Can we fly?

[Phen]

Flying is the concept of being in the air without any rigid support contacting a fixed surface
Gliding is propulsionless flight, that is you can not use energy to fly.

I only shot down flying because you oversimplified it, and are ignorant to Henrik's The Vision. You want flight? You can have flight. But only if it's based off of the following: https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Aerodynamics-John-Anderson-Jr/dp/0073398101
and not some hack trying to make MO2 feel like Archeage.

G Force? I agree with you; I only covered topics that would need to be implemented for flight to work; G-LOC is not really related to flight but it is related to pilot feedback and control of the vehicle. For gliders, you would have to fly from a very tall mountain and have an extremely large control surface in order to induce G-LOC. For dragons? Conceivably yes, G-Forces definitely need to be accounted for.

Also, I'm assuming you played MO post-steam release and are pretending to be from pre-steam, or you are someone pre-steam pretending to be post-steam; either way you're a post-steam LARPer. If you truly understood Henrik as well as the rest of the hardcore, tenured community, you would know there is no such thing as "meeting in the middle." It's all or nothing. Either mages are nerfed to the ground or buffed into god status. Mounteds can either 1-2 shot people moving at the speed of sound or get stuck at any >10 degree incline. Either flight is 99.9% realistic, or it doesn't exist at all. This is the way. This is The Vision.

As for your crafting, as an American I'm too lazy to go back and see what crafting thread you are referencing but what I will say is I likely did not like your idea because I never bothered to read it. Us Americans have a naturally small attention span. We base our decisions on the first few and last lines of a paragraph, and never bother reading anything more than a few short paragraphs. You would be even more ignorant if you expected me to read more than I could.

You are correct, I was a pre-steam player. Eventhough that doesnt mean anything... to account for what your saying, why arent we cleaning our mounts hoves? Or why do some cooking ingredients do nothing when they do tons in reality.

We both know there will be lots changed. Hearing nearly 4 hours of redundancy questions through Q&A there is a middle ground. That's why they fixed things after implementation. Which as Henrik said "frustrated people and they dont want that again". He then responded with, " we want to make sure they work right before we implement them."

I'm not ignorant to his ideas at all. We are really on the same page, it's trying to find the "middle ground" so everyone can have a fun experience. It's a balancing game between realistic feeling and fantasy. Nothing is seen as completely fair, nor so believable that it brings player irrations.

By all means if they bring back Lancing and 2 shots, it'll become meta. Which I believe the goal is to reduce meta builds by all measures. Still encouraging the sandbox mmo feeling above all. Unless I've been mistaken by his words and how he is approaching each implementation. It sounds like he doesnt want metas and he wants solo players to have some chance in the world.

Taming a dragon while flying is the equivalent of saying hello to your neighborhood ATF while he's riding an A10 Warthog lol. You want to tame a dragon it should definitely be tamed while it's resting on land.

Really?... Have you never seen a bunch of people falling holding hands in some pattern? They all are adjusting themselves to fall at a similar rate. Exactly what you would need do to if you were to fly down on a dragon. The dragons would move at a rate in which you could glide to them and jump off moving nearly the same speed.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

You are correct, I was a pre-steam player. Eventhough that doesnt mean anything... to account for what your saying, why arent we cleaning our mounts hoves? Or why do some cooking ingredients do nothing when they do tons in reality.

We both know there will be lots changed. Hearing nearly 4 hours of redundancy questions through Q&A there is a middle ground. That's why they fixed things after implementation. Which as Henrik said "frustrated people and they dont want that again". He then responded with, " we want to make sure they work right before we implement them."

I'm not ignorant to his ideas at all. We are really on the same page, it's trying to find the "middle ground" so everyone can have a fun experience. It's a balancing game between realistic feeling and fantasy. Nothing is seen as completely fair, nor so believable that it brings player irrations.

By all means if they bring back Lancing and 2 shots, it'll become meta. Which I believe the goal is to reduce meta builds by all measures. Still encouraging the sandbox mmo feeling above all. Unless I've been mistaken by his words and how he is approaching each implementation. It sounds like he doesnt want metas and he wants solo players to have some chance in the world.




Really?... Have you never seen a bunch of people falling holding hands in some pattern? They all are adjusting themselves to fall at a similar rate. Exactly what you would need do to if you were to fly down on a dragon. The dragons would move at a rate in which you could glide to them and jump off moving nearly the same speed.

We don't have to clean our mounts hooves because we pay the stableman to do that for us? Like what?

And which cooking ingredients are you referring to?

Henrik says things to make people feel better. If you understood the Henrik you would be able to read inbetween the lines and truly understand what he will do.

And while I agree there should be a balance between realism and the dragon flying, death knight crutching, fireball chucking world that is fantasy, the amount of middle ground to be found is limited. There is very little compromise when Henrik's The Vision is at stake.

 

[Phen]

Archeage has a very very different tone, and is at a different tech level lore wise than mortal. Nave is like, in a shitty dark age after some horrible wars. Archeage has cannons and grand civilizations with copious commerce.

And yeah itd add a dynamic, but I dont think its a good one. Its just a way to further avoid traveling on foot through certain parts of the map..

I know we all hated walking down the glitchy hills or getting attacked by invisible bears, but we have to look at this with the assumption, that those things hopefully will be different this time...

That was partly the idea. If you could glide at all, you couldnt wear armor or have a lot of weight anyways. This would at least give players a way to not get gank everytime they walk out of a town. Kinda like cat and mouse in a battle. If you really want someone dead and they can glide away and you can ride after them. They may land before you and travel farther in less time, but they dont have a lot of gear(weight w/e) nor are they faster then you once they've landed sense your mounted.

I'm no care bear but I'm not a murdering asshole. But with a map this big, it already will take days on days to learn. I just see it being a helpful way to discover things in such a large map.

 

[Kavu]

Which I believe the goal is to reduce meta builds by all measures. Still encouraging the sandbox mmo feeling above all. Unless I've been mistaken by his words and how he is approaching each implementation. It sounds like he doesnt want metas and he wants solo players to have some chance in the world.

I know what you're trying to say here, but I'm going to nitpick the wording, because in discussions like this, semantics can be really important for comprehension. By "reduce" you mean reduce the potency of particular meta builds. Not, reduce the number of builds that are meta, yes? There will always be a meta, there will always be players who are tryhard as hell who figure out the best build for a particular playstyle or situation. I think the goal ought always to be closing the gap between experimental and meta builds, as well as giving a larger variety of meta builds. A meta for more styles and weapons.
A meta build being better than other builds is perfectly fine, but it shouldn't be night and day.
I'm excited to see how extreme meta is mitigated this time around.

 

[Phen]

We don't have to clean our mounts hooves because we pay the stableman to do that for us? Like what?

And which cooking ingredients are you referring to?

Henrik says things to make people feel better. If you understood the Henrik you would be able to read inbetween the lines and truly understand what he will do.

And while I agree there should be a balance between realism and the dragon flying, death knight crutching, fireball chucking world that is fantasy, the amount of middle ground to be found is limited. There is very little compromise when Henrik's The Vision is at stake.

If you believe Henrik is here to manipulate us all into believing things. Well... isnt that his job. To have an idea and push that idea in hope it works out? A lot of what he said was stuff that wont even be around for a long while. As any veteran know, it look years to get MO1 to be where it's at, I dont expect less from MO2..

But if your saying hes misleading everyone just seems disrespectful.. I personally dont seem him as a misleading leader. He even slipped a name of the AI in the Q&A. I feel hes not purposely misleading anyone.

 

[Kavu]

If you believe Henrik is here to manipulate us all into believing things. Well... isnt that his job. To have an idea and push that idea in hope it works out? A lot of what he said was stuff that wont even be around for a long while. As any veteran know, it look years to get MO1 to be where it's at, I dont expect less from MO2..

But if your saying hes misleading everyone just seems disrespectful.. I personally dont seem him as a misleading leader. He even slipped a name of the AI in the Q&A. I feel hes not purposely misleading anyone.

I for one am pretty against saying shit I don't mean and making promises I don't intend to keep... but I understand in his position why he doesn't want to outright say "no" to anything. "We're looking into it" or "not currently planned, but it's a topic we can discuss" is better than yes or no as it doesn't promise anything. They don't have the money to alienate too many people, even if the ideas really don't fit the vision, the scope, or any of the themes of the game. So.. Henrik playcates without too much investment in things that might not really happen. I'm fine with that, and I respect the strat. I'm also a game dev though, so maybe I'm biased.

The alternative is go the Chris Roberts path and say yes to every single thing anyone says to you, even if it conflicts with existing things, and you create this abomination of a never-finishable project that has enough at-odds concepts to make your head spin. That's how you get failed games once the incredible mountain of money runs out though. ?

 

[Phen]

I know what you're trying to say here, but I'm going to nitpick the wording, because in discussions like this, semantics can be really important for comprehension. By "reduce" you mean reduce the potency of particular meta builds. Not, reduce the number of builds that are meta, yes? There will always be a meta, there will always be players who are tryhard as hell who figure out the best build for a particular playstyle or situation. I think the goal ought always to be closing the gap between experimental and meta builds, as well as giving a larger variety of meta builds. A meta for more styles and weapons.
A meta build being better than other builds is perfectly fine, but it shouldn't be night and day.
I'm excited to see how extreme meta is mitigated this time around.

Reduce is the right wording.

Having a general meta is okay like you said, but like Henrik said, only having one race used in particular ways to min max and creating a particular build for combat or crafting. Wasnt the intention, I'm guessing the intention is any clade can be any profession. Which wasnt the case in MO1. Turning to MO2, reducing the metas by having all clades capable of doing things. So just reducing the meta, not making it min max based on Clade but based on skill/stats.

It's like I'm looking at Statwars Galaxy before jedi became an everyone thing. This is where Henrik and I see very eye to eye. Having few players being a jedi didnt make the game unbalanced, just made a bunch of whinners ( once the game got over populated ). It's like dragons being too over powered, eventhough if you think about it, a ballista will do the job in a single shot. I dont see dragon riders being to powerful, they wont live long with how ruthless Nave is anyways. Similar to Jedis back then, everyone attacked them so they didn't have to deal with it. It was also SUPER hard to achieve by any game standards, making it rare to see even if you play a lot. I dont see dragons being much different honestly.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

If you believe Henrik is here to manipulate us all into believing things. Well... isnt that his job. To have an idea and push that idea in hope it works out? A lot of what he said was stuff that wont even be around for a long while. As any veteran know, it look years to get MO1 to be where it's at, I dont expect less from MO2..

But if your saying hes misleading everyone just seems disrespectful.. I personally dont seem him as a misleading leader. He even slipped a name of the AI in the Q&A. I feel hes not purposely misleading anyone.

It's not misleading, I wonder never insult our glorious leader. I'm just saying there's a way to interpret Henrik and my interpretation is superior.

 

[Phen]

I for one am pretty against saying shit I don't mean and making promises I don't intend to keep... but I understand in his position why he doesn't want to outright say "no" to anything. "We're looking into it" or "not currently planned, but it's a topic we can discuss" is better than yes or no as it doesn't promise anything. They don't have the money to alienate too many people, even if the ideas really don't fit the vision, the scope, or any of the themes of the game. So.. Henrik playcates without too much investment in things that might not really happen. I'm fine with that, and I respect the strat. I'm also a game dev though, so maybe I'm biased.

The alternative is go the Chris Roberts path and say yes to every single thing anyone says to you, even if it conflicts with existing things, and you create this abomination of a never-finishable project that has enough at-odds concepts to make your head spin. That's how you get failed games once the incredible mountain of money runs out though. ?

It's TRUE, by just saying yes to everything means it wont make it... how Henrik is going about it, isnt a yes or no. It's just not that time to go over that part of the project.
Like building a house... dont start with the colors of the living room walls.. gotta have a foundation and take it step by step.

 

[Kavu]

It's like I'm looking at Statwars Galaxy before jedi became an everyone thing. This is where Henrik and I see very eye to eye. Having few players being a jedi didnt make the game unbalanced, just made a bunch of whinners ( once the game got over populated ). It's like dragons being too over powered, eventhough if you think about it, a ballista will do the job in a single shot. I dont see dragon riders being to powerful, they wont live long with how ruthless Nave is anyways. Similar to Jedis back then, everyone attacked them so they didn't have to deal with it. It was also SUPER hard to achieve by any game standards, making it rare to see even if you play a lot. I dont see dragons being much different honestly.

One thought that did cross my mind earlier, is how it felt to ride a lykiator or something that you didn't have the pet points for. It was yours, right, under your control?.. but not really? Like get off that thing for too long, or get thrown, and it was about to become a savage beast again. I think if a creature like a dragon is as much of a burden as it is a boon, it could be okay. Especially given how willing to murder it the good people of Nave are.

When I looted Discord's hammer back in TBH Order, we ultimately sold the thing, as it was worth more to us in gold than it ever would be as a GM's weapon. Real big and power hammer, but... all it would take is a couple thunderlashes on target and its not yours anymore?

I still hate dragons on principle, but if a balance can be found, I'll get over it.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

When I looted Discord's hammer back in TBH Order, we ultimately sold the thing, as it was worth more to us in gold than it ever would be as a GM's weapon. Real big and power hammer, but... all it would take is a couple thunderlashes on target and its not yours anymore?

What Discord should've done is modeled the hammer after Mjolnir. Thunderlashes should've made it STRONGER

 

[Phen]

One thought that did cross my mind earlier, is how it felt to ride a lykiator or something that you didn't have the pet points for. It was yours, right, under your control?.. but not really? Like get off that thing for too long, or get thrown, and it was about to become a savage beast again. I think if a creature like a dragon is as much of a burden as it is a boon, it could be okay. Especially given how willing to murder it the good people of Nave are.

When I looted Discord's hammer back in TBH Order, we ultimately sold the thing, as it was worth more to us in gold than it ever would be as a GM's weapon. Real big and power hammer, but... all it would take is a couple thunderlashes on target and its not yours anymore?

I still hate dragons on principle, but if a balance can be found, I'll get over it.

I agree completely agree, just having something of power doesnt make you better then well timed attack. If anything it puts a target on you.. mhmm.. bounty hunting for dragon riders. Sounds like something to be discussed, kinda why I brought up gliding. As it would be another way to take down dragons (which fly if anyone is wondering....) as I honestly wouldnt want them around either as capturable pets.

Just sounds devastating, yet I got friends who would die ten thousand times to say "I captured a dragon once." Cuase we all know the next half of that conversation...
[Guy without dragon] " what?! That's awesome! Can I see"
[Guy with Dragon] " Oh, I dont have it anymore."
[Guy without dragon] "Huh? What happened?"
[Guy who had dragon] "It got shot outta the air by a ballista. It was fun while it lasted."
[Guy without dragon] "Dammn... lol"

 

[Kavu]

[Guy without dragon] "Dammn... lol"

I do worry about it having counterplay for anyone who isnt actively sitting on a ballista. It sounds like an ultra instinct steroids version of the mounted problem. If i bring a squad of 3 or 4 rock eating blood spilling grizzled guerillas out into the forest to hunt down some knights or whatever, i don't like the idea that PussSlayerPete can log on, fly over the map and one tap me with a fireball while we're powerless to stop him in a full loot game.

 

[Phen]

I do worry about it having counterplay for anyone who isnt actively sitting on a ballista. It sounds like an ultra instinct steroids version of the mounted problem. If i bring a squad of 3 or 4 rock eating blood spilling grizzled guerillas out into the forest to hunt down some knights or whatever, i don't like the idea that PussSlayerPete can log on, fly over the map and one tap me with a fireball while we're powerless to stop him in a full loot game.

Wait now who said anything about you being able to using weapons or magic on a dragon?! No, just no, give the dragon some mana and have him blow like 4 AOE blasts that fizzle after so far. Delay between each attack, maybe it could land and be more of a normal pet with a stomp or something. Idk though..

That's why I didnt get into the dragon part as much as the "flying". I highly agree, the dragon just seems overpowered but if treated like the boss it is. It shouldn't be impossible to defeat.

Only reason i want it, is to destroy the dreams of those who get them. I'm sure the material worth more, kinda like having a GM weapon. ;D

 

[Slammington Unchained]

Wait now who said anything about you being able to using weapons or magic on a dragon?! No, just no, give the dragon some mana and have him blow like 4 AOE blasts that fizzle after so far. Delay between each attack, maybe it could land and be more of a normal pet with a stomp or something. Idk though..

BuT tHeN tHe GaMe WiLl bE ToTaL WaR WaRhAmMeR

 

[Amelia]

If we will be getting boats, can we get gliders too?! Whatcha all think?

I'm thinking:

Requires:
Diving skill, Str, and Dex.
2 Handed Equipment

Information:

Loses durability when used.

Immobilization when equipping.

Slows movement when sprinting/walkin.

Must fall 10m before glider will activate.

Gliders max speed downward is 3x the sleep of max sprint speed.

Skill based landing. "bad landing causing damage, durability loss, or death."

Distance travelled is determined by the height of your jump and terrain levels.

I don't know, maybe yes but in the next 10/15 years ?

 

[Amadman]

Another negative thing that came to my mind about gliders is that it would make it too easy to get down from mountains and such. Gaining the knowledge of how to traverse the world is a big part of the game. Being able to just jump off a cliff and glide down would negate much of this.

 

[Kavu]

Another negative thing that came to my mind about gliders is that it would make it too easy to get down from mountains and such. Gaining the knowledge of how to traverse the world is a big part of the game. Being able to just jump off a cliff and glide down would negate much of this.

Yeah thats what i was trying to get across for the last few posts but mans wants dem gliders dangit.

 

[Phen]

Another negative thing that came to my mind about gliders is that it would make it too easy to get down from mountains and such. Gaining the knowledge of how to traverse the world is a big part of the game. Being able to just jump off a cliff and glide down would negate much of this.

Well if someone is chasing a guy who doesnt have much but a glider and some light gear. Then I personally dont see the problem. It's not like you can wear full armor or carry even a stack of anything. Your weight would make you fall anyways. I'm sure you would see lots of people trying to glide with armor...

 

[Phen]

I don't know, maybe yes but in the next 10/15 years ?

Yeah kinda what I was thinking too.