Current state of footfighting meta, a focus on Oghmirs and Thursars

Midas

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Feb 25, 2022
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I think what hes trying to say, mind you I didn't waste my time reading it, is if that slight damage leads to a kill and that person is out of a fight then it compounds. But like you said the same thing applies to tankiness and the degree of tankiness is much greater than the damage.

minmaxed stats visual effect.

OG
st: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
dex: IIIIII
con: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
psy: IIIIIII
int: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

TH
st: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Dex: IIIIIIII
con: IIIIIIIIIIIII
psy: IIIIIII
int: III
 
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Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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I think what hes trying to say, mind you I didn't waste my time reading it, is if that slight damage leads to a kill and that person is out of a fight then it compounds. But like you said the same thing applies to tankiness and the degree of tankiness is much greater than the damage.
Yes, I understood what he said. What he said needs no saying, more damage, even 0.01% will obviously lead to someone dying in a certain scenario. My OG post predicted those types of comments, that ignore the comaprison. We arent arguing if 8% of dmg generally changes a fight, as that would be absurd, of course it does.

We are, as you said, comparing 80% to 8% and its not a comparison. I still stand by 0.8% speed diff being negligible. Its like mentioning 1 HP difference, negligible. Will it lead to diff outcomes once in a blue moon? Yes. But so will 0.01%, its about the extend.

minmaxed stats visual effect.

OG
st: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
dex: IIIIII
con: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
psy: IIIIIII
int: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

TH
st: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Dex: IIIIIIII
con: IIIIIIIIIIIII
psy: IIIIIII
int: III
I would just focus on dmg/HP/speed, as they are mainly footies, their psyche is similar, and int is irrelveant for both, though both comparisons favor Oghmirs, this one is more realistic in terms of utility of them as footies. STR is higher in Oghs, but I guess str is dmg in your post, which still isnt as different as you showed, mere 8%, unless you calculated in a clade that lasts 15 seconds and is used by noone.

So a more realistic comparison

Oghmir

Survivability - 791 HP (over a 2 minute fight)

Damage - 124 (24% dmg bonus)

Speed - 415

/

Thursar

Survivability - 440

Damage - 134

Speed - 419

If you wanna do this one in visuals, would be appriciated.
 

Sally

Active member
Dec 2, 2023
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An easy way to test the balance is to just have a min/maxed oghmir and thursar in the "best" gear take turns hitting eachother, and see who dies first. Have them use heals and all their skills if you want. Try different variations and scenarios, note the outcomes.

Do it multiple times and get an average to level out the RNG. Factor in hitbox difference also.

Movement speed only really matters when running away or chasing someone down, as moving faster in range of an attack doesn't necessarily mean more of an advantage. Some people are better at hitting fast things, and worse at hitting slow moving things. Also, you can turn at any speed you set your sensitivity to. Not that speed really matters much in this test because the speed difference is so minor.

In the instance that either party tries to run after entering melee range, it'd be unlikely either could get enough distance to escape using their run speed, so i just don't see why it is that important in this test.

If we're arguing utility outside of 1v1, well, that is trickier because it really depends on the factors of the scenario. Example, you could say having a big hitbox is a disadvantage, however, it is also an advantage in other scenarios.

You have a higher viewing position, you can block attacks aimed at teammates better, you can draw attention better. On the flip side, you are easier to hit and easier to see.

All this being said, is it really necessary? Oghmirs are clearly overtuned, it is very obvious.

Someone on the development team seems to think speed is worth more than what it really amounts to in game; that is the only reason i could think Oghmirs are so statistically imbalanced. Like, i play a lean veela, and i can run away from most situations. But if they have a horse? My stamina runs out. If i'm on a horse? They're better at killing horses with a bow than i am.

All speed is good for is running away when you're already at a safe distance, and closing the gap on someone when you already have an advantage. That is it. Other than that, it amounts to time saved when travelling without a horse. It is not at all "king" as i believe it was described by Henrik.

With horses in the game, speed just isn't as strong as they seem to think it is. Also, in a dungeon, your speed is hamstrung by having less space to move in.

Oghmirs have intelligence, strength and are tanks.. Like, that is everything. They can also just use a horse to minimize the burden of slow movement when outside of a dungeon, and in dungeon, as i already explained, speed is less useful. Oghmirs are the everything race.
 
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Iloros

Member
Dec 14, 2023
53
22
8
Your approach would work if parry didnt exist and Oghmirs werent so good at going behind, hiding in a ball, potting/piping and being full. Lifesteal is much worse due to HTK being too high due to TS/armors + parry being so potent.

I am talking about teamfights. Also higher view position is not enough for a bigger hitbox, hence you see Thursars focused first because of their size/no towershield but you never see anyone use Thursar as a shotcaller due to his high view position.

Question is in how many scenarios is bigger hitbox good, and in how many bad, its basically an FPS game, it aint hard to figure out. Its a massive disadvantage.

And at last we agree, Oghmirs are overtuned.
 

Sally

Active member
Dec 2, 2023
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Your approach would work if parry didnt exist and Oghmirs werent so good at going behind, hiding in a ball, potting/piping and being full. Lifesteal is much worse due to HTK being too high due to TS/armors + parry being so potent.

I am talking about teamfights. Also higher view position is not enough for a bigger hitbox, hence you see Thursars focused first because of their size/no towershield but you never see anyone use Thursar as a shotcaller due to his high view position.

Question is in how many scenarios is bigger hitbox good, and in how many bad, its basically an FPS game, it aint hard to figure out. Its a massive disadvantage.

And at last we agree, Oghmirs are overtuned.
The scenarios where a larger hitbox is advantageous are certainly niche. If we were to quantify the value of a large hitbox by the number of scenarios it could be an advantage in versus the scenarios it would be a disadvantage in, then it most certainly has more disadvantages than advantages.
 

Tzone

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May 16, 2021
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Its obvious that ogmirs are just busted op.
Loys of clades have busted abilities that hurt game play but oghmirs are way to oppressive.

Also tower shields and 1h weps. They havent even tried to fix in the past year of the meta.
 

Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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Its obvious that ogmirs are just busted op.
Loys of clades have busted abilities that hurt game play but oghmirs are way to oppressive.

Also tower shields and 1h weps. They havent even tried to fix in the past year of the meta.
They don't even know tower shields are an issue I bet.

Henrik is probably out here thinking about adding plate tectonics or some shit.
 
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Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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They don't even know tower shields are an issue I bet.

Henrik is probably out here thinking about adding plate tectonics or some shit.
He has heard of the issue, and he mentioned towershields will get a nerf when they figure out how to remove prepatch towershield, however what I am afraid of is their nerf will be miniscule compared to what they need. HTX is way way out of proportion due to them, and the fact that they don't give any real big drawbacks in a fight is astonishing. If any item/mechanic should be a double edged sword it's them.
 

Tzone

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He has heard of the issue, and he mentioned towershields will get a nerf when they figure out how to remove prepatch towershield, however what I am afraid of is their nerf will be miniscule compared to what they need. HTX is way way out of proportion due to them, and the fact that they don't give any real big drawbacks in a fight is astonishing. If any item/mechanic should be a double edged sword it's them.
We told them how to fix it, they should just fix it lol. Has nothing to do with the shield. If your Tower shield gets hit, and you dont parry, then you take stamina damage.

This shouldnt apply as much. to round shields also lower the weight on them.

Its dumb to remove tower shields that people already spent mats to make.

Henriks just out9f touch.
 
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Iloros

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We told them how to fix it, they should just fix it lol. Has nothing to do with the shield. If your Tower shield gets hit, and you dont parry, then you take stamina damage.

This shouldnt apply as much. to round shields also lower the weight on them.

Its dumb to remove tower shields that people already spent mats to make.

Henriks just out9f touch.
100%. Even if they know tshield is OP, they dont understand the extend because they dont play the game and see how battles look like. You go to a 10v10 you gotta deal 1000 dmg to kill one Oghmir, everyone has a towershield, both mages and meta footies (Oghmirs and nothing else)
 

Tzone

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100%. Even if they know tshield is OP, they dont understand the extend because they dont play the game and see how battles look like. You go to a 10v10 you gotta deal 1000 dmg to kill one Oghmir, everyone has a towershield, both mages and meta footies (Oghmirs and nothing else)
My Guild leader has his feedback sent to Henrik through a friend detailing all the issues hes having with mages.
Basically Too much damage, too squishy, incomplete spell schools, ect...
Henrik just replied that he was entirely wrong on everything, and doesnt know what he was talking about.

A mage with over 10k hours in mo1 and close to if not more in mo2 as a mage doesnt know what hes talking to according to Henrik.
Henrik the dude that didnt even know his GMs were trading keeps for players, because someone told him they had a in game system.

Henrik is so out of touch and refuses advice or feedback. He says that Reddit is not a good place for feedback. Then what is? These forums I understand is a small fraction of a percentage ok. Is it the official discord, which is heavily censored and you are not allowed to give feedback that is critical?

No I think he just looks at streams to see whats going on which is the worst way to get feedback because streamers in general dont understand the game and drum up populatrity for what they want. Good luck disagreeing with a streamer in their chat.
 
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Teknique

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Henrik just replied that he was entirely wrong on everything, and doesnt know what he was talking about.
That's been my experience with him as well. He actually thinks mo2 was a great success, since the population is larger than mo1.
 
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Tzone

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That's been my experience with him as well. He actually thinks mo2 was a great success, since the population is larger than mo1.
Better graphics and performance are the main reasons that MO2 has a better population. The gaming population in general increase a lot compared to MO1 launch. He should have about 10 times the pop of mo1 with how the population scales. But he doesn't.

At this point the games a lost cause. Im not subbing anymore when it runs out. Hell IDK even how to sub lol, this company is so bad. They hid the sub button somewhere in the games website.
 
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Iloros

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Better graphics and performance are the main reasons that MO2 has a better population. The gaming population in general increase a lot compared to MO1 launch. He should have about 10 times the pop of mo1 with how the population scales. But he doesn't.

At this point the games a lost cause. Im not subbing anymore when it runs out. Hell IDK even how to sub lol, this company is so bad. They hid the sub button somewhere in the games website.

Yeah, even big games often do terrible balancing mistakes because devs simply dont play at competent level, this is a much smaller game that very, very clearly has no balancing team (they do balance patch once per year).


But then again the meta in this game is so obvious. I learned Oghmirs are OP within first 10 days of playing, you cant escape the fact that someone will mention it. Watched a yt vid, 2 years old "Meta footie Oghmir" 2 years same build is OP, since launch basically. Every high tier pvper acknowledges it and doesnt disagree, and Henrik still goes "Ah Oghmirs are a little too common" buddy, if they were a little too common, it would be closer in high tier battles by big guilds, not 80-20 pick rate between Oghs and other footies, or even 100% if its a smaller team and they really wanna win, I saw groups brint 10 Oghs 1-2 mages and win outnumbered, no variety, just "f u Im overstat and you have to deal 1000 dmg to kill me". It aint a little common, its OP af. Game was better balanced before towershields, htk is out of proportion.
 

Rahz

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Jul 19, 2022
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Towershield balance is overall just dumb. They balanced everything around heavy armor and towershields. Now if you don't use a TShield as a mage, Bows outright destroy you with almost no counterplay (especially out in the open.. and NO, the jiggle doesn't work on everyone since you'd have to pull it off 6 times in a row to even the odds).
Oghmirs just cannot be killed if not outnumbered, especially in Oghmium Armor, which is total bullshit and OP by the way. Melee doesnt do damage, bows dont do damage and then people are calling mages' dmg too high because its armor piercing... yeah, as if 35dmg tlashes or 50dmg fulm (20 ecu to deny btw..use a trinket) is too high damage. MAYBE you're being carried by your Oghmium Armor, Towershield and Hammer and should have died in melee 15 minutes ago.

The other problem is balancing for zergs or even worse 1vX, because IT CANNOT WORK. It never worked in any game and in every game where zerging is possible, its a problem.
By default you can't really balance a 2v1, all you can do is make the fight faster so individual zerglings can be picked off. I think if mages are able to do it and burst down someone, it's fine. It's not like they will hitscan- magebang you from 60m, more like 30m max. And even then it would take 3 mages to effectively burst down a footie.
A single mage can only run away and hope for a really dumb and stupid footie to waste all the stamina and then the footie will still go to the forum and cry about mages being too fast for being a free 1 to 2-hit kill. Same goes for some pets.
People are still running away from Direwolves and thats the only reason you get kills with them. They are 3 HITS! for anyone with a weapon while hitting for what numbers against armor?! 6? 10?( and thats lvl 125). Not saying that some pets arent OP. Anything that has a huge HP pool and hits for more than a direwolf probably is..especially paired with the true worst offender in terms of balance. HEAVY ARMOR.
 

Teknique

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Towershield balance is overall just dumb. They balanced everything around heavy armor and towershields. Now if you don't use a TShield as a mage, Bows outright destroy you with almost no counterplay (especially out in the open.. and NO, the jiggle doesn't work on everyone since you'd have to pull it off 6 times in a row to even the odds).
Oghmirs just cannot be killed if not outnumbered, especially in Oghmium Armor, which is total bullshit and OP by the way. Melee doesnt do damage, bows dont do damage and then people are calling mages' dmg too high because its armor piercing... yeah, as if 35dmg tlashes or 50dmg fulm (20 ecu to deny btw..use a trinket) is too high damage. MAYBE you're being carried by your Oghmium Armor, Towershield and Hammer and should have died in melee 15 minutes ago.

The other problem is balancing for zergs or even worse 1vX, because IT CANNOT WORK. It never worked in any game and in every game where zerging is possible, its a problem.
By default you can't really balance a 2v1, all you can do is make the fight faster so individual zerglings can be picked off. I think if mages are able to do it and burst down someone, it's fine. It's not like they will hitscan- magebang you from 60m, more like 30m max. And even then it would take 3 mages to effectively burst down a footie.
A single mage can only run away and hope for a really dumb and stupid footie to waste all the stamina and then the footie will still go to the forum and cry about mages being too fast for being a free 1 to 2-hit kill. Same goes for some pets.
People are still running away from Direwolves and thats the only reason you get kills with them. They are 3 HITS! for anyone with a weapon while hitting for what numbers against armor?! 6? 10?( and thats lvl 125). Not saying that some pets arent OP. Anything that has a huge HP pool and hits for more than a direwolf probably is..especially paired with the true worst offender in terms of balance. HEAVY ARMOR.
You have to realize MO2 balance is survival of the shittest. The most important thing is people don't feel bad. There's no actual consideration about class balance or whether you're making a good game. Therefore if 95% of people can make it seem like a good game is just foot fighter online then that's what we'll get, because henrik won't actually play the game and check for himself. The main consideration are the feelings of people who cry the loudest and that has essentially been the story of mo2 start to finish.
 

Rahz

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Jul 19, 2022
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You have to realize MO2 balance is survival of the shittest. The most important thing is people don't feel bad. There's no actual consideration about class balance or whether you're making a good game. Therefore if 95% of people can make it seem like a good game is just foot fighter online then that's what we'll get, because henrik won't actually play the game and check for himself. The main consideration are the feelings of people who cry the loudest and that has essentially been the story of mo2 start to finish.
I know you're right, it's just sad tbh. The game is a incoherent mess. If you want a hardcore PvP game, you dont make people grind for HOURS to get a stack of steel or wood(i have 2 stacks of steel in MohKi, 3 in Vadda, 2 in Morin Khur, so i should know) because you would want them to regear and start fighting again. You also dont want fights to take too long in a game like this, because it favors zergs and "calling for backup". Its like they created this world but completely forgot to make a game. I tried to enjoy this game but Im gonna give away all my steel, books, geodes and gold trinkets to some random noob at some random bank coz there is NO WAY IN HELL, id log in when the sub has started. Id rather give a noob the chance to see how much of a empty shell this game is before the poor dude is 800hours into the game.
 
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Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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Towershield balance is overall just dumb. They balanced everything around heavy armor and towershields. Now if you don't use a TShield as a mage, Bows outright destroy you with almost no counterplay (especially out in the open.. and NO, the jiggle doesn't work on everyone since you'd have to pull it off 6 times in a row to even the odds).
Oghmirs just cannot be killed if not outnumbered, especially in Oghmium Armor, which is total bullshit and OP by the way. Melee doesnt do damage, bows dont do damage and then people are calling mages' dmg too high because its armor piercing... yeah, as if 35dmg tlashes or 50dmg fulm (20 ecu to deny btw..use a trinket) is too high damage. MAYBE you're being carried by your Oghmium Armor, Towershield and Hammer and should have died in melee 15 minutes ago.

The other problem is balancing for zergs or even worse 1vX, because IT CANNOT WORK. It never worked in any game and in every game where zerging is possible, its a problem.
By default you can't really balance a 2v1, all you can do is make the fight faster so individual zerglings can be picked off. I think if mages are able to do it and burst down someone, it's fine. It's not like they will hitscan- magebang you from 60m, more like 30m max. And even then it would take 3 mages to effectively burst down a footie.
A single mage can only run away and hope for a really dumb and stupid footie to waste all the stamina and then the footie will still go to the forum and cry about mages being too fast for being a free 1 to 2-hit kill. Same goes for some pets.
People are still running away from Direwolves and thats the only reason you get kills with them. They are 3 HITS! for anyone with a weapon while hitting for what numbers against armor?! 6? 10?( and thats lvl 125). Not saying that some pets arent OP. Anything that has a huge HP pool and hits for more than a direwolf probably is..especially paired with the true worst offender in terms of balance. HEAVY ARMOR.
I think bows still wont ultra counter mages, they indeed are hard to hit, and towershields should especially be nerfed on Oghmirs (stam on equipment hit) and Oghmirs sustain other than that should also be gutted in half. Beer belly to 5, Pipes to 1 minute cooldown. Easy balance, leads to much healthier meta and more fun meele combat. RN. Oghmirs are literally unkillable if they are decent. 1v1s take 10 minutes too. Hot food mega OP. But this would be good start.
 
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Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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You have to realize MO2 balance is survival of the shittest. The most important thing is people don't feel bad. There's no actual consideration about class balance or whether you're making a good game. Therefore if 95% of people can make it seem like a good game is just foot fighter online then that's what we'll get, because henrik won't actually play the game and check for himself. The main consideration are the feelings of people who cry the loudest and that has essentially been the story of mo2 start to finish.
Yeah Henrik overfocuses on community. Like "oh we have this class everyones playing and is OP af, but we dont wanna nerf it yet, we wanna be careful" I understand the no hard nerf approach, but 1. You can revert numbers halfway back if its too much 2. if you leave it as is, its as bad as can be, so you better try something 3. If something is mega OP, insteaf nerfing it 5 timea by 3%, nerf it once by 30% and then cut that in half if it isnt strong enough.
 

Gnidex

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Feb 2, 2022
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Yeah Henrik overfocuses on community. Like "oh we have this class everyones playing and is OP af, but we dont wanna nerf it yet, we wanna be careful" I understand the no hard nerf approach, but 1. You can revert numbers halfway back if its too much 2. if you leave it as is, its as bad as can be, so you better try something 3. If something is mega OP, insteaf nerfing it 5 timea by 3%, nerf it once by 30% and then cut that in half if it isnt strong enough.
They should look at Dark and Darker as an example, they actually used the beta as testing grounds where each patch brings changes (that get quickly reverted if not working) not an extension of mismanaged dev time.

In the meantime at SV the only programmer clocks in and starts working on putting bows on bugged mobs.
 
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