In this post I will focus on overall usefulness of Oghmirs compared to Thursars
Firstly, I will draw out the main point, the reason Thursars are the worst, and Oghmirs are the best clade then I will prove it.
Oghmirs are outliers at what they do, much more than Thursars are the outliers at what they do.
I hear it so often, and rightfully so, its a common RPG archetype between classes, that "Oghmirs are tanks, while Thursars are damage" and while this is true, its just true to an extend, and the extend will be a big talking point here, in this game Thursars damage bonus over Oghmirs is VERY negligible compared to Oghmirs tankiness compared to that of Thursars.
People see 24 vs 34 dmg bonus and think "Oh, so Thursars have 40% higher dmg bonus than Oghmirs, that so much!" forgetting what damage bonus actually is, a bonus, on top of 100, so its 124 vs 134, which makes it only a bit less than 8% total dmg. Which means, and I bring this out a lot if an Oghmir does 30 dmg, Thursar will do 32.
However Oghmirs are TRULY much tankier than Thursars:
A comparison of Oghmir Pipes vs Styganthrope - Pipes are 100 HP per minute, 50 HP every 30 seconds, with no negatives (blood kua) and Styg is 30 HP per minute (passive regen is its own thing and gives 10, 40-10=30) costs 100 primary points and has a penalty of 20% healing from all other sources. This is a massive disbalance, with just 2 clades we established Oghmirs heal 3.33x more per minute, get 100 primaries free AND heal for 25% more from all other sources (Thursars are at 80%, Oghmirs at 100%, its 25%)
Lifesteal is also bad - Lifesteal heals 25% of dmg dealt for 25 seconds and has a 2 and a half minute cooldown, we established pipes heal for 100 per minute, and now we will focus on thirst more, Oghmirs start with 50% larger potions, on their first pot, or second, depending on how they manage it, Oghmirs will have an average of 65 more HP gained from pots (average 6.5 heal pot) compared to Thursars if both also have 100 pot utilization, to counter that with lifesteal a Thursar would have to deal a whopping 260 damage in a span of 25 seconds, which is near impossible as it would mean you deal an average of 3120 DMG in a 5 minute fight. Oghmirs again, just like pipes get a consistent free heal thats also bigger.
Adamant vs Thick Skin - While adamant seems good on paper, and I myself went "Oh at least we get something good" the first time I read it, when I actually thought a bit more and compared the 2, the Thursar clade AGAIN, comes out as the worst - Adamant gives you 10% melee defence. Armor past steel and defensive stances flat dmg reduction that stacks, so Oghmirs get -6 dmg flat dmg reduction on slash and pierce, meaning that any attack that would deal 12 is HALVED, meaning reduced by 50% (adamant is 10%), those attacks happen very often on Oghimrs in a teamfight, swords and spears barely hurt them, doing 10s in as a non mace user, and even as a mace user against towershields. For adamant to outdo thick skin, an attack has to be 35+. Next point however completely closes the debate and its - Thursar clade also has a negative - it adds 10% more magic dmg at least 66% of the time if you spam it AND reduces your healing recieved from magic at least 66% of the time if you spam it, and during the active button, adamant actually INCREASES your dmg recieved from meele by 10% - making it never a consistent tanking tool, and another situational thing. Due to small difference in both, they will be ignored as they are hard to calculate.
Thursars have much larger hitbox - Thursars are much bigger than Oghmirs due to "height" stat that is, in my opinion underpowered and here's why: It does not give enough HP to offset hitbox size gain. Kallards and Thursars are the worst teamfighting clades, not just randomly, but because they offer nothing but a bit higher dmg, but then their hitbox is just 2x that of an Oghmir, overheads are easy to hit, you can hit them from side to side even when your teammates are grouping on them, you cant do that with Oghmirs, so Oghmir parries up, and you cant hit him, think of the Minotaur King, and his huge hitbox, there can be 15 people around him dpsing him, imagine if he was size of an Oghmir, 4-5 people tops would be able to surround him and DPS him, if even that. Magic is harder to hit on them. bows even tho weak are easy af to hit on Thursars, who in turn are even LESS tanky than Oghmirs? Height is often preferred in smaller numbers, even though it costs at tribute points, imagine if footies drank potions to reduce their STR or CON to lowest amount without any goal of gaining other stats, merely reducing the stat. Will be ignored as its hard to calculate.
And finally we get to dmg reduction/eHP gain from Towershields that are exclusive to Oghmirs because of the weight nerf (bad nerf)
Towershields on Oghmirs, because of their small stature, cower about 40% of the hitbox, however if Oghmir isnt surrounded in every side, and even then theres a tricko, they can decide to parry one side and manouver their character to equipment hit EVERY SINGLE hit that goes through that parry, and just back off, tanking massive amounts of dmg and barely any hit will be non equipment hit, if Oghmir turtles properly. Now if they do get surrounded, they can block up, because as I previously mentioned, you cannot left attack an Oghmir thats surrounded in every side because of how small their hitbox is so you'd just hit your teammates, Im not arguing if you should or shouldnt surround, or not surround, IM just saying what will happen if they get surrounded, they still have options. Shields absorb about 30% of blunt, and Ill just say it, most of other dmg, like 70%, its negligible. So lets say equipment hits are 50%, and thats generous, and lets round it to 50% overall reduction in melee dmg to Oghmirs. We wind up at 33% increase in eHP against melee. Even human fatmages with akh bond are way tankier than a Thursar due to towershield, a mage tankier than the second tankiest footie class, terrible balance.
So let's calculate - Thursar vs Oghmir, same build, best clades, best skills after just a 2 minute fight
Since Thursars and Oghmirs have about same HP, max for both is 216 stout, I'll round it at 200, we will use 6.5 direct healing potions as an example, guy with lifesteal will heal 50, which is very generous (means he managed to go crazy and deal 200 dmg in 25 seconds)
Thursars - 200(start HP) + 130 (20 thirst 6.5 UI pot) +50 (lifesteal)+ 60(styg) = 440 eHP
Oghmirs - 200(start HP) + 195 (30 thirst 6.5 UI pot) + 200 (pipe on cooldown 50x4) + 33% (towershields) = 791 eHP.
This is EXCLUDING hitbox which is massive, and excluding adamant vs thick skin
791 is 180% of 440, so Oghmirs are almost twice as tanky as Thursars in terms of eHP over just a 2 minute fight (goes even higher over longer fights) and at 3 minute mark, they get over twice as tanky due to pipes and another pot rotation.
We established previously that Thursars deal 8% more dmg than Oghmirs. And now we get to tankiness part where Oghmirs are 80% more tanky than Thursars, And this proves my original point:
Oghmirs are outliers at what they do, much more than Thursars are the outliers at what they do.
8% vs 80%
Now a list of some of the arguments that may come in here:
"But Thursars are faster" - Thursars are less than 1% faster 419 vs 415, if you change up the Thursar build, of course there are faster Thursar builds, but Oghmirs can also opt for faster builds, we have an Oghmir in our guild that goes 424 speed and is still way tankier than Thursars, at least 70%. So there you go. Any speed diff between all clades but Veelas is negligible in front of a 80% tankiness increase, thats like 5 akh bonds.
"But Thursar dmg clades" - they last 10 and 15 seconds and give increase of 10% and 6% dmg respectively, at most they will bring about 2% more dmg over 2 minutes, if dmg is averaged, which we are doing now.
"But situationally that dmg increase of Thursars may help kill someone that would otherwise survive and kill someone else" - Those are situations, obviously I cannot talk about every possible option, but Oghmirs survivability will make them survive and kill someone/hold off a team 10x more than Thursars 5 more dmg per hit will kill someone,
"No actually, the dmg Thursars do isnt 8% higher, but 8,04% higher, and Oghmir pipe has 3 second animation, so its not 30 seconds, but 33" - If you find any math error, that would not make you go "Yeah this is balanced" then dont say it. IDC if pipes heal for 48 on average due to a bug. As we have an 80% disbalance, not 3%. I rounded up many things for calculation.
"Well damage is more important than eHP" - Why? And is that why enough to justify damage being 10x more important?
And now a rant about communities perception of Thursars: Thursars are banned in multiple high level guilds, they are discouraged otherwise. On discord, last month, Thursars being banned is spoken about 3 times. Discord trolls have started a meme of "nerf thursars" because because I was pushing the discussion. These should be ignored, Henrik, not every push back is a push back worth considering. Meta is known, I gave you the math and the arguments, a person can't come in, say "no" and expect the same treatment.
Thank you for reading, and remember - buff Thursars.
I forgot one argument that may be brought up, and its "22% dmg rings increase dmg bonus to ungodly amounts" which isnt true. 134+(22% of 134) is how its calculated, not 22% of 100, which some people expect, so thats where that myth came from. If same trinkets, Thursars will always lead by just 8%, compared to 80% Oghmir tankiness.
Firstly, I will draw out the main point, the reason Thursars are the worst, and Oghmirs are the best clade then I will prove it.
Oghmirs are outliers at what they do, much more than Thursars are the outliers at what they do.
I hear it so often, and rightfully so, its a common RPG archetype between classes, that "Oghmirs are tanks, while Thursars are damage" and while this is true, its just true to an extend, and the extend will be a big talking point here, in this game Thursars damage bonus over Oghmirs is VERY negligible compared to Oghmirs tankiness compared to that of Thursars.
People see 24 vs 34 dmg bonus and think "Oh, so Thursars have 40% higher dmg bonus than Oghmirs, that so much!" forgetting what damage bonus actually is, a bonus, on top of 100, so its 124 vs 134, which makes it only a bit less than 8% total dmg. Which means, and I bring this out a lot if an Oghmir does 30 dmg, Thursar will do 32.
However Oghmirs are TRULY much tankier than Thursars:
A comparison of Oghmir Pipes vs Styganthrope - Pipes are 100 HP per minute, 50 HP every 30 seconds, with no negatives (blood kua) and Styg is 30 HP per minute (passive regen is its own thing and gives 10, 40-10=30) costs 100 primary points and has a penalty of 20% healing from all other sources. This is a massive disbalance, with just 2 clades we established Oghmirs heal 3.33x more per minute, get 100 primaries free AND heal for 25% more from all other sources (Thursars are at 80%, Oghmirs at 100%, its 25%)
Lifesteal is also bad - Lifesteal heals 25% of dmg dealt for 25 seconds and has a 2 and a half minute cooldown, we established pipes heal for 100 per minute, and now we will focus on thirst more, Oghmirs start with 50% larger potions, on their first pot, or second, depending on how they manage it, Oghmirs will have an average of 65 more HP gained from pots (average 6.5 heal pot) compared to Thursars if both also have 100 pot utilization, to counter that with lifesteal a Thursar would have to deal a whopping 260 damage in a span of 25 seconds, which is near impossible as it would mean you deal an average of 3120 DMG in a 5 minute fight. Oghmirs again, just like pipes get a consistent free heal thats also bigger.
Adamant vs Thick Skin - While adamant seems good on paper, and I myself went "Oh at least we get something good" the first time I read it, when I actually thought a bit more and compared the 2, the Thursar clade AGAIN, comes out as the worst - Adamant gives you 10% melee defence. Armor past steel and defensive stances flat dmg reduction that stacks, so Oghmirs get -6 dmg flat dmg reduction on slash and pierce, meaning that any attack that would deal 12 is HALVED, meaning reduced by 50% (adamant is 10%), those attacks happen very often on Oghimrs in a teamfight, swords and spears barely hurt them, doing 10s in as a non mace user, and even as a mace user against towershields. For adamant to outdo thick skin, an attack has to be 35+. Next point however completely closes the debate and its - Thursar clade also has a negative - it adds 10% more magic dmg at least 66% of the time if you spam it AND reduces your healing recieved from magic at least 66% of the time if you spam it, and during the active button, adamant actually INCREASES your dmg recieved from meele by 10% - making it never a consistent tanking tool, and another situational thing. Due to small difference in both, they will be ignored as they are hard to calculate.
Thursars have much larger hitbox - Thursars are much bigger than Oghmirs due to "height" stat that is, in my opinion underpowered and here's why: It does not give enough HP to offset hitbox size gain. Kallards and Thursars are the worst teamfighting clades, not just randomly, but because they offer nothing but a bit higher dmg, but then their hitbox is just 2x that of an Oghmir, overheads are easy to hit, you can hit them from side to side even when your teammates are grouping on them, you cant do that with Oghmirs, so Oghmir parries up, and you cant hit him, think of the Minotaur King, and his huge hitbox, there can be 15 people around him dpsing him, imagine if he was size of an Oghmir, 4-5 people tops would be able to surround him and DPS him, if even that. Magic is harder to hit on them. bows even tho weak are easy af to hit on Thursars, who in turn are even LESS tanky than Oghmirs? Height is often preferred in smaller numbers, even though it costs at tribute points, imagine if footies drank potions to reduce their STR or CON to lowest amount without any goal of gaining other stats, merely reducing the stat. Will be ignored as its hard to calculate.
And finally we get to dmg reduction/eHP gain from Towershields that are exclusive to Oghmirs because of the weight nerf (bad nerf)
Towershields on Oghmirs, because of their small stature, cower about 40% of the hitbox, however if Oghmir isnt surrounded in every side, and even then theres a tricko, they can decide to parry one side and manouver their character to equipment hit EVERY SINGLE hit that goes through that parry, and just back off, tanking massive amounts of dmg and barely any hit will be non equipment hit, if Oghmir turtles properly. Now if they do get surrounded, they can block up, because as I previously mentioned, you cannot left attack an Oghmir thats surrounded in every side because of how small their hitbox is so you'd just hit your teammates, Im not arguing if you should or shouldnt surround, or not surround, IM just saying what will happen if they get surrounded, they still have options. Shields absorb about 30% of blunt, and Ill just say it, most of other dmg, like 70%, its negligible. So lets say equipment hits are 50%, and thats generous, and lets round it to 50% overall reduction in melee dmg to Oghmirs. We wind up at 33% increase in eHP against melee. Even human fatmages with akh bond are way tankier than a Thursar due to towershield, a mage tankier than the second tankiest footie class, terrible balance.
So let's calculate - Thursar vs Oghmir, same build, best clades, best skills after just a 2 minute fight
Since Thursars and Oghmirs have about same HP, max for both is 216 stout, I'll round it at 200, we will use 6.5 direct healing potions as an example, guy with lifesteal will heal 50, which is very generous (means he managed to go crazy and deal 200 dmg in 25 seconds)
Thursars - 200(start HP) + 130 (20 thirst 6.5 UI pot) +50 (lifesteal)+ 60(styg) = 440 eHP
Oghmirs - 200(start HP) + 195 (30 thirst 6.5 UI pot) + 200 (pipe on cooldown 50x4) + 33% (towershields) = 791 eHP.
This is EXCLUDING hitbox which is massive, and excluding adamant vs thick skin
791 is 180% of 440, so Oghmirs are almost twice as tanky as Thursars in terms of eHP over just a 2 minute fight (goes even higher over longer fights) and at 3 minute mark, they get over twice as tanky due to pipes and another pot rotation.
We established previously that Thursars deal 8% more dmg than Oghmirs. And now we get to tankiness part where Oghmirs are 80% more tanky than Thursars, And this proves my original point:
Oghmirs are outliers at what they do, much more than Thursars are the outliers at what they do.
8% vs 80%
Now a list of some of the arguments that may come in here:
"But Thursars are faster" - Thursars are less than 1% faster 419 vs 415, if you change up the Thursar build, of course there are faster Thursar builds, but Oghmirs can also opt for faster builds, we have an Oghmir in our guild that goes 424 speed and is still way tankier than Thursars, at least 70%. So there you go. Any speed diff between all clades but Veelas is negligible in front of a 80% tankiness increase, thats like 5 akh bonds.
"But Thursar dmg clades" - they last 10 and 15 seconds and give increase of 10% and 6% dmg respectively, at most they will bring about 2% more dmg over 2 minutes, if dmg is averaged, which we are doing now.
"But situationally that dmg increase of Thursars may help kill someone that would otherwise survive and kill someone else" - Those are situations, obviously I cannot talk about every possible option, but Oghmirs survivability will make them survive and kill someone/hold off a team 10x more than Thursars 5 more dmg per hit will kill someone,
"No actually, the dmg Thursars do isnt 8% higher, but 8,04% higher, and Oghmir pipe has 3 second animation, so its not 30 seconds, but 33" - If you find any math error, that would not make you go "Yeah this is balanced" then dont say it. IDC if pipes heal for 48 on average due to a bug. As we have an 80% disbalance, not 3%. I rounded up many things for calculation.
"Well damage is more important than eHP" - Why? And is that why enough to justify damage being 10x more important?
And now a rant about communities perception of Thursars: Thursars are banned in multiple high level guilds, they are discouraged otherwise. On discord, last month, Thursars being banned is spoken about 3 times. Discord trolls have started a meme of "nerf thursars" because because I was pushing the discussion. These should be ignored, Henrik, not every push back is a push back worth considering. Meta is known, I gave you the math and the arguments, a person can't come in, say "no" and expect the same treatment.
Thank you for reading, and remember - buff Thursars.
I forgot one argument that may be brought up, and its "22% dmg rings increase dmg bonus to ungodly amounts" which isnt true. 134+(22% of 134) is how its calculated, not 22% of 100, which some people expect, so thats where that myth came from. If same trinkets, Thursars will always lead by just 8%, compared to 80% Oghmir tankiness.
