dec bans, why are we perm banning for communication policy/gem harassment and ban evasion.

[poorconsumer]

In the december ban list it was stated

"11 accounts were banned for breaking Communication Policy. This includes some GM harassment.

3 accounts were banned for ban
evasion. These players were caught making or having alt accounts when they have already been banned."

-HWID bans, global ban for hacking ect isn't what im talking about. cheating is the only exception to what im saying-

almost no game and games that do do extraordinarily sparingly to ban accounts that break no rule unless there is a rule that stats ban evasion, which is a terrible rule. why are we banning players who have broke no rule on a new account ASSUMING we removed any rule that stats ban evasion is a ban-able offense. What action has the NEW account taken to harm the player base or undermine the game? Im not negatively impacted by a player on an account who's broke no rule other than being banned on a previous account.

Lets say someone's combat logging or duping like a bitch and gets banned. the accounts gone, deleted, its over, why would you punish them on another account for breaking no rules. you're never going to allow them to appeal the ban, which is absurd in the first place, you don't give ban durations, you essentially perm ban without prejudice anybody who breaks a rule. The 3 strike system is absolutely absurd, you can break a rule that doesn't warrant a perm ban, and then also be perm banned for breaking that rule which is the most illogical and irrational thought process I could imagine for a punishment system

also, why are we banning for speech and communication when temporary mutes are available? are the offenders suffering with a mental disorder that's causing them to type for hours on end or are they setting up bots to spam?


I want to see any ban evasions rules changed to only hackers, and accounts banned for ban evasion lifted until the account breaks a rule that undermines the integrity of the game or causes harm to the players.

Removal of the 3 strike system, IF an action is going to result in a perm ban, why are you waiting for the 3rd offense to perm ban. Perm ban for things that require perm ban, and temp ban things that require temp ban, and absolutely do not perm ban for temp ban offenses. This is wildly absurd to believe even was thought up or exists let alone was implemented.


You're the referee of the game, so act like a referee, you monitor the players, you know the guidelines, you help facilitate a competitive environment so that all players can play with one ruleset. You don't go onto the field and shoot the player in the head cuz you yellow flagged him 3 times. I understand players need to be removed from the game, this is natural, but they almost never get removed from the sport. You're removing players from the sport because they fouled someone 3 times, or because they argued with the referee...yes these are things that get you kicked out of the GAME, not the SPORT. Stop perm banning for temp ban offenses, stop perm banning for language and communication.


EDIT: Just to be clear, to the developers/admins/volunteers who act swiftly and fix exploits and catch hackers, thanks. just want to discover how much is left over and what type of abuse the system has and say that i disagree if things are run a certain way and think there is a better way in my opinion.

 

[Amadman]

I disagree. If someone is permanently banned for duping or similar then they as a player should be removed from the game.

The game does not need players that are willing to do such things.

Besides if such things are seen to be punished severily then others will be less willing to do it themsleves.

 

[poorconsumer]

I disagree. If someone is permanently banned for duping or similar then they as a player should be removed from the game.

The game does not need players that are willing to do such things.

Besides if such things are seen to be punished severily then others will be less willing to do it themsleves.

punishment is not a deterrent of crime. this is a proven fallacy.

however, I do not agree that dupers should have the same treatment as hacking as they are not the same. hacking stands alone as all hackers should be HWID banned and not allowed to rejoin the game. Dupers and exploiters act off opportunity or weakness in the game and hackers do not. Poor game development and the exploitation of it from weak minded people who dupe and exploit simply do not fall in the same pool as hackers. I also believe duping should be a perm ban first offense, however should not be perm ban on accounts that have not offended. hacking would be perm ban across all accounts past/present/future.

edit: and its not a punishment for the hacker to be banned, its simply a removal of an actor from an environment. therefore not a deterrent. I argue everything beneath this would be a punishment, because a punishment I would argue is something you do when you want behavior to change to allow an individual back in to participate. You cannot punish someone you never give a second chance to, that's abolishment, not punishment.

 

[Jackdstripper]

punishment is not a deterrent of crime. this is a proven fallacy.

What?
I guess jails have been the most useless aspect of society since forever then.

I was punished once by my dad, and it certainly deterred me from committing further acts of crime.

So i will correct your clueless statement. Punishment is not a deterrent for stupid people, but for the average person its as much a necessity as rewards are for good deeds.

 

[Amadman]

punishment is not a deterrent of crime. this is a proven fallacy.

however, I do not agree that dupers should have the same treatment as hacking as they are not the same. hacking stands alone as all hackers should be HWID banned and not allowed to rejoin the game. Dupers and exploiters act off opportunity or weakness in the game and hackers do not. Poor game development and the exploitation of it from weak minded people who dupe and exploit simply do not fall in the same pool as hackers. I also believe duping should be a perm ban first offense, however should not be perm ban on accounts that have not offended. hacking would be perm ban across all accounts past/present/future.

edit: and its not a punishment for the hacker to be banned, its simply a removal of an actor from an environment. therefore not a deterrent. I argue everything beneath this would be a punishment, because a punishment I would argue is something you do when you want behavior to change to allow an individual back in to participate. You cannot punish someone you never give a second chance to, that's abolishment, not punishment.

It probably could be argued that duping can be more destructive to the game than some hacking.


A player running fast, auto attacking/aiming or what ever. Is caught banned and its done.

While players that are duping and using the proceeds to purchase and build can really mess up the economy long term.


Even if everything from that players account is deleted,

There still can be a ripple effect from all the transactions they made using duped items.



A life/death sentence is both a punishment to the offender and a deterrent to others that may consider doing the same thing.

If someone considering to do something see others getting away with freely, then they are more likely to do it themselves.

If however they see others are paying a high price for doing it then they may think twice about doing it themselves.


If not then it is on them for doing something that is so destructive without worrying about consequences.

 

[poorconsumer]

It probably could be argued that duping can be more destructive to the game than some hacking.


A player running fast, auto attacking/aiming or what ever. Is caught banned and its done.

While players that are duping and using the proceeds to purchase and build can really mess up the economy long term.


Even if everything from that players account is deleted,

There still can be a ripple effect from all the transactions they made using duped items.



A life/death sentence is both a punishment to the offender and a deterrent to others that may consider doing the same thing.

If someone considering to do something see others getting away with freely, then they are more likely to do it themselves.

If however they see others are paying a high price for doing it then they may think twice about doing it themselves.


If not then it is on them for doing something that is so destructive without worrying about consequences.

nothing has to change to keep you satisfied i suppose. so good for you.

 

[Robmo]

Yeah, This doesn't really fly. Mortal Online (the first one) had a reception of being hack friendly and we want to not repeat this potential issue.

Don't cheat and you can play.
Don't use inappropriate statements or vulgar language and you can play.

Its simple, be an adult and you'll be treated like one.

 

[Turbizzler]

Punishment is a deterrent for crime, just those who don't learn from their punishment and continue to do crime, either;
A ) Are an idiot and spend the rest of their life in and out of prison and don't know how to not get caught.
B) Are a product of their environment and come from lower social class, and their only way to get by is to commit crime to pay the bills and put food on the table. They don't usually get the proper support post incarceration and relapse.
C ) Clout chasers looking for street cred to boast how gangster or hard core they are, with their wrap sheet.

Now in reality, A and B are the common cases of reoffending. Just the way of life, but for the vast majority of the population...they don't end up in prison or commit major crimes. You know why? You guessed it...because of punishment.

In games, people cheat because they lack the skill or the time to progress to where they want. It usually evolves into an ego thing. Again, for most people they won't cheat because of punishment. Now a lot of the notorious cheaters of MO1 and MO2 fit into the B and C category, though prison in their instance is the ban hammer.

 

[Kaemik]

Permabanning cheater and dupers and all their alts is pretty reasonable.

Permabanning for talking back to GMs, based on some of the actions I've seen some of those GMs take... well I'm glad you don't get to moderate our steam reviews. That's personally been my outlet for catharsis when unprofessional actions have been taken on the part of volunteer staff and then we're told we can't talk about it publicly.

 

[Gnidex]

Yeah, This doesn't really fly. Mortal Online (the first one) had a reception of being hack friendly and we want to not repeat this potential issue.

Don't cheat and you can play.
Don't use inappropriate statements or vulgar language and you can play.

Its simple, be an adult and you'll be treated like one.

But the abuse already happened. And not just from hacks, it's the bugs your team could not fix in a timely manner that screwed the game royally like the recent magic bags just to pull the last issue off the top of my head.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

On the topic of crime and punishment, California's social experiment with laxed punishment for crime through Proposition 47, and I quote:

"Certainly San Franciscans aren’t debating whether or not crime is up. They know it is. In January, Police Chief William Scott acknowledged a 24 percent jump in property crimes from 2016 to 2017. Auto break-ins have soared in every district, and the arrest rate for them is an astonishing 1.6 percent. Citizens are right to feel disgusted and demoralized. In areas such as the Tenderloin, which is home for many of the city’s low-income immigrants, impoverished senior citizens, and families with young children, quality of life has deteriorated. Now more than ever, residents and merchants are living with a proliferation of addicts who roll up their sleeves, inject, and then nod off on the sidewalks or career down the street and into traffic. To fulfill customer demand, dealers sell packets of powder or pills in plain view of passers-by. There is no reason to hide. Why not shoot up wherever you want, leave bloody syringes in piles, steal, and deal when there are few if any consequences?"

Source: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/01/californias-proposition-47-crime-and-no-consequences/amp/

In contrast, Singapore's extremely low crime rates can be attributed to various simple common sense reasons, such as:

"Laws in Singapore are ENFORCED:
Unlike many countries in the world, Singapore enforces its laws. The system here means what it says and does what it means. We impose very tough laws and actually carry them out to deter people who "try their luck".

For example, many would remember Michael P. Fay who was a teenager convicted of public vandalism here and was charged and sentenced to jail+fine+Caning. Caning here is a heavy punishment meted out to crimes such as rape but is also used here for a petty offence like vandalism. You break the law here, it is all black and white. Even a plea from then American President Bill Clinton did not make our government waver in upholding its justice. (can you trust a government that backs down every time some big boy pushes your system?)"

Source: https://www.australiaslowlearner.world/Solutions/Why_is_Singapore's_crime_rate_so_low.htm

 

[poorconsumer]

Now in reality, A and B are the common cases of reoffending. Just the way of life, but for the vast majority of the population...they don't end up in prison or commit major crimes. You know why? You guessed it...because of punishment.

so all people would commit crimes, and all those who don't have made the consious decision to weigh the punishment and decide not to...

great logic, don't change your ideals.

 

[poorconsumer]

On the topic of crime and punishment, California's social experiment with laxed punishment for crime through Proposition 47, and I quote:

"Certainly San Franciscans aren’t debating whether or not crime is up. They know it is. In January, Police Chief William Scott acknowledged a 24 percent jump in property crimes from 2016 to 2017. Auto break-ins have soared in every district, and the arrest rate for them is an astonishing 1.6 percent. Citizens are right to feel disgusted and demoralized. In areas such as the Tenderloin, which is home for many of the city’s low-income immigrants, impoverished senior citizens, and families with young children, quality of life has deteriorated. Now more than ever, residents and merchants are living with a proliferation of addicts who roll up their sleeves, inject, and then nod off on the sidewalks or career down the street and into traffic. To fulfill customer demand, dealers sell packets of powder or pills in plain view of passers-by. There is no reason to hide. Why not shoot up wherever you want, leave bloody syringes in piles, steal, and deal when there are few if any consequences?"

Source: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/01/californias-proposition-47-crime-and-no-consequences/amp/

In contrast, Singapore's extremely low crime rates can be attributed to various simple common sense reasons, such as:

"Laws in Singapore are ENFORCED:
Unlike many countries in the world, Singapore enforces its laws. The system here means what it says and does what it means. We impose very tough laws and actually carry them out to deter people who "try their luck".

For example, many would remember Michael P. Fay who was a teenager convicted of public vandalism here and was charged and sentenced to jail+fine+Caning. Caning here is a heavy punishment meted out to crimes such as rape but is also used here for a petty offence like vandalism. You break the law here, it is all black and white. Even a plea from then American President Bill Clinton did not make our government waver in upholding its justice. (can you trust a government that backs down every time some big boy pushes your system?)"

Source: https://www.australiaslowlearner.world/Solutions/Why_is_Singapore's_crime_rate_so_low.htm

this is a lot of BS and 1-dimensional. Crime is the totality of environment and circumstance.

Singapore's low crime rate could be a lot of things, but proponents of an ideology could very easily look at certain objects in the environment and leverage them as to why it is so low...just like you're doing here to prove your point.

 

[poorconsumer]

Yeah, This doesn't really fly. Mortal Online (the first one) had a reception of being hack friendly and we want to not repeat this potential issue.

Don't cheat and you can play.
Don't use inappropriate statements or vulgar language and you can play.

Its simple, be an adult and you'll be treated like one.

What if you don't act like an adult where I'm from. I grew up in Detroit and spent 11 years in the oil field. Nobody I meet acts like an adult, especially when it comes to language people use, and language people are offended by.

What is inappropriate to you and vulgar to you is not the same to me. What I consider inappropriate and vulgar happens all day everyday without punishment and something you endorse and consider to be okay and not against the rules.

Also, it does fly? Im saying hackers don't get second chances and I know MO1 did this because beta MO2 said macroing was okay which totally dumbfounded me.

I don't see why language has to be an option of whether you can play, i can mute whoever i want whenever i want and language is not going to ever be an issue. I can't mute action, and you're taking opponents away from me because their words, words i never see, just poofing my opponent away and from my view, they did no action.

 

[Jybwee]

Pretty sure *the vast majority* of studies on criminology in the real world come to the same sort of conclusion. Specifically that increasing the perception that you will get caught for a crime is by far the largest deterrent. Hence my support for a monthly ban list.... that is also not to say that increasing the severity of punishment has NO effect, of course. And some studies find harsher punishment helps to increase recidivism, but in those cases you should pay close attention to other contributing factors.

https://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/deterrence.pdf

Rethinking Prison as a Deterrent to Future Crime - JSTOR Daily

Time behind bars can increase the likelihood that someone will re-offend, research finds. In many cases, programs that rehabilitate, rather than punish, may be a better solution.

daily.jstor.org

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5880&context=jclc <-- from 1974, just for fun
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-00731-0 <-- interesting one on peer punishment
https://ccjs.umd.edu/sites/ccjs.umd.edu/files/pubs/1compliant-Rational Choice, Paternoster.pdf
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf <-- simple 2 page thing from DoJ - office of justice programs.

The problem is, we're arguing about all this in a virtual world. One ruled by not only a Terms of Service, but virtual laws created by in-game mechanics. Which obviously changes many factors.

But let's steer it back to the language/harassment. As i believe that was the original intent of the tread - This virtual world is one with paid employees who, i would argue, need to be protected against harassment. I hope it's not too unfair to compare it to going into a sandwich shop and losing your shit on an employee who accidently puts red onions on your sandwich...
or, since we're in a game where you can virtually kill anothers' avatar. Let's say you're at a paint ball match, or lazer tag, lol (is that still a thing?). In any of these situations, if you start harassing an employee or even another player, i would hope the manager/owner would have the guts to kick you out.

Sometimes, I wish society *would* have a limit on how much it needs to deal with the inadequacies of parents and/or hissy fits of grown people. I feel it's only magnified in a very controlled virtual environment/society. Where we can more easily cull the population of this overly toxic behavior that is sometimes glorified in our real worlds.

Here's a fun quote from an interview of Richard Garriott from 1997 -

Next Generation 27 Mar 1997 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Next Generation 27 Mar 1997

archive.org

“One of the unfortunate side effects of computer gaming is that we have a whole generation of kids who have no social graces”

 

[poorconsumer]

But let's steer it back to the language/harassment. As i believe that was the original intent of the tread - This virtual world is one with paid employees who, i would argue, need to be protected against harassment. I hope it's not too unfair to compare it to going into a sandwich shop and losing your shit on an employee who accidently puts red onions on your sandwich...
or, since we're in a game where you can virtually kill anothers' avatar. Let's say you're at a paint ball match, or lazer tag, lol (is that still a thing?). In any of these situations, if you start harassing an employee or even another player, i would hope the manager/owner would have the guts to kick you out.

i like this part, except you walk into a virtual sandwich shop, and the person sitting at the table is talking to his friends in a vulgar (in your opinion) type of way, and they see you walk past and talk to you in this same vulgar (in your opinion) type of way, but its virtual, so you look at them /mute and continue on your way to get a sandwich...no harm..

alternatively, you walk into the virtual sandwich shop, you see a group of people talking in a vulgar manner (in your opinion) but the sandwich shop has a high score for how fast you can eat the sandwich, and the table of vulgar people beat you in every measurable dimension so you go to the shop owner, who walks to the table and vaporizes them from the shop. now they are wiped off the sandwich leaderboards and what exactly did that help? why didn't the guy /mute them? why did the owner have to go over and get rid of them. this logic makes absolutely no sense to me.



edit: just a side note, messing up a sandwich is one thing, making them repeat the order back to you, confirming the order is correct, then receiving the wrong order is different than a mistake. lets just get that part clear. if you mess my shit up after i made every reasonable effort to ensure you have it correct beforehand you better believe its going to be a shitty few minutes. as an inspector for many years you can imagine i don't like things being messed up though, pretty low tolerance for incompetence, miles of tolerance for mistakes, miles.

 

[poorconsumer]

really, i just wanna make sure people who aren't breaking rules on an account are not being banned for previous actions when the account in question wasn't created and never agreed to any ToS unless its for hacking. and that people who use "language" however you describe are not permanently removed.

have better mute functions and give us more control over what we see in chat and what text we see in game and how we want it filtered.

 

[Jybwee]

i like this part, except you walk into a virtual sandwich shop, and the person sitting at the table is talking to his friends in a vulgar (in your opinion) type of way, and they see you walk past and talk to you in this same vulgar (in your opinion) type of way, but its virtual, so you look at them /mute and continue on your way to get a sandwich...no harm..

alternatively, you walk into the virtual sandwich shop, you see a group of people talking in a vulgar manner (in your opinion) but the sandwich shop has a high score for how fast you can eat the sandwich, and the table of vulgar people beat you in every measurable dimension so you go to the shop owner, who walks to the table and vaporizes them from the shop. now they are wiped off the sandwich leaderboards and what exactly did that help? why didn't the guy /mute them? why did the owner have to go over and get rid of them. this logic makes absolutely no sense to me.



edit: just a side note, messing up a sandwich is one thing, making them repeat the order back to you, confirming the order is correct, then receiving the wrong order is different than a mistake. lets just get that part clear. if you mess my shit up after i made every reasonable effort to ensure you have it correct beforehand you better believe its going to be a shitty few minutes. as an inspector for many years you can imagine i don't like things being messed up though, pretty low tolerance for incompetence, miles of tolerance for mistakes, miles.

My sandwich shop example was only to highlight the similarities in verbally attacking/harassing an employee/player in a virtual vs real world, just because of what you see as 'incompetence' in them. That was all. One's hissy fit in response to this is incorrect behavior in any society and should be punished... imo.

Going into a virtual environment with virtual rules some dictated by ToS or by in-game mechanics, of course, changes some things... like having a /mute option. But even in the real world we have BIG 'OL /mute buttons that even the supreme court of the US has used in the passed. There's easy to find examples of hate speech and other obvious ones, but, https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/315/568 . Chaplinsky v New Hampshire that stated even fighting words are not protected by first amendment rights. Maybe the burden of action - plugging ones ears or /muting - shouldn't need to be made by the employee or normal player, but should lie on the shoulders of the one having the temper tantrum. One's inability to get around their ego or evolve as a person throughout their life is a burden on the rest of us as a whole.
But really the whole argument is moot as it's part of the tos. And probably further moot because we're not really even arguing about the exact same things as we don't have specifics of the speech used.

Your second point infers a corruption in the owner/GM/etc.

 

[Emdash]

Given all of the insurmountable hurdles MO has to face w/ one server, one world issue + their wonky engine, 'unfair' game play is probably the final straw for most people. The nature of the game is so cut throat, that cheating is kind of like PEDs in sports: an open secret. I'd be surprised to know of many players in MO history who were 'factors' and didn't benefit either directly from cheating or from being aligned with cheaters. Talking about purely competitively.

This could be an amazing PvP game. People can adapt to just about anything, if your disadvantage is x, just do y, etc, if you really wanna play high tier comp.

The game is 'growing' (SV still was too greedy to put their game at 19.99 heh,) but watch it bleed out, just as it always does.

I can say "lol yeabut UR CHEATING IN MORTAL ONLINE" or feel the salt they must be feeling when they STILL LOSE (but we all know, something is wrong w/ my brain,) but over time, they aren't going to?

This is a marathon MMO. It is going to continue to destroy the game. It's a cycle. Props to SV for adding RMT content to incentivize more cheating! Very ugly to have this on the front page of forum.

MO is very dynamic, very complex, even if some of the mechanics are weird. Everything put together, it's something with a stupid-high skill cap. Imagine investing 10k hours or whatever into your craft just to get duped out or hacked out. Obviously, you're not gonna quit at that point, cuz you're still GOOD, but the trajectory of your 'greatness' will change and, in my opinion, it is SO IMPACTFUL to have this happen to people (who either decide to 'go to the dark side' or just curb their competitive nature,) that it alters the whole game world and overall game health.

It's a big part of the 'toxic community' meme, even if not directly. It's the number 1 reason (IMO,) no matter what anyone says, that MO will never be what it should be, NOT LAG, NOT GM FAVORITISM, NOT SUB, etc.

And yet, not only do people get banned and come back (but we trust them not to do the same things again, of course,) but we actually have camps of people who a sympathetic to those who 'just made a mistake.'

I'm not gonna play the good person card, but I can say competition is a big driving force for me. With gaming, it's actually relaxing to get good comp. I have competed long enough that losing doesn't even bother me. I just wanna go at it, you know? In anything. Just for fun, to test our limits, whatever. It makes 0 sense to ever cheat in competition. You're not competing, then. You're wagging your dick and living a lie. GG.

I understand there will always be an upward climb to combat all of the, to quote Albie, problematics w/ MO and it's pro-cheating population, but they should be slamming everyone they catch. It's too important to the 'fair competition' crowd.

At this point, try to take a step back and look at how many 'advantageous situations' that have propelled people to positions they will probably never lose. That's with-or-without exploit/cheating, just game malfunctioning. IT'S A DAMN SHAME.

But yea... the last thing they (not even gonna say we anymore cuz bleee) need is a second chance program. haha. #cmonson.

Get this shit off the front page. You're losing potential customers.

 

[Bigbadwolff]

Will be usefull to have a ban sistem like fortnite, witch bans the machine and you cant play the game on that PC ever again