BS too; you can't believe everything you hear from gamers by a long shot.

Zero hearsay. I just watch trade chat dude.