Combat is boring, a note to Henrik.

[RaptorBlackz]

I dueled plenty of turtles, Best way to beat them is to precisely exchange hits with a heavier weapon (Though i do like the idea of doing more damage through parries with heavier equipment)

The video is basically showing the same strat that we aussies did in MO1,attack run away/spin around and swing hitting the user.
Rinse/Repeat, Works in MO2 as per my argument.

Almost most times i attempt no parry as it's second nature from MO1.

 

[Bloodterst]

I dueled plenty of turtles, Best way to beat them is to precisely exchange hits with a heavier weapon (Though i do like the idea of doing more damage through parries with heavier equipment)

The video is basically showing the same strat that we aussies did in MO1,attack run away/spin around and swing hitting the user.
Rinse/Repeat, Works in MO2 as per my argument.

Almost most times i attempt no parry as it's second nature from MO1.

Well idk if u can use that vid as argument when grendel takes 4 tries to pull of a center block.

 

[RaptorBlackz]

Well idk if u can use that vid as argument when grendel takes 4 tries to pull of a center block.

Not my fault he was failing his blocks, With what everyone is saying everyone can pull it off.

The video is to show that the strat from MO1 is still possible with the soo called slower movement speed, Swing run away and counter...That is mortal online in a nutshell.
User doesn't chase?? back away and bandage/heal.

 

[Kaemik]

I'm wondering how combat will feel when all systems are in with mages, tamers, cav etc.

Traditionally ancient and medieval combat were a slow endeavor if you took heavy infantry vs. heavy infantry and had them square off against each other. Where things started to really happen is when say one side's cav comes around and charges into a flank. Then stuff is happening FAST.

Now MO1 isn't really set up for super realistic combat where two sheildwalls of infantry are clashing in a line but I think when we have lancers out on horse or mages hurling fireballs into combat it's really going to shake things up. Can't parry a heavy cav charge (I'm assuming), and you can't parry a thunderlash (I'm quite certain).

So when all systems are in I feel like combat won't feel as slow. Even if it actually remains the same speed.

 

[Teknique]

Not my fault he was failing his blocks, With what everyone is saying everyone can pull it off.

The video is to show that the strat from MO1 is still possible with the soo called slower movement speed, Swing run away and counter...That is mortal online in a nutshell.
User doesn't chase?? back away and bandage/heal.

I'm inbetween, I think many of these euros don't understand how lame it was to just auto lose based on ping if skill is equal.

I mean I see videos of euro players, its not a mystery that some of them look like silvers but then you see them in game and they're somehow gods.

That however doesn't mean the movement speed is good, definitely room to tweak.

 

[bbihah]

Not my fault he was failing his blocks, With what everyone is saying everyone can pull it off.

The video is to show that the strat from MO1 is still possible with the soo called slower movement speed, Swing run away and counter...That is mortal online in a nutshell.
User doesn't chase?? back away and bandage/heal.

They don't understand that speed is relative, they probably think that just them are running slower
In mo1 being able to do that tactic playing from Australia would not pay off, are you from Australia cause then that makes the ping sync look much better than I thought it was.

 

[Bloodterst]

The amount of smoothbrain comments reminds me why i never was a forum warrior. Still think the game is pretty cool but if i ever end up in a 1v1 situation after game goes live i think it will be better to just die and go back to farming compared to spending 30minutes of effort for a 1v1
Maybe the "aggressive" update i keep hearing about will change my mind, who knows.

 

[bbihah]

The amount of smoothbrain comments reminds me why i never was a forum warrior. Still think the game is pretty cool but if i ever end up in a 1v1 situation after game goes live i think it will be better to just die and go back to farming compared to spending 30minutes of effort for a 1v1
Maybe the "aggressive" update i keep hearing about will change my mind, who knows.

If your entire and only offensive strategy to beat people was to get around a janky prediction system and bad sync I think that problem should have been a priority problem to fix regardless if they slowed down combat as well as fixing up the sync between pings or not.

I've advocated for more combat depth for almost half a year now, yet people still somehow think that returning to crappy sync and adjusting blocking arcs STILL after repeatedly being told there could be alternatives. I mean, if you guys want Mo1 combat so badly, you do realize the game is still up and running? Just go and knock yourselves out while you can! If you bring all your friends maybe Henrik will keep the servers up!
Or you'll run your friends away back to mo2, since they'll realize that janky prediction, bad sync and tiny block arcs is not something showing some sort of skill neither is it a fun counter to blocking.

Clear hyperbole by me on everyones opinion on speed I admit, but it is literally the only suggestion I keep hearing from here. Nothing about good mechanics that could actually bring skill and good gameplay to 1v1. I only hear whining that the game feels slow and that now its (still) too easy to parry attacks. I mean that hasn't changed, the only thing that changed in that regard is that a big load of our players actually CAN block now.

Anyone got any suggestions on how to switch combat up so that its not a parry fest? I'm all open ears.


Last time this was talked about a couple months ago I suggested a cooldown between parries. This would make parrying a reactionary skill and not a anticipatory one, if you react on a swing before it is executed you lock yourself to that direction for X amount of time and open yourself up to attack. Upon which case the defending player will have to make more decisions, opening up more interesting gameplay. Would work even better with the current system than how the system was when i first suggested it, now that swings are executed slower and things are better synced.

edit: And before any of you come with; But what about when im being attacked by multiple people? Well, if right now multiple people attack you, you cant block all of them if they are careful about their attack vectors and try to land their attacks from multiple(attack) sides and at the same time. What I also suggested back then is that when you do a successful block or parry it resets the cooldown. Meaning if groups of players are not careful with teamwork when attacking a lone player, he could still parry you by parrying you one after the other.

edit2: in the situation where blocking with a cooldown becomes incredibly difficult or not viable, we will get some sort of dodge(soonTM) as well as sprinting or simply moving out of the way works to compensate in some situations. Maybe you can make one of the opponents miss and then block another, or simply use their own numbers against them by making them risk hitting each other(or more likely to encourage them not to swing in the first place due to the risk). Come with more ideas to move forward instead of taking steps back. I mean this is a repeat of what i said a couple months ago, the only thing that has changed is that movement is a bit slower, sync is better and our non eu players now can block.

 

[Teknique]

If your entire and only offensive strategy to beat people was to get around a janky prediction system and bad sync I think that problem should have been a priority problem to fix regardless if they slowed down combat as well as fixing up the sync between pings or not.

I've advocated for more combat depth for almost half a year now, yet people still somehow think that returning to crappy sync and adjusting blocking arcs STILL after repeatedly being told there could be alternatives. I mean, if you guys want Mo1 combat so badly, you do realize the game is still up and running? Just go and knock yourselves out while you can! If you bring all your friends maybe Henrik will keep the servers up!
Or you'll run your friends away back to mo2, since they'll realize that janky prediction, bad sync and tiny block arcs is not something showing some sort of skill neither is it a fun counter to blocking.

Clear hyperbole by me on everyones opinion on speed I admit, but it is literally the only suggestion I keep hearing from here. Nothing about good mechanics that could actually bring skill and good gameplay to 1v1. I only hear whining that the game feels slow and that now its (still) too easy to parry attacks. I mean that hasn't changed, the only thing that changed in that regard is that a big load of our players actually CAN block now.

Anyone got any suggestions on how to switch combat up so that its not a parry fest? I'm all open ears.


Last time this was talked about a couple months ago I suggested a cooldown between parries. This would make parrying a reactionary skill and not a anticipatory one, if you react on a swing before it is executed you lock yourself to that direction for X amount of time and open yourself up to attack. Upon which case the defending player will have to make more decisions, opening up more interesting gameplay. Would work even better with the current system than how the system was when i first suggested it, now that swings are executed slower and things are better synced.

edit: And before any of you come with; But what about when im being attacked by multiple people? Well, if right now multiple people attack you, you cant block all of them if they are careful about their attack vectors and try to land their attacks from multiple(attack) sides and at the same time. What I also suggested back then is that when you do a successful block or parry it resets the cooldown. Meaning if groups of players are not careful with teamwork when attacking a lone player, he could still parry you by parrying you one after the other.

I feel like that would just turn the combat into this, with a lot more camera manipulation on top

 

[bbihah]

I feel like that would just turn the combat into this, with a lot more camera manipulation on top

I mean, that is sort of how you want it to be but there would need to be tuning for sure(maybe higher stam costs for feinting, maybe a charge speed or release penalty that adds up the more you do it in a row, etc etc). You are supposed to react on the attack being pulled off, not the one being charged. That takes time to get used to. It will be like going back to mordhau after playing mo2 and getting used to that people feint.

I offered a possible fix for the hiding of telegraphing last time around, too. Make a limitation to how much the perceived spinning as well as looking up and down does for other people observing you in a given time frame. Telegraphing has seen a lot of work and getting around it by doing weird spins should not be a thing.

Meaning if a player you are looking at looks quick up and down, it either skips part of that movement to smoothen it out to a point where it can still be read or in other ways not limiting the players ability to look where he wants but also not allowing said player to use quick movements to hide his charge direction. I mean you can still do it in ways. Turn around, charge the attack and then spin back around, but that is far less of a problem on its own, with the whole turning his back part, not turning back around too quick and the fact that the enemy might not just stand there ready for you to turn back around but anticipating it coming and already put space between you, meaning you probably just wasted a bunch of stam for no reason.

Even if you do spins, the one big thing that makes it hard to read is usually the up and down movement and that is probably the more important bit to smoothen out. In mo1 we did not even have the option to look up and down like that, so that being ignored entirely and smoothed out to a always looking straight forward(in those circumstances, but always in the correct direction on the character spin axis) would go long ways to preventing that.

 

[Bloodterst]

I'm not advocating for a full mo1 revert, i'm just saying after spending this weekend i just don't see how the combat makes sense in current state. Spinbot simulator is not a solution and if mo1 was considered aids then mo2 will be transage-jankaids.

With all the different things i see ppl come up with it feels more like we are all here trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Teknique]

I mean, that is sort of how you want it to be but there would need to be tuning for sure(maybe higher stam costs for feinting, maybe a charge speed or release penalty that adds up the more you do it in a row, etc etc). You are supposed to react on the attack being pulled off, not the one being charged. That takes time to get used to. It will be like going back to mordhau after playing mo2 and getting used to that people feint.

I offered a possible fix for the hiding of telegraphing last time around, too. Make a limitation to how much the perceived spinning as well as looking up and down does for other people observing you in a given time frame. Telegraphing has seen a lot of work and getting around it by doing weird spins should not be a thing.

Meaning if a player you are looking at looks quick up and down, it either skips part of that movement to smoothen it out to a point where it can still be read or in other ways not limiting the players ability to look where he wants but also not allowing said player to use quick movements to hide his charge direction. I mean you can still do it in ways. Turn around, charge the attack and then spin back around, but that is far less of a problem on its own, with the whole turning his back part, not turning back around too quick and the fact that the enemy might not just stand there ready for you to turn back around but anticipating it coming and already put space between you, meaning you probably just wasted a bunch of stam for no reason.

Even if you do spins, the one big thing that makes it hard to read is usually the up and down movement and that is probably the more important bit to smoothen out. In mo1 we did not even have the option to look up and down like that, so that being ignored entirely and smoothed out to a always looking straight forward(in those circumstances, but always in the correct direction on the character spin axis) would go long ways to preventing that.

I see that logic, it would require a near complete rework though, much faster windup with a lot slower release, and probably work on the animations like you're saying as well.

and the feint spamming in mordhau was kinda ish imo

 

[bbihah]

I'm not advocating for a full mo1 revert, i'm just saying after spending this weekend i just don't see how the combat makes sense in current state. Spinbot simulator is not a solution and if mo1 was considered aids then mo2 will be transage-jankaids.

With all the different things i see ppl come up with it feels more like we are all here trying to reinvent the wheel.

Like I said, im being mostly hyperbolic. This because we have the same people saying and advocating for about the same things still(except for a couple individuals no longer around due to reasons).

 

[bbihah]

I see that logic, it would require a near complete rework though, much faster windup with a lot slower release, and probably work on the animations like you're saying as well.

and the feint spamming in mordhau was kinda ish imo

But the system needs work regardless how you do it, this kind of system does not need that much work though. As the video shown by yourself, the base for having it work is already there now.

I do agree that JUST having feints to rely on would keep the mordhau tradition of it being a bit meh yes. Hence why we need ideas and not being content with working backwards.

We are at page 8 and I have literally only seen bickering about movement speed should be higher VS NO it is fine where it is, not a word on any ideas that would actually achieve the solution to the #1 problem, which is how easy defense is due to the lack of COMBAT DEPTH.

The bickering about movement speed as well as people trying to measure their dongs Beating their chests, which is even less useful than suggesting this and that about movement speed.

 

[bbihah]

To talk further on this.

People, even if you disagree on this and that, it is fine to voice your opinion about it. But remember this;
You have the actual ability to make a difference in the evolution of the game, it is something that very few games let alone MMOs have ever given to their player base. Being in constant disagreement over a subject and just spending all this time arguing over the small problems when the big problem is still there does not help anyone. In the very least try to prove or push your point about the smaller part of the bigger problem (movement speed) and find ideas to attack the real culprit of why this is a bigger issue (to you or to everyone regardless of their opinion on the smaller problem) which is defensive gameplay being too strong.


Everyone regardless of their stance on the topic are all in agreement on what the bigger problem is, the thing we don't have is suggestions to work on it. More minds coming up with ideas the better, in my optimal MO forum everyone would be in 100% disagreement all the damn time but would work out ideas and constructive ways of fixing things. Instead of inching this and that way while beating your chest about skill level, in a damn not even out of alpha/beta(however you want to define it) game in which mechanics at least SHOULD be changing a LOT.

Can we all have a united front against the real enemy?

I have not heard a single person that think the current state of defensive gameplay is a good addition to the game in its current state. Because if defensive gameplay only helped one person and not the other then obviously the one who it helped would be in favor of it remaining completely unchanged. The lack of such a person makes that an incredibly easy thing to unify around.

 

[Teknique]

To talk further on this.

People, even if you disagree on this and that, it is fine to voice your opinion about it. But remember this;
You have the actual ability to make a difference in the evolution of the game, it is something that very few games let alone MMOs have ever given to their player base. Being in constant disagreement over a subject and just spending all this time arguing over the small problems when the big problem is still there does not help anyone. In the very least try to prove or push your point about the smaller part of the bigger problem (movement speed) and find ideas to attack the real culprit of why this is a bigger issue (to you or to everyone regardless of their opinion on the smaller problem) which is defensive gameplay being too strong.


Everyone regardless of their stance on the topic are all in agreement on what the bigger problem is, the thing we don't have is suggestions to work on it. More minds coming up with ideas the better, in my optimal MO forum everyone would be in 100% disagreement all the damn time but would work out ideas and constructive ways of fixing things. Instead of inching this and that way while beating your chest about skill level, in a damn not even out of alpha/beta(however you want to define it) game in which mechanics at least SHOULD be changing a LOT.

Can we all have a united front against the real enemy?

I have not heard a single person that think the current state of defensive gameplay is a good addition to the game in its current state. Because if defensive gameplay only helped one person and not the other then obviously the one who it helped would be in favor of it remaining completely unchanged. The lack of such a person makes that an incredibly easy thing to unify around.

I’m sort of like the person on the bottom. I can probably count the people I can’t beat on two hands currently.

Like all with power I fear to lose it with changes

Still the 360 swing morphs will likely lose their novelty and the defensive style is not my preferred combat style.

What I would like to see is a kick with extremely heavy recoil (kind of like that turn cap everyone hated but I actually liked) and a tiny hitbox meaning only someone with god tier aim could land it.

 

[bbihah]

To comment on your suggestion to make it more of a expansive thing. If blocking made you slow down while blocking as well as making it just a tad bit longer to accelerate to full speed for a moment afterwards that would make it easier to hit someone with the kick if they incorrectly turtle up behind a block and preventing them from immediately moving out of the way. more or less meaning a blocking target is an easier target to someone with a turn cap.

Successful blocking could bypass the slowdown to acceleration, that way not messing with your chance to use counter on a sprinting enemy in that circumstance.

 

[Rorry]

To comment on your suggestion to make it more of a expansive thing. If blocking made you slow down while blocking as well as making it just a tad bit longer to accelerate to full speed for a moment afterwards that would make it easier to hit someone with the kick if they incorrectly turtle up behind a block and preventing them from immediately moving out of the way. more or less meaning a blocking target is an easier target to someone with a turn cap.

Successful blocking could bypass the slowdown to acceleration, that way not messing with your chance to use counter on a sprinting enemy in that circumstance.

The problem with this and most of the other fixes that suggest adding things is that even if they may be ok or neutral in a 1v1 situation they by and large have MASSIVE and usually negative implications for the more common and important types of fights that are in the real game world.

A slow down while blocking in a 1 v2 or more = instant and stupid death. An unblockable kick or move in a 1 v2 or more = instant and stupid death, big damage through a parry the same plus MC becomes OP. Theme park rolling dodges = the game having skill instead of the player. Whatever the system ends up being, PLAYER SKILL MUST MATTER MOST.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Australian here, Can say i prefer the Synchronization of MO2 instead of the cancer 1style of play that we australians had to adapt to in MO1 of being nothing but aggressive and exchanging hits.

I say for you people arguing, Learn to adapt to the MO2 mechanics like we had to adapt to MO1, AKA git gud.
You can still pull the maneuvers from MO1 btw.

Aight man sounds great.

You didnt like being forced to playing aggressive and trading hits but you are happy in MO2 that you can trade hits but not play aggressive while getting dunked by lower ping players. Sounds so much better imo...

Yes adapt to MO2 where skill ceiling is reached in 1 day and you have no way to increase your power so what exactly should we adapt to ? Not falling asleep ? Should we handicap ourselves in RL so we are not handicapped by the game instead ? Play while streaming numerous streams and DLing numerous shows to increase our ping so the game is harder ?

How can you maneuver like MO if speed is so slow that any slightly decent player can hit you in the back and parry all your hits ? Nah man better to stay perfectly still and try to break the animations or the game in order to land a hit, sounds like a great improvement...

From that video, you are fighting a less than decent player who dont know how to block.
You can also see that speed downs had fuck all to say about your aussie ping since your damage lands a sec later than the animation. Wonder what Val and Snipes will use as excuse to state its improved while this is how Valoran has played since the start.

I dueled plenty of turtles, Best way to beat them is to precisely exchange hits with a heavier weapon (Though i do like the idea of doing more damage through parries with heavier equipment)

The video is basically showing the same strat that we aussies did in MO1,attack run away/spin around and swing hitting the user.
Rinse/Repeat, Works in MO2 as per my argument.

Almost most times i attempt no parry as it's second nature from MO1.

Until you fight a decent and better player. Then you will probably get flawlessed if you fight like this.

I'm wondering how combat will feel when all systems are in with mages, tamers, cav etc.

Traditionally ancient and medieval combat were a slow endeavor if you took heavy infantry vs. heavy infantry and had them square off against each other. Where things started to really happen is when say one side's cav comes around and charges into a flank. Then stuff is happening FAST.

Now MO1 isn't really set up for super realistic combat where two sheildwalls of infantry are clashing in a line but I think when we have lancers out on horse or mages hurling fireballs into combat it's really going to shake things up. Can't parry a heavy cav charge (I'm assuming), and you can't parry a thunderlash (I'm quite certain).

So when all systems are in I feel like combat won't feel as slow. Even if it actually remains the same speed.

Thats the same said beforeFOV, before archery, before crafting, before real armors. Still snail pace combat after all that came in.
Yes mounts will make combat on MOUNTS faster, because mounts dont care about no speed nor global market screams. Mounts do not cause issues, prediction faults, lag or any of the issues excused as neccessary to nerf better players on foot.
Mounts are special and dont adhere to such limitations, the tech has made mounts work outside tech limitation and ping that footmen just sadly cant get around...

Shieldwalls would have been a tactic but sadly it dont work so its useless.

When all systems are in combat will feel just as slow since adding things dont make combat faster.
TTK will increase with magic due to they not having to aim while firing heatseeking missiles that cant be missed due to the snail combat speed.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Not my fault he was failing his blocks, With what everyone is saying everyone can pull it off.

The video is to show that the strat from MO1 is still possible with the soo called slower movement speed, Swing run away and counter...That is mortal online in a nutshell.
User doesn't chase?? back away and bandage/heal.

You dont balance your game around bad players, you balance combat around the good fighter, crafting around good crafters, etc.
Just because you can flawless noobs and players who cant block dont mean the game is about skill.

I'm inbetween, I think many of these euros don't understand how lame it was to just auto lose based on ping if skill is equal.

I mean I see videos of euro players, its not a mystery that some of them look like silvers but then you see them in game and they're somehow gods.

That however doesn't mean the movement speed is good, definitely room to tweak.

How do you explain that many of MOs best players where NAs ? Beating most EUs with ease, but ofc that dont matter when its a example against your arguement.
Whats the excuse now that all EUs are NAs ? I am effectively playing with 160+ ping now, whats the excuse when the game says the opposite of you ?

They don't understand that speed is relative, they probably think that just them are running slower
In mo1 being able to do that tactic playing from Australia would not pay off, are you from Australia cause then that makes the ping sync look much better than I thought it was.

Hmm i know of atleast 1 guild of 30 players who disagreed with you while they was still playing MO. But ofc that dont matter since it proves you are wrong...

The amount of smoothbrain comments reminds me why i never was a forum warrior. Still think the game is pretty cool but if i ever end up in a 1v1 situation after game goes live i think it will be better to just die and go back to farming compared to spending 30minutes of effort for a 1v1
Maybe the "aggressive" update i keep hearing about will change my mind, who knows.

Easier to be a forum warrior and do the battle there instead of needing to train up in game and prove it through action. The common denominator is that they want things easy and not hard. They want things for free and not have to work for it.

But the system needs work regardless how you do it, this kind of system does not need that much work though. As the video shown by yourself, the base for having it work is already there now.

I do agree that JUST having feints to rely on would keep the mordhau tradition of it being a bit meh yes. Hence why we need ideas and not being content with working backwards.

We are at page 8 and I have literally only seen bickering about movement speed should be higher VS NO it is fine where it is, not a word on any ideas that would actually achieve the solution to the #1 problem, which is how easy defense is due to the lack of COMBAT DEPTH.

The bickering about movement speed as well as people trying to measure their dongs Beating their chests, which is even less useful than suggesting this and that about movement speed.

If you read you find many posts where I suggest changes other than speed but it will make the game harder so noone wants that cause they want it easy.
Lower swing arcs, lower block arcs, lower parry timer, decreasing the armor values and decrease how good the counter is. Been suggesting that since February.
All those changes dont touch speed and will increase the skill ceiling by quite a bit if the changes are substantial compared to now.

To talk further on this.

People, even if you disagree on this and that, it is fine to voice your opinion about it. But remember this;
You have the actual ability to make a difference in the evolution of the game, it is something that very few games let alone MMOs have ever given to their player base. Being in constant disagreement over a subject and just spending all this time arguing over the small problems when the big problem is still there does not help anyone. In the very least try to prove or push your point about the smaller part of the bigger problem (movement speed) and find ideas to attack the real culprit of why this is a bigger issue (to you or to everyone regardless of their opinion on the smaller problem) which is defensive gameplay being too strong.


Everyone regardless of their stance on the topic are all in agreement on what the bigger problem is, the thing we don't have is suggestions to work on it. More minds coming up with ideas the better, in my optimal MO forum everyone would be in 100% disagreement all the damn time but would work out ideas and constructive ways of fixing things. Instead of inching this and that way while beating your chest about skill level, in a damn not even out of alpha/beta(however you want to define it) game in which mechanics at least SHOULD be changing a LOT.

Can we all have a united front against the real enemy?

I have not heard a single person that think the current state of defensive gameplay is a good addition to the game in its current state. Because if defensive gameplay only helped one person and not the other then obviously the one who it helped would be in favor of it remaining completely unchanged. The lack of such a person makes that an incredibly easy thing to unify around.

Yea you cant unify when the arguements are opposite of each others, one crowd wants harder combat and the other wants easy combat.
Sadly only 1 crowd is inline with MOs original vision which has continually been shit on since 2009.

I’m sort of like the person on the bottom. I can probably count the people I can’t beat on two hands currently.

Like all with power I fear to lose it with changes

Still the 360 swing morphs will likely lose their novelty and the defensive style is not my preferred combat style.

What I would like to see is a kick with extremely heavy recoil (kind of like that turn cap everyone hated but I actually liked) and a tiny hitbox meaning only someone with god tier aim could land it.

Lies, I am told that NAs cant win against any EUs and thats the reason for dumbing the game down. Thats just how this works, sorry Teknique but you will never be able to beat EUs in the game. Truth hurts I know.
Hopefully more wakes up and realized how much lies is associated with brown nosers influencing the game negatively.