Current state of footfighting meta, a focus on Oghmirs and Thursars

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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In this post I will focus on overall usefulness of Oghmirs compared to Thursars


Firstly, I will draw out the main point, the reason Thursars are the worst, and Oghmirs are the best clade then I will prove it.

Oghmirs are outliers at what they do, much more than Thursars are the outliers at what they do.


I hear it so often, and rightfully so, its a common RPG archetype between classes, that "Oghmirs are tanks, while Thursars are damage" and while this is true, its just true to an extend, and the extend will be a big talking point here, in this game Thursars damage bonus over Oghmirs is VERY negligible compared to Oghmirs tankiness compared to that of Thursars.

People see 24 vs 34 dmg bonus and think "Oh, so Thursars have 40% higher dmg bonus than Oghmirs, that so much!" forgetting what damage bonus actually is, a bonus, on top of 100, so its 124 vs 134, which makes it only a bit less than 8% total dmg. Which means, and I bring this out a lot if an Oghmir does 30 dmg, Thursar will do 32.

However Oghmirs are TRULY much tankier than Thursars:

A comparison of Oghmir Pipes vs Styganthrope
- Pipes are 100 HP per minute, 50 HP every 30 seconds, with no negatives (blood kua) and Styg is 30 HP per minute (passive regen is its own thing and gives 10, 40-10=30) costs 100 primary points and has a penalty of 20% healing from all other sources. This is a massive disbalance, with just 2 clades we established Oghmirs heal 3.33x more per minute, get 100 primaries free AND heal for 25% more from all other sources (Thursars are at 80%, Oghmirs at 100%, its 25%)

Lifesteal is also bad - Lifesteal heals 25% of dmg dealt for 25 seconds and has a 2 and a half minute cooldown, we established pipes heal for 100 per minute, and now we will focus on thirst more, Oghmirs start with 50% larger potions, on their first pot, or second, depending on how they manage it, Oghmirs will have an average of 65 more HP gained from pots (average 6.5 heal pot) compared to Thursars if both also have 100 pot utilization, to counter that with lifesteal a Thursar would have to deal a whopping 260 damage in a span of 25 seconds, which is near impossible as it would mean you deal an average of 3120 DMG in a 5 minute fight. Oghmirs again, just like pipes get a consistent free heal thats also bigger.

Adamant vs Thick Skin - While adamant seems good on paper, and I myself went "Oh at least we get something good" the first time I read it, when I actually thought a bit more and compared the 2, the Thursar clade AGAIN, comes out as the worst - Adamant gives you 10% melee defence. Armor past steel and defensive stances flat dmg reduction that stacks, so Oghmirs get -6 dmg flat dmg reduction on slash and pierce, meaning that any attack that would deal 12 is HALVED, meaning reduced by 50% (adamant is 10%), those attacks happen very often on Oghimrs in a teamfight, swords and spears barely hurt them, doing 10s in as a non mace user, and even as a mace user against towershields. For adamant to outdo thick skin, an attack has to be 35+. Next point however completely closes the debate and its - Thursar clade also has a negative - it adds 10% more magic dmg at least 66% of the time if you spam it AND reduces your healing recieved from magic at least 66% of the time if you spam it, and during the active button, adamant actually INCREASES your dmg recieved from meele by 10% - making it never a consistent tanking tool, and another situational thing. Due to small difference in both, they will be ignored as they are hard to calculate.

Thursars have much larger hitbox
- Thursars are much bigger than Oghmirs due to "height" stat that is, in my opinion underpowered and here's why: It does not give enough HP to offset hitbox size gain. Kallards and Thursars are the worst teamfighting clades, not just randomly, but because they offer nothing but a bit higher dmg, but then their hitbox is just 2x that of an Oghmir, overheads are easy to hit, you can hit them from side to side even when your teammates are grouping on them, you cant do that with Oghmirs, so Oghmir parries up, and you cant hit him, think of the Minotaur King, and his huge hitbox, there can be 15 people around him dpsing him, imagine if he was size of an Oghmir, 4-5 people tops would be able to surround him and DPS him, if even that. Magic is harder to hit on them. bows even tho weak are easy af to hit on Thursars, who in turn are even LESS tanky than Oghmirs? Height is often preferred in smaller numbers, even though it costs at tribute points, imagine if footies drank potions to reduce their STR or CON to lowest amount without any goal of gaining other stats, merely reducing the stat. Will be ignored as its hard to calculate.

And finally we get to dmg reduction/eHP gain from Towershields that are exclusive to Oghmirs because of the weight nerf (bad nerf)

Towershields
on Oghmirs, because of their small stature, cower about 40% of the hitbox, however if Oghmir isnt surrounded in every side, and even then theres a tricko, they can decide to parry one side and manouver their character to equipment hit EVERY SINGLE hit that goes through that parry, and just back off, tanking massive amounts of dmg and barely any hit will be non equipment hit, if Oghmir turtles properly. Now if they do get surrounded, they can block up, because as I previously mentioned, you cannot left attack an Oghmir thats surrounded in every side because of how small their hitbox is so you'd just hit your teammates, Im not arguing if you should or shouldnt surround, or not surround, IM just saying what will happen if they get surrounded, they still have options. Shields absorb about 30% of blunt, and Ill just say it, most of other dmg, like 70%, its negligible. So lets say equipment hits are 50%, and thats generous, and lets round it to 50% overall reduction in melee dmg to Oghmirs. We wind up at 33% increase in eHP against melee. Even human fatmages with akh bond are way tankier than a Thursar due to towershield, a mage tankier than the second tankiest footie class, terrible balance.

So let's calculate - Thursar vs Oghmir, same build, best clades, best skills after just a 2 minute fight

Since Thursars and Oghmirs have about same HP, max for both is 216 stout, I'll round it at 200, we will use 6.5 direct healing potions as an example, guy with lifesteal will heal 50, which is very generous (means he managed to go crazy and deal 200 dmg in 25 seconds)

Thursars - 200(start HP) + 130 (20 thirst 6.5 UI pot) +50 (lifesteal)+ 60(styg) = 440 eHP

Oghmirs - 200(start HP) + 195 (30 thirst 6.5 UI pot) + 200 (pipe on cooldown 50x4) + 33% (towershields) = 791 eHP.


This is EXCLUDING hitbox which is massive, and excluding adamant vs thick skin

791 is 180% of 440, so Oghmirs are almost twice as tanky as Thursars in terms of eHP over just a 2 minute fight (goes even higher over longer fights) and at 3 minute mark, they get over twice as tanky due to pipes and another pot rotation.

We established previously that Thursars deal 8% more dmg than Oghmirs. And now we get to tankiness part where Oghmirs are 80% more tanky than Thursars, And this proves my original point:

Oghmirs are outliers at what they do, much more than Thursars are the outliers at what they do.

8% vs 80%



Now a list of some of the arguments that may come in here:

"But Thursars are faster" - Thursars are less than 1% faster 419 vs 415, if you change up the Thursar build, of course there are faster Thursar builds, but Oghmirs can also opt for faster builds, we have an Oghmir in our guild that goes 424 speed and is still way tankier than Thursars, at least 70%. So there you go. Any speed diff between all clades but Veelas is negligible in front of a 80% tankiness increase, thats like 5 akh bonds.

"But Thursar dmg clades" - they last 10 and 15 seconds and give increase of 10% and 6% dmg respectively, at most they will bring about 2% more dmg over 2 minutes, if dmg is averaged, which we are doing now.

"But situationally that dmg increase of Thursars may help kill someone that would otherwise survive and kill someone else" - Those are situations, obviously I cannot talk about every possible option, but Oghmirs survivability will make them survive and kill someone/hold off a team 10x more than Thursars 5 more dmg per hit will kill someone,

"No actually, the dmg Thursars do isnt 8% higher, but 8,04% higher, and Oghmir pipe has 3 second animation, so its not 30 seconds, but 33" - If you find any math error, that would not make you go "Yeah this is balanced" then dont say it. IDC if pipes heal for 48 on average due to a bug. As we have an 80% disbalance, not 3%. I rounded up many things for calculation.

"Well damage is more important than eHP" -
Why? And is that why enough to justify damage being 10x more important?


And now a rant about communities perception of Thursars: Thursars are banned in multiple high level guilds, they are discouraged otherwise. On discord, last month, Thursars being banned is spoken about 3 times. Discord trolls have started a meme of "nerf thursars" because because I was pushing the discussion. These should be ignored, Henrik, not every push back is a push back worth considering. Meta is known, I gave you the math and the arguments, a person can't come in, say "no" and expect the same treatment.



Thank you for reading, and remember - buff Thursars.

I forgot one argument that may be brought up, and its "22% dmg rings increase dmg bonus to ungodly amounts" which isnt true. 134+(22% of 134) is how its calculated, not 22% of 100, which some people expect, so thats where that myth came from. If same trinkets, Thursars will always lead by just 8%, compared to 80% Oghmir tankiness.
 

ElPerro

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Thats a very nice thoughtful logical argument. The problem is Henrik doesnt do balance according to logic but emotions. Anything that was meta in MO1 like Thursars and Poleswords will be forever relegated to shit status in MO2
 

Xronim

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Won't lie, the balance will forever be a meme in both mortals, and there is still alot of overlap (Alvarin, light blunt weps being meta still, and humans being doggy outside of 1 specific build, material stats being the same in both).

SV is afraid to buff Thursars because they wanted Oghmir to shine as the physical combat race this time around. There were so many chances to nerf and balance stuff in beta, but they did nothing. Porting over the mo1 statcaps per race but making the minimal dex 92 just made Oghmir pretty much the meta pick over Thursar because theyre the bigger ball of stats, even if clade gifts were not in the game at all.

Clade gifts were very poorly thought out and causes so much more imbalance than stat caps alone did, on top of Oghmir having practically the same speed as Thursars and Humans because of the dex adjustment from mo1.

The only hope that wouldve been there for anything wouldve been a complete race rebalance both in statcaps and much less impactful clade gifts would've made the game better overall.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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Thats a very nice thoughtful logical argument. The problem is Henrik doesnt do balance according to logic but emotions. Anything that was meta in MO1 like Thursars and Poleswords will be forever relegated to shit status in MO2
Thank you, much appriciated. I hope for Thursars buffs and I hope they are big. Henrik said himself something in the lines of "We get many buff suggestions but then not everyone will be happy, we had 90% agree on daggers, so we nerfed them". You cant wait for 90% of the community to agree on a good balance patch, but you will lose players who wont complain much due to inbalances, I had many friends who left as soon as they realized the massive disbalance.

Won't lie, the balance will forever be a meme in both mortals, and there is still alot of overlap (Alvarin, light blunt weps being meta still, and humans being doggy outside of 1 specific build, material stats being the same in both).

SV is afraid to buff Thursars because they wanted Oghmir to shine as the physical combat race this time around. There were so many chances to nerf and balance stuff in beta, but they did nothing. Porting over the mo1 statcaps per race but making the minimal dex 92 just made Oghmir pretty much the meta pick over Thursar because theyre the bigger ball of stats, even if clade gifts were not in the game at all.

Clade gifts were very poorly thought out and causes so much more imbalance than stat caps alone did, on top of Oghmir having practically the same speed as Thursars and Humans because of the dex adjustment from mo1.

The only hope that wouldve been there for anything wouldve been a complete race rebalance both in statcaps and much less impactful clade gifts would've made the game better overall.
I agree. But I think balance changes would be very easy. Its funny, maybe a lucky coincidence, but they left Oghmirs just a tad bit slower than Thursars, so people who ignore numbers will just say "well Oghmirs are slow" ignoring they are less than 1% slower. But again, balance is easy - massive pipe nerf in cooldown, height buffed to 0.66 HP per point, thirst 10 goes to 5 and styg has no 20% healing negative, thats about it.
 

Teknique

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Thank you, much appriciated. I hope for Thursars buffs and I hope they are big. Henrik said himself something in the lines of "We get many buff suggestions but then not everyone will be happy, we had 90% agree on daggers, so we nerfed them". You cant wait for 90% of the community to agree on a good balance patch, but you will lose players who wont complain much due to inbalances, I had many friends who left as soon as they realized the massive disbalance.
Yeah pretty much how the man thinks. Unable to actually comprehend anything for himself. If “90%” of the community complains about something he MIGHT notice it.
 
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Hodo

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Won't lie, the balance will forever be a meme in both mortals, and there is still alot of overlap (Alvarin, light blunt weps being meta still, and humans being doggy outside of 1 specific build, material stats being the same in both).

SV is afraid to buff Thursars because they wanted Oghmir to shine as the physical combat race this time around. There were so many chances to nerf and balance stuff in beta, but they did nothing. Porting over the mo1 statcaps per race but making the minimal dex 92 just made Oghmir pretty much the meta pick over Thursar because theyre the bigger ball of stats, even if clade gifts were not in the game at all.

Clade gifts were very poorly thought out and causes so much more imbalance than stat caps alone did, on top of Oghmir having practically the same speed as Thursars and Humans because of the dex adjustment from mo1.

The only hope that wouldve been there for anything wouldve been a complete race rebalance both in statcaps and much less impactful clade gifts would've made the game better overall.

If we wanted balance there would only be humans and everyone would have the same 100 attribute max in every stat, with 450 points to spend.
 

Xronim

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If we wanted balance there would only be humans and everyone would have the same 100 attribute max in every stat, with 450 points to spend.
I've heard the mo1 closed beta was like that actually, the only difference was you had some free points in different skills between races. I dunno if it is a hot take but id take cosmetic or like 1% differences over the way it is for races.
 
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Iloros

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If we wanted balance there would only be humans and everyone would have the same 100 attribute max in every stat, with 450 points to spend.
You can absolutely have both balance and a lot of difference. 100% balance is not what Im asking for, but 45-55 difference at most, what we have here is way beyond that. Theres games with 150 characters that have balance between 47-53 win rate. They buff/nerf outliers every week almost. MO2 can get there easily because there is only 4 races. Literally just buff Thursars, nerf Oghmirs and nerf tactician while buffing humans a bit and nerf Veelas % clade and just tie it in with weight class of Veelas. Because as someone said, Bulging Sheevra is faster than khurites.
 

Midas

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If we wanted balance there would only be humans and everyone would have the same 100 attribute max in every stat, with 450 points to spend.
im not saying there shouldnt be a slight difference but at the moment the the differences are huge in those areas. Like veela speed is so far ahead of everything its rediculous. honestly the only way to balance it properly would be like you said having clade be cosmetic and then turning the clade trees all into one to let people pick the path they wish to play.
 
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Iloros

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I've heard the mo1 closed beta was like that actually, the only difference was you had some free points in different skills between races. I dunno if it is a hot take but id take cosmetic or like 1% differences over the way it is for races.
And this says volumes to anyone whos listening - game is so inbalanced, you would rather there is no classes at all.
im not saying there shouldnt be a slight difference but at the moment the the differences are huge in those areas. Like veela speed is so far ahead of everything its rediculous. honestly the only way to balance it properly would be like you said having clade be cosmetic and then turning the clade trees all into one to let people pick the path they wish to play.
I think best course is to just buff weaker clades and nerf the stronger ones. Thats what games do with 150 characters, this one can do it with 4.
 
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MoghedmirOnline

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Let's break down the arguments made in favor of Oghmirs over Thursars..

1. **Damage Bonus Comparison:**
- The argument here is that Thursars only have an 8% higher damage bonus compared to Oghmirs when considering the bonus on top of 100. The focus is on the relative insignificance of this difference.

**Rebuttal:**
- While the percentage increase might seem small, in practical terms, it can have a significant impact on the outcome of battles, especially when dealing damage over time. Every point of damage matters, and even a small increase can be decisive in certain situations.

2. **Tankiness Comparison:**
- The claim is that Oghmirs are much tankier than Thursars, citing the comparison of healing abilities, lifesteal, and the effectiveness of towershields.

**Rebuttal:**
- Tankiness is not the sole metric for evaluating the effectiveness of a class. Thursars may trade some tankiness for higher mobility, and in certain scenarios, mobility can be more valuable. Additionally, the impact of healing abilities and shields can vary based on playstyle and team composition.

3. **Hitbox Size:**
- The argument is that Thursars have a larger hitbox, making them more vulnerable in team fights compared to Oghmirs.

**Rebuttal:**
- While hitbox size is a factor, it doesn't necessarily make Thursars inferior. The larger hitbox can be compensated by agility and evasive maneuvers. Moreover, a larger hitbox can be an advantage in certain situations, such as drawing attention away from more vulnerable teammates.

4. **Speed Comparison:**
- The claim is that the speed difference between Oghmirs and Thursars is negligible and that Oghmirs can also opt for faster builds.

**Rebuttal:**
- Speed can be a crucial factor in both offensive and defensive strategies. Even a small speed advantage can influence the positioning and timing of engagements. It's not just about the numerical difference but how it translates into strategic advantages during battles.

5. **Clade Abilities:**
- The argument dismisses the significance of clade abilities such as the damage increase from Thursar clades.

**Rebuttal:**
- Clade abilities can provide strategic advantages that go beyond raw damage numbers. A well-timed clade ability can turn the tide of a battle or secure a critical objective. Dismissing their importance oversimplifies the complexity of gameplay dynamics.

6. **Community Perception:**
- The post mentions that some high-level guilds ban Thursars, and there is a perception of imbalance.

**Rebuttal:**
- Community perception is subjective and can be influenced by various factors. It's important to consider a broader range of opinions and experiences. Implementing changes based solely on a vocal minority can lead to unintended consequences.

In conclusion, while the argument presents a detailed analysis of Oghmirs' strengths, it's essential to recognize that balance in a game involves trade-offs and different classes serving different roles. Thursars may excel in certain scenarios and playstyles, and the perceived imbalance might be a matter of personal preference or playstyle bias. Ongoing observation, feedback, and analysis from a diverse player base are crucial for making informed adjustments to game balance.
 
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Teknique

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3. **Hitbox Size:**
- The argument is that Thursars have a larger hitbox, making them more vulnerable in team fights compared to Oghmirs.

**Rebuttal:**
- While hitbox size is a factor, it doesn't necessarily make Thursars inferior. The larger hitbox can be compensated by agility and evasive maneuvers. Moreover, a larger hitbox can be an advantage in certain situations, such as drawing attention away from more vulnerable teammates.
**Rebuttal:** LOL
 
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MoghedmirOnline

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**Rebuttal:** LOL

The response "LOL" is not a valid rebuttal as it does not engage with the points made in the original argument or provide any substantive counterarguments. A valid rebuttal should address the specific claims made in the original statement and offer reasoned responses or counterpoints. Responding with "LOL" dismisses the argument without providing any substantial analysis or counterargument, and it does not contribute to a meaningful discussion or debate.
 

Iloros

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Let's break down the arguments made in favor of Oghmirs over Thursars..

1. **Damage Bonus Comparison:**
- The argument here is that Thursars only have an 8% higher damage bonus compared to Oghmirs when considering the bonus on top of 100. The focus is on the relative insignificance of this difference.

**Rebuttal:**
- While the percentage increase might seem small, in practical terms, it can have a significant impact on the outcome of battles, especially when dealing damage over time. Every point of damage matters, and even a small increase can be decisive in certain situations.

2. **Tankiness Comparison:**
- The claim is that Oghmirs are much tankier than Thursars, citing the comparison of healing abilities, lifesteal, and the effectiveness of towershields.

**Rebuttal:**
- Tankiness is not the sole metric for evaluating the effectiveness of a class. Thursars may trade some tankiness for higher mobility, and in certain scenarios, mobility can be more valuable. Additionally, the impact of healing abilities and shields can vary based on playstyle and team composition.

3. **Hitbox Size:**
- The argument is that Thursars have a larger hitbox, making them more vulnerable in team fights compared to Oghmirs.

**Rebuttal:**
- While hitbox size is a factor, it doesn't necessarily make Thursars inferior. The larger hitbox can be compensated by agility and evasive maneuvers. Moreover, a larger hitbox can be an advantage in certain situations, such as drawing attention away from more vulnerable teammates.

4. **Speed Comparison:**
- The claim is that the speed difference between Oghmirs and Thursars is negligible and that Oghmirs can also opt for faster builds.

**Rebuttal:**
- Speed can be a crucial factor in both offensive and defensive strategies. Even a small speed advantage can influence the positioning and timing of engagements. It's not just about the numerical difference but how it translates into strategic advantages during battles.

5. **Clade Abilities:**
- The argument dismisses the significance of clade abilities such as the damage increase from Thursar clades.

**Rebuttal:**
- Clade abilities can provide strategic advantages that go beyond raw damage numbers. A well-timed clade ability can turn the tide of a battle or secure a critical objective. Dismissing their importance oversimplifies the complexity of gameplay dynamics.

6. **Community Perception:**
- The post mentions that some high-level guilds ban Thursars, and there is a perception of imbalance.

**Rebuttal:**
- Community perception is subjective and can be influenced by various factors. It's important to consider a broader range of opinions and experiences. Implementing changes based solely on a vocal minority can lead to unintended consequences.

In conclusion, while the argument presents a detailed analysis of Oghmirs' strengths, it's essential to recognize that balance in a game involves trade-offs and different classes serving different roles. Thursars may excel in certain scenarios and playstyles, and the perceived imbalance might be a matter of personal preference or playstyle bias. Ongoing observation, feedback, and analysis from a diverse player base are crucial for making informed adjustments to game balance.
Sophistry and nothing more. You used "situations tho" argument that I predicted. Lets repeat it again: Oghmirs 791 HP 124 dmg 415 speed /// Thursars 440 HP 134 dmg 419 speed - 80% HP increase will be more useful than sub 1% speed and 8% increase in V A S T majority of situations. Noone said "effectivness in teamfights is calculated solely by HP" and the fact that you tried any of these arguments, which were adressed tells me you havent even read/remembered the full post or are a total sophist (probably), I even adressed your "situations tho" argument. Its about the EXTEND (as the post already says). Its about the numbers You use "415 vs 419" speed and then say stuff like "speed may be more useful than this that" in how many teamfights do you think 0.8% speed is gonna be more useful than 80% eHP, thats a 100x difference, is speed 100x times more useful than HP? Is dmg 10x? If so explain how. (dont bring up situations as I can bring up situations where HP guy does more dmg and soaks more dmg. And I will emphasize, if numbers were balanced, and Oghmirs were 20% tankier, while dealing 15% less dmg and having 2% less speed, game would be balanced. Oghmirs tank 80% more, Thursars deal 8% more dmg, 0.8% speed is negligible in a teamfight scenario.


Simply put, dmg has to be 10x as useful as tankiness, which it is not to close the line between Thrusars and Oghmirs. Its 50-50, and Oghmirs outtank Thursara by 80% while Thursars outdmg Oghmirs by just 8%.


P.S. What was that "size manouvering" "rebuttal" LMAO, manovering better with bigger size? Bigger hitbox good in aim based game? Lmao.

Let's break down the arguments made in favor of Oghmirs over Thursars..

1. **Damage Bonus Comparison:**
- The argument here is that Thursars only have an 8% higher damage bonus compared to Oghmirs when considering the bonus on top of 100. The focus is on the relative insignificance of this difference.

**Rebuttal:**
- While the percentage increase might seem small, in practical terms, it can have a significant impact on the outcome of battles, especially when dealing damage over time. Every point of damage matters, and even a small increase can be decisive in certain situations.

2. **Tankiness Comparison:**
- The claim is that Oghmirs are much tankier than Thursars, citing the comparison of healing abilities, lifesteal, and the effectiveness of towershields.

**Rebuttal:**
- Tankiness is not the sole metric for evaluating the effectiveness of a class. Thursars may trade some tankiness for higher mobility, and in certain scenarios, mobility can be more valuable. Additionally, the impact of healing abilities and shields can vary based on playstyle and team composition.

3. **Hitbox Size:**
- The argument is that Thursars have a larger hitbox, making them more vulnerable in team fights compared to Oghmirs.

**Rebuttal:**
- While hitbox size is a factor, it doesn't necessarily make Thursars inferior. The larger hitbox can be compensated by agility and evasive maneuvers. Moreover, a larger hitbox can be an advantage in certain situations, such as drawing attention away from more vulnerable teammates.

4. **Speed Comparison:**
- The claim is that the speed difference between Oghmirs and Thursars is negligible and that Oghmirs can also opt for faster builds.

**Rebuttal:**
- Speed can be a crucial factor in both offensive and defensive strategies. Even a small speed advantage can influence the positioning and timing of engagements. It's not just about the numerical difference but how it translates into strategic advantages during battles.

5. **Clade Abilities:**
- The argument dismisses the significance of clade abilities such as the damage increase from Thursar clades.

**Rebuttal:**
- Clade abilities can provide strategic advantages that go beyond raw damage numbers. A well-timed clade ability can turn the tide of a battle or secure a critical objective. Dismissing their importance oversimplifies the complexity of gameplay dynamics.

6. **Community Perception:**
- The post mentions that some high-level guilds ban Thursars, and there is a perception of imbalance.

**Rebuttal:**
- Community perception is subjective and can be influenced by various factors. It's important to consider a broader range of opinions and experiences. Implementing changes based solely on a vocal minority can lead to unintended consequences.

In conclusion, while the argument presents a detailed analysis of Oghmirs' strengths, it's essential to recognize that balance in a game involves trade-offs and different classes serving different roles. Thursars may excel in certain scenarios and playstyles, and the perceived imbalance might be a matter of personal preference or playstyle bias. Ongoing observation, feedback, and analysis from a diverse player base are crucial for making informed adjustments to game balance.
Also your conclusion is pretentious. You act like my post didnt compare weaknesses and strenghts. Everything you said was adressed in original post.

80% HP>8% dmg

Thats why guilds ban Thursars, they are a ball of stats with no intricate mechanics like humans and Veelas, but Oghmirs blatantly outstat them.
 

MoghedmirOnline

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Dec 21, 2023
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Sophistry and nothing more. You used "situations tho" argument that I predicted. Lets repeat it again: Oghmirs 791 HP 124 dmg 415 speed /// Thursars 440 HP 134 dmg 419 speed - 80% HP increase will be more useful than sub 1% speed and 8% increase in V A S T majority of situations. Noone said "effectivness in teamfights is calculated solely by HP" and the fact that you tried any of these arguments, which were adressed tells me you havent even read/remembered the full post or are a total sophist (probably), I even adressed your "situations tho" argument. Its about the EXTEND (as the post already says). Its about the numbers You use "415 vs 419" speed and then say stuff like "speed may be more useful than this that" in how many teamfights do you think 0.8% speed is gonna be more useful than 80% eHP, thats a 100x difference, is speed 100x times more useful than HP? Is dmg 10x? If so explain how. (dont bring up situations as I can bring up situations where HP guy does more dmg and soaks more dmg. And I will emphasize, if numbers were balanced, and Oghmirs were 20% tankier, while dealing 15% less dmg and having 2% less speed, game would be balanced. Oghmirs tank 80% more, Thursars deal 8% more dmg, 0.8% speed is negligible in a teamfight scenario.


Simply put, dmg has to be 10x as useful as tankiness, which it is not to close the line between Thrusars and Oghmirs. Its 50-50, and Oghmirs outtank Thursara by 80% while Thursars outdmg Oghmirs by just 8%.


P.S. What was that "size manouvering" "rebuttal" LMAO, manovering better with bigger size? Bigger hitbox good in aim based game? Lmao.
**Response:**
I appreciate your detailed and passionate articulation of the numerical disparities between Oghmirs and Thursars. It's evident that you place substantial emphasis on the sheer magnitude of the effective HP increase that Oghmirs boast, contrasting it with the seemingly marginal gains in speed and damage exhibited by Thursars. Your call for a deeper exploration of why we might be downplaying the advantages of increased damage and speed warrants a comprehensive response.

1. **Efficiency in Damage Output:**
- Let's delve into the realm of damage first. While the percentage increase in damage output for Thursars may appear modest, its impact becomes more pronounced in prolonged engagements. The sustained 8% damage advantage compounds over time, potentially leading to more eliminations, faster objective completions, and increased pressure on opponents.

- In a hypothetical scenario where both Oghmirs and Thursars engage in a protracted battle, the additional damage dealt by Thursars becomes a contributing factor in achieving quicker kills. Over the course of extended encounters, this can lead to a tangible advantage in controlling the pace of engagements and influencing the overall outcome.

2. **Significance of Speed:**
- Now, let's shift our focus to the minute speed differential of 4 points (419 vs. 415). On the surface, the sub-1% speed disparity might seem inconsequential, but its impact is more nuanced than a straightforward numerical comparison. In dynamic battles, especially those involving strategic positioning, pursuit, or evasion, this slight speed advantage can manifest in critical moments.

- The 0.8% speed advantage translates into quicker repositioning, enhanced kiting capabilities, and potentially superior engagement initiation. While this may not be as immediately apparent as the substantial HP increase, it introduces a layer of agility that can influence the ebb and flow of combat dynamics.

3. **Balancing Act:**
- It's crucial to recognize the delicate balance between tankiness, damage output, and speed in game design. A scenario where Oghmirs are 20% tankier, deal 15% less damage, and move 2% slower does indeed offer equilibrium on paper. However, game balance isn't solely achieved through symmetrical percentages.

- The intricate interplay of these factors contributes to the richness of strategic choices. The 80% increase in effective HP for Oghmirs signifies a tanky playstyle, while the 8% damage boost for Thursars aligns with a more aggressive approach. The differential in numbers is intentional, fostering diversity in gameplay styles and strategic preferences.

In essence, the intent here is not to downplay the significance of tankiness but to highlight the intricate dance between various attributes. Each percentage point contributes uniquely to the overall gaming experience, and the purported "negligible" gains in speed and damage for Thursars can, in fact, be pivotal in shaping the narrative of engagements.
 

Midas

Active member
Feb 25, 2022
245
138
43
**Response:**
I appreciate your detailed and passionate articulation of the numerical disparities between Oghmirs and Thursars. It's evident that you place substantial emphasis on the sheer magnitude of the effective HP increase that Oghmirs boast, contrasting it with the seemingly marginal gains in speed and damage exhibited by Thursars. Your call for a deeper exploration of why we might be downplaying the advantages of increased damage and speed warrants a comprehensive response.

1. **Efficiency in Damage Output:**
- Let's delve into the realm of damage first. While the percentage increase in damage output for Thursars may appear modest, its impact becomes more pronounced in prolonged engagements. The sustained 8% damage advantage compounds over time, potentially leading to more eliminations, faster objective completions, and increased pressure on opponents.

- In a hypothetical scenario where both Oghmirs and Thursars engage in a protracted battle, the additional damage dealt by Thursars becomes a contributing factor in achieving quicker kills. Over the course of extended encounters, this can lead to a tangible advantage in controlling the pace of engagements and influencing the overall outcome.

2. **Significance of Speed:**
- Now, let's shift our focus to the minute speed differential of 4 points (419 vs. 415). On the surface, the sub-1% speed disparity might seem inconsequential, but its impact is more nuanced than a straightforward numerical comparison. In dynamic battles, especially those involving strategic positioning, pursuit, or evasion, this slight speed advantage can manifest in critical moments.

- The 0.8% speed advantage translates into quicker repositioning, enhanced kiting capabilities, and potentially superior engagement initiation. While this may not be as immediately apparent as the substantial HP increase, it introduces a layer of agility that can influence the ebb and flow of combat dynamics.

3. **Balancing Act:**
- It's crucial to recognize the delicate balance between tankiness, damage output, and speed in game design. A scenario where Oghmirs are 20% tankier, deal 15% less damage, and move 2% slower does indeed offer equilibrium on paper. However, game balance isn't solely achieved through symmetrical percentages.

- The intricate interplay of these factors contributes to the richness of strategic choices. The 80% increase in effective HP for Oghmirs signifies a tanky playstyle, while the 8% damage boost for Thursars aligns with a more aggressive approach. The differential in numbers is intentional, fostering diversity in gameplay styles and strategic preferences.

In essence, the intent here is not to downplay the significance of tankiness but to highlight the intricate dance between various attributes. Each percentage point contributes uniquely to the overall gaming experience, and the purported "negligible" gains in speed and damage for Thursars can, in fact, be pivotal in shaping the narrative of engagements.
This is well said and exactly the reason things should be balanced around 1v1s.
 

Iloros

Member
Dec 14, 2023
53
22
8
**Response:**
I appreciate your detailed and passionate articulation of the numerical disparities between Oghmirs and Thursars. It's evident that you place substantial emphasis on the sheer magnitude of the effective HP increase that Oghmirs boast, contrasting it with the seemingly marginal gains in speed and damage exhibited by Thursars. Your call for a deeper exploration of why we might be downplaying the advantages of increased damage and speed warrants a comprehensive response.

1. **Efficiency in Damage Output:**
- Let's delve into the realm of damage first. While the percentage increase in damage output for Thursars may appear modest, its impact becomes more pronounced in prolonged engagements. The sustained 8% damage advantage compounds over time, potentially leading to more eliminations, faster objective completions, and increased pressure on opponents.

- In a hypothetical scenario where both Oghmirs and Thursars engage in a protracted battle, the additional damage dealt by Thursars becomes a contributing factor in achieving quicker kills. Over the course of extended encounters, this can lead to a tangible advantage in controlling the pace of engagements and influencing the overall outcome.

2. **Significance of Speed:**
- Now, let's shift our focus to the minute speed differential of 4 points (419 vs. 415). On the surface, the sub-1% speed disparity might seem inconsequential, but its impact is more nuanced than a straightforward numerical comparison. In dynamic battles, especially those involving strategic positioning, pursuit, or evasion, this slight speed advantage can manifest in critical moments.

- The 0.8% speed advantage translates into quicker repositioning, enhanced kiting capabilities, and potentially superior engagement initiation. While this may not be as immediately apparent as the substantial HP increase, it introduces a layer of agility that can influence the ebb and flow of combat dynamics.

3. **Balancing Act:**
- It's crucial to recognize the delicate balance between tankiness, damage output, and speed in game design. A scenario where Oghmirs are 20% tankier, deal 15% less damage, and move 2% slower does indeed offer equilibrium on paper. However, game balance isn't solely achieved through symmetrical percentages.

- The intricate interplay of these factors contributes to the richness of strategic choices. The 80% increase in effective HP for Oghmirs signifies a tanky playstyle, while the 8% damage boost for Thursars aligns with a more aggressive approach. The differential in numbers is intentional, fostering diversity in gameplay styles and strategic preferences.

In essence, the intent here is not to downplay the significance of tankiness but to highlight the intricate dance between various attributes. Each percentage point contributes uniquely to the overall gaming experience, and the purported "negligible" gains in speed and damage for Thursars can, in fact, be pivotal in shaping the narrative of engagements.
Ok, I will respond 1 by 1, since last few rebbutals of the rebbutals were seemingly lost in translation as you more or less repeated yourself more eloquently this time.

1. "8% adds up over time" yes, it does, but it will always be 8% and cannot be more. If Oghmir does 1000 dmg during a fight, Thursar will do 1080. eHP diff also stacks up during a fight, and does so 10x more than DMG does, so logically, unless you have an argument for why damage is 10 times more important than HP, which its tied to in my opinion, they counterbalance each other, you saying "dmg does this that" means nothing. You repeated yourself, or course damage adds up over time, guess what mate, its still 8%. And situations that can happen due to damage, can and will happen due to tankiness too. Oghmir with 80% more sustain might aswell do more damage during a fight because he will stay alive longer.

8% vs 80%, you need to prove that dmg is 10x as impactful in terms of usefulness in a teamfight, thats your only course of action.

2. You did the same thing with speed, you just said 0.8% speed, and then you described what speed does. Its 0.8%, Oghmir can stickyback a Thursar for like a minute straight and they have more stam that totally negates the speed, and even overrides it.

Same course of action, prove that speed is 100x more useful than HP during a teamfight, to prove 0.8% speed diff is comparable to 80% eHP diff. Dont just repeat yourself in a sophisticated way to grab some casuals attention. Everyone here knows speed is good for repositioning and kiting. Its still 0.8%, numbers exist for a reason.

3. You are incoherent to me in your last response, you went full on psycho, say something without saying anything mode. Percentages are crucial in balance. One class cannot be twice as tanky while dealing just 8% less damage.

Saying it all contributes to different gameplay, of course it does, you just repeated yourself thrice and called it rebuttal for everything.

This is like if we argued whos gonna win a boxing match Mike Tyson or a random farmer that weights half a kg more than Tyson, and as every response to Tysons superiority you said "While Tysons advantages in speed, strenght, tecnique, ferocity, toughness, stamina, endurance cannot be overlooked, farmer also weights 0.5 kg more, and even though you say 0.5kg is insignificant, weight can play an important factor in decision of a match between the two, as when farmer rests on Tyson it will tire him out more..." But its irrelevant dude, its such a small difference, compared to Tyson being 10x better at as important stuff as weight. We are not debating utility of damage vs eHP in a fight, we are debating utility of 80% eHP vs 8% dmt in a fight, so you give me an argument for why 8% dmg is as important as 80% eHP, or you have nothing.

This is well said and exactly the reason things should be balanced around 1v1s.
Is this sarcasm?
 
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Teknique

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2020
1,728
1,336
113
1. "8% adds up over time" yes, it does, but it will always be 8% and cannot be more. If Oghmir does 1000 dmg during a fight, Thursar will do 1080. eHP diff also stacks up during a fight, and does so 10x more than DMG does, so logically, unless you have an argument for why damage is 10 times more important than HP, which its tied to in my opinion, they counterbalance each other, you saying "dmg does this that" means nothing. You repeated yourself, or course damage adds up over time, guess what mate, its still 8%. And situations that can happen due to damage, can and will happen due to tankiness too. Oghmir with 80% more sustain might aswell do more damage during a fight because he will stay alive longer.
I think what hes trying to say, mind you I didn't waste my time reading it, is if that slight damage leads to a kill and that person is out of a fight then it compounds. But like you said the same thing applies to tankiness and the degree of tankiness is much greater than the damage.
 
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