Butchery.

[Alrashid]

there a butchery tables ingame ... so ..

 

[Rorry]

there a butchery tables ingame ... so ..

They are copy pasted from MO1. SV has mentioned that things can change there before release.

 

[Eldrath]

I understand your intent, the problem is how much that would limit the amount of gold entering the economy.
For example, if the map had the same resources as MO1 a town like Vadda would only have a local economy of around 6 gold worth of bandits per hour plus a few gold worth of skeletons, minus what would be lost to passing marauders which would support less than 1 player and would in no way allow for a robust economy.
Traveling far across the map to farm a dungeon may cover this if MO2 is radically different than 1.
But that is yet to be seen and I am skeptical that that will work both for large and small groups, though it may for an individual.

Considering that SV had to keep bad systems running because of the insane amounts of gold that came from broken mechanics like butchery I think limiting the amount of gold is not a problem. Actually giving players the ability to get so much gold was what created problems in the first place. This was then made worse by territory control.

I have kept this in mind when I propose that NPC vendors should not take materials. It actually makes it easier for SV to control how much gold is put into the economy and thus the actual value of it. As you mention Vadda: Those mountains could be very extensive in Mortal Online 2 and yield many roaming bandits, graves (don´t forget chests, graves, barrels, urns etc. as a pure gold source), groups of skeletons.

Additionally gems could make a return, giving miners and woodcutters a very small direct gold income.

There are so many good ways to introduce gold into the economy that are much more new player friendly than butchery.

 

[Kuroi]

I understand your intent, the problem is how much that would limit the amount of gold entering the economy.
For example, if the map had the same resources as MO1 a town like Vadda would only have a local economy of around 6 gold worth of bandits per hour plus a few gold worth of skeletons, minus what would be lost to passing marauders which would support less than 1 player and would in no way allow for a robust economy.
Traveling far across the map to farm a dungeon may cover this if MO2 is radically different than 1.
But that is yet to be seen and I am skeptical that that will work both for large and small groups, though it may for an individual.

well, imho MO got copper silver and gold value for a reason, money is not intended to be easy to get and getting straight to "gold", everyone should think about a way to earn something... back in the days i had a mount shop and i earned a lot thanks to it, just accepting requests by people and going into the wild and taming.
we shouldn't focus on just killing stuff to get money, i think we can do better than that. i even remember paying people with carcasses instead of money!

There are so many good ways to introduce gold into the economy that are much more new player friendly than butchery.

exactly what i think as well, we're just too much focused on getting gold with killing beasts imho

butchering carcasses you may find something that the animal swallowed in the wilderness (a ring? a gemstone? even money lol)
miners can find gems while getting ores
woodcutters may find something in the trees when cutting down them
noobs may find gatherable goods without using skills, just by exploring the world, that can be sold to npcs

what else?

 

[Teknique]

Considering that SV had to keep bad systems running because of the insane amounts of gold that came from broken mechanics like butchery I think limiting the amount of gold is not a problem. Actually giving players the ability to get so much gold was what created problems in the first place. This was then made worse by territory control.

I have kept this in mind when I propose that NPC vendors should not take materials. It actually makes it easier for SV to control how much gold is put into the economy and thus the actual value of it. As you mention Vadda: Those mountains could be very extensive in Mortal Online 2 and yield many roaming bandits, graves (don´t forget chests, graves, barrels, urns etc. as a pure gold source), groups of skeletons.

Additionally gems could make a return, giving miners and woodcutters a very small direct gold income.

There are so many good ways to introduce gold into the economy that are much more new player friendly than butchery.

When I was new killing animals was probably the only reason I played.

 

[Teknique]

I understand your intent, the problem is how much that would limit the amount of gold entering the economy.
For example, if the map had the same resources as MO1 a town like Vadda would only have a local economy of around 6 gold worth of bandits per hour plus a few gold worth of skeletons, minus what would be lost to passing marauders which would support less than 1 player and would in no way allow for a robust economy.
Traveling far across the map to farm a dungeon may cover this if MO2 is radically different than 1.
But that is yet to be seen and I am skeptical that that will work both for large and small groups, though it may for an individual.

Something interesting Rolufe brought up is you can actually make a combat butcher now if you’re new. You don’t have to drop combat skills for lores

 

[Xunila]

butchering carcasses you may find something that the animal swallowed in the wilderness (a ring? a gemstone? even money lol)
miners can find gems while getting ores
woodcutters may find something in the trees when cutting down them
noobs may find gatherable goods without using skills, just by exploring the world, that can be sold to npcs

We had all this in MO1: trophies from the animals, rings and other stuff from humans. The item worth of the gems in trees has been too small, usually a 2 silver item which allows to buy two new pick axes. The worth of all those items should be increased (but not too much) in case of removed worth of extracted items from butchery or rock extraction.

 

[Eldrath]

When I was new killing animals was probably the only reason I played.

That sounds disturbing.

 

[Teknique]

That sounds disturbing.

To elaborate, I would kill some wisents skin them, sell the stuff to the vendor. Make 8 or so gold, buy a sator spear off the broker for x amount of gold.

Then when I learned I had to drop some fighting skills or butchery ability was when the reality of MO hit.

In short I think a combat butcher is going to be the ideal noob character.

 

[Vakirauta]

Lol, when I started the game I was selling rocks and wood to other players and never wanted to quit because of that

I know how it all looks, just sayin

 

[Teknique]

Lol, when I started the game I was selling rocks and wood to other players and never wanted to quit because of that

I know how it all looks, just sayin

Yeah I really don't think any noob quit because they were making too much gold.

 

[Eldrath]

To elaborate, I would kill some wisents skin them, sell the stuff to the vendor. Make 8 or so gold, buy a sator spear off the broker for x amount of gold.

Then when I learned I had to drop some fighting skills or butchery ability was when the reality of MO hit.

In short I think a combat butcher is going to be the ideal noob character.

I´m sure it´s gonna be popular. My point is that selling materials to vendors does not break that play loop but has positiv effects for the player economy.

Edit: Obviously I meant not being able to sell to vendors will not break that play loop. You hunt, you skin, but instead of selling to vendors you sell to players.

 

[Rorry]

Considering that SV had to keep bad systems running because of the insane amounts of gold that came from broken mechanics like butchery I think limiting the amount of gold is not a problem. Actually giving players the ability to get so much gold was what created problems in the first place. This was then made worse by territory control.

I have kept this in mind when I propose that NPC vendors should not take materials. It actually makes it easier for SV to control how much gold is put into the economy and thus the actual value of it. As you mention Vadda: Those mountains could be very extensive in Mortal Online 2 and yield many roaming bandits, graves (don´t forget chests, graves, barrels, urns etc. as a pure gold source), groups of skeletons.

Additionally gems could make a return, giving miners and woodcutters a very small direct gold income.

There are so many good ways to introduce gold into the economy that are much more new player friendly than butchery.

well, imho MO got copper silver and gold value for a reason, money is not intended to be easy to get and getting straight to "gold", everyone should think about a way to earn something... back in the days i had a mount shop and i earned a lot thanks to it, just accepting requests by people and going into the wild and taming.
we shouldn't focus on just killing stuff to get money, i think we can do better than that. i even remember paying people with carcasses instead of money!



exactly what i think as well, we're just too much focused on getting gold with killing beasts imho

butchering carcasses you may find something that the animal swallowed in the wilderness (a ring? a gemstone? even money lol)
miners can find gems while getting ores
woodcutters may find something in the trees when cutting down them
noobs may find gatherable goods without using skills, just by exploring the world, that can be sold to npcs

what else?

Firstly, butchery did not bring too much gold into the game, that was Sarducca.

You can't add a bunch of hoops to jump through in a system and also remove the profitability and expect it to still be a flourishing economic system.
Low tier armor materials were only by-products of a gold making economic system, without the gold far fewer people would butcher (those would mostly be filling their own or their own groups needs,) and therefore no one would want to pay the resulting high price for low tier materials when high tier ones are barely more expensive. Basic supply and demand. The NPC purchases were necessary to increase demand so that players would bother producing the materials.
If you further exacerbate this by adding a lot more gold producing npc's to kill or graves or items or whatever, you have more people with gold, yes, but since it is easier to get you have even more inflation. (Similar to the way MO1 is with Sarducca.) If I can make a hundred gold per hour immediately by killing some npc's I am not going to want to take multiple steps to break down carcasses and haul and watch timers and etc, to sell some low tier armor mats on a trade broker, most of which make worthless quality gear (this is made even worse by the fact of having only 1 character per account.)

Sorry, if I disagree with you when you say that walking around and picking things up is a better way for making gold than participating in a system within the game. Ludicrous! Those things should never have been put into the game, they are un-immersive and do nothing to make new players feel a part of the community, either.

You say killing things shouldn't be about getting gold? Very strange as you are proposing that players should sell the mats to other players instead of npc's. Those other players will be paying in gold (which has to come from somewhere, just as the gold that people used to pay you to tame mounts for them did, gold passed between people is not the same issue as how gold enters the economy, the world in this case.) Selling items that animals drop or selling the material? Why do you see that as a difference? Except the items in MO1 aren't worth farming by themselves.

It seems strange to want a system where you have to go through a big process of hunting and butchering only to have to throw away 90% of the materials because no player will buy them, while thinking that it is better to just be able to walk around and pick things up and sell them for gold.

It is a delicate balance for SV when deciding how gold should enter the world, especially when big and expensive things like boats, and TC assets, etc. are factored in. It is my opinion that there should be several ways to fit as many people's tastes as possible. I hope it is never only killing direct gold npc's, and if they want to make some things you can pick up be saleable, please let it be plants and flowers and natural things.

 

[Rorry]

To elaborate, I would kill some wisents skin them, sell the stuff to the vendor. Make 8 or so gold, buy a sator spear off the broker for x amount of gold.

Then when I learned I had to drop some fighting skills or butchery ability was when the reality of MO hit.

In short I think a combat butcher is going to be the ideal noob character.

How much better if that char can have skinning with secondary points and still get all of the materials, even if in lesser quantity?

 

[Eldrath]

Firstly, butchery did not bring too much gold into the game, that was Sarducca.

Sarducca emphasized the problem, but it existed before.

You can't add a bunch of hoops to jump through in a system and also remove the profitability and expect it to still be a flourishing economic system.
Low tier armor materials were only by-products of a gold making economic system, without the gold far fewer people would butcher (those would mostly be filling their own or their own groups needs,) and therefore no one would want to pay the resulting high price for low tier materials when high tier ones are barely more expensive. Basic supply and demand. The NPC purchases were necessary to increase demand so that players would bother producing the materials.

What exactly to you mean by low tier materials? Wool, leather and the like? Those were not really low tier, they were no-tier. I don´t remember a stage in MO1 were anyone would have to result to using them outside of the tutorial.

Which is the problem. I´d rather have SV find a use for those items then them being dumped into vendors for pitiful amounts of gold. It should not be hard. Of the top of my head leathers could be used for bags, saddles, quivers and the like. In that case the shitty statistic of the material would not matter if we assume that those crafts are less involved than armor crafting.

If you further exacerbate this by adding a lot more gold producing npc's to kill or graves or items or whatever, you have more people with gold, yes, but since it is easier to get you have even more inflation. (Similar to the way MO1 is with Sarducca.) If I can make a hundred gold per hour immediately by killing some npc's I am not going to want to take multiple steps to break down carcasses and haul and watch timers and etc, to sell some low tier armor mats on a trade broker, most of which make worthless quality gear (this is made even worse by the fact of having only 1 character per account.)

It does not exacerbate, because SV is in control of how much gold goes in and how much goes out. In a very clear and structured way. It also simplifies the process of gold entering the economy, which make it easier to calculate and manipulate.

Sorry, if I disagree with you when you say that walking around and picking things up is a better way for making gold than participating in a system within the game. Ludicrous! Those things should never have been put into the game, they are un-immersive and do nothing to make new players feel a part of the community, either.

"Participating in a system" - What does that even mean? Any time player is in Mortal they participate in some kind of system. I am proposing that the game play loop is hunt - butcher/sell carcass to a butcher - use materials to craft/sell materials to crafter.

I think it is ludicrous that you think the same vendor buying trillions of worthless bone tissue is more immersive than digging up graves to find valuebles. Actually diggin up graves is probably more realistic.

The new player feels like part of the community because he uses that gold to buy things from other players. Or get ganked/stolen from/scammed out of it. How is butchering and selling everything to a NPC vendor being part of the community?

They were introduced to offer an alternative income source that relied on players actually LEAVING town and staying outside of town.

You say killing things shouldn't be about getting gold? Very strange as you are proposing that players should sell the mats to other players instead of npc's. Those other players will be paying in gold (which has to come from somewhere, just as the gold that people used to pay you to tame mounts for them did, gold passed between people is not the same issue as how gold enters the economy, the world in this case.) Selling items that animals drop or selling the material? Why do you see that as a difference? Except the items in MO1 aren't worth farming by themselves.

Well those items were a stupid idea and never part of the original concept. Which is why you loot campodon tusks, but the amount of incisium was never reduced. Doesn´t make sense does it? SV made a lot of mistakes.

Again I´m arguing to have a clear line between activities that introduce gold into the world and those that are solely bound to the player economy.

This is beneficial since it offers an easy way to control the amount of gold in the world. It differentiates playstyles. It forces SV to look into materials and crafting since they don´t have the excuse of "vendor" materials. It is NOT set in stone that there have to be useless materials in the game. But by allowing for materials to be sold to the vendor you certainly make it more likely.

Vendor prices then also set a minimum price for materials, which might lead to players never trading those materials.

It seems strange to want a system where you have to go through a big process of hunting and butchering only to have to throw away 90% of the materials because no player will buy them, while thinking that it is better to just be able to walk around and pick things up and sell them for gold.

See above. Would you not rather have SV give every material a proper place rather than dumping them into vendors?

I do think it is better to have lots of walking around in the wilderness and less standing around in guard zones. I´m oldschool like that.

It is a delicate balance for SV when deciding how gold should enter the world, especially when big and expensive things like boats, and TC assets, etc. are factored in. It is my opinion that there should be several ways to fit as many people's tastes as possible. I hope it is never only killing direct gold npc's, and if they want to make some things you can pick up be saleable, please let it be plants and flowers and natural things.

It is delicate and that is why the ways of how gold enters the world should be as limited as possible. Those methods should also not compete with the player economy but preferable be outside of it. Both make it easier for SV to adjust.

Plants etc. are part of the crafting realm and thus should not be used for gold creation.

When you say you want several ways of gold entering the world, what do you mean? Should I be able to sell crafted weapons, armor, potions etc. to vendors too? If not, what is the difference to materials aquired from butchery?

A ton of professions were never able to "create" gold out of nothing. I merely proposing that butchery should be one of them.[/QUOTE]

 

[Vakirauta]

Well, just a small addition from me I've found in MO1 beta promo vid...

 

[Rorry]

Sarducca emphasized the problem, but it existed before.

TC soaked up all the money from butchery easily. Many people had a lot stacked up before tc, true, but I think tc cleaned it up, (not including duped stuff.)

What exactly to you mean by low tier materials? Wool, leather and the like? Those were not really low tier, they were no-tier. I don´t remember a stage in MO1 were anyone would have to result to using them outside of the tutorial.

Which is the problem. I´d rather have SV find a use for those items then them being dumped into vendors for pitiful amounts of gold. It should not be hard. Of the top of my head leathers could be used for bags, saddles, quivers and the like. In that case the shitty statistic of the material would not matter if we assume that those crafts are less involved than armor crafting.

Ok, no tier is a fine name. Using them for other crafts is one solution, but that is speculative so we can't really say if most would still be thrown away, like Gabore powder, I think it was, in MO1. It had a use in glassblowing but there was so much production and so little demand that like 99,9% was just thrown away. If they were to discontinue selling most things from the vendor that could drive demand as well.
Removing them from the game would be another, cleaner solution.

The main problem is that I do not think they have plans for any of this since persistent release is already weeks away and that would take a lot of creating. Simply letting skinning recover all types of material from a carcass, as I would like to see, is a very easy change. I know not letting a vendor buy animal mats is an easy change, too, but without a redesign it will be a detriment to the game.


It does not exacerbate, because SV is in control of how much gold goes in and how much goes out. In a very clear and structured way. It also simplifies the process of gold entering the economy, which make it easier to calculate and manipulate.

Making there be a lot more direct gold npc's increases the amount of gold, which increases inflation, which makes everything cost more gold which makes low quality gear (even commonly used things like ironbone, Mol, Incisium) cost more without increasing it's quality which makes it less desirable which makes fewer people willing to spend time on butchering it because it has low demand. For example, in MO1 when TC mines drove down the cost of steel, most everyone used steel armor, the same thing will happen if the cost of animal mats get too high. SV can manipulate the prices of animal mats on a vendor the same way they can a bandit head, as well.

"Participating in a system" - What does that even mean? Any time player is in Mortal they participate in some kind of system. I am proposing that the game play loop is hunt - butcher/sell carcass to a butcher - use materials to craft/sell materials to crafter.

Yes, that loop is what we have in MO1. The only difference is that in MO1 you can sell some waste products which makes it a more lucrative system. Walking around looting shit to sell to a vendor has no play loop, no "system," no player interaction.

I think it is ludicrous that you think the same vendor buying trillions of worthless bone tissue is more immersive than digging up graves to find valuebles. Actually diggin up graves is probably more realistic.

It isn't the selling of the bone tissue to a vendor that is immersive, it is hunting animals and selling carcasses or butchering them and selling what you can to another player, or making gear to sell to another player that is immersive, being able to vendor the waste just puts some coin immediately into your pocket, it is only a part of the larger process.
Looting a grave has no process, no system. You see what I mean?

The new player feels like part of the community because he uses that gold to buy things from other players. Or get ganked/stolen from/scammed out of it. How is butchering and selling everything to a NPC vendor being part of the community?

Buying things with gold from a trade broker doesn't make a newb feel like part of a community. Hunting and selling carcs or materials directly to a player is more likely to do that, I think you agree. I simply think letting him make some immediate gold by selling waste parts is good, too.


They were introduced to offer an alternative income source that relied on players actually LEAVING town and staying outside of town.

Skinning or butchering in the field rather than at a table in a safezone would do this very well.

Well those items were a stupid idea and never part of the original concept. Which is why you loot campodon tusks, but the amount of incisium was never reduced. Doesn´t make sense does it? SV made a lot of mistakes.

Again I´m arguing to have a clear line between activities that introduce gold into the world and those that are solely bound to the player economy.

This will be great with a completely rebuilt system, but without that it will just result in tons of materials being thrown away.

This is beneficial since it offers an easy way to control the amount of gold in the world. It differentiates playstyles. It forces SV to look into materials and crafting since they don´t have the excuse of "vendor" materials. It is NOT set in stone that there have to be useless materials in the game. But by allowing for materials to be sold to the vendor you certainly make it more likely.
Vendor prices then also set a minimum price for materials, which might lead to players never trading those materials.
See above. Would you not rather have SV give every material a proper place rather than dumping them into vendors?

Yes, if the system were built that way.

I do think it is better to have lots of walking around in the wilderness and less standing around in guard zones. I´m oldschool like that.



It is delicate and that is why the ways of how gold enters the world should be as limited as possible. Those methods should also not compete with the player economy but preferable be outside of it. Both make it easier for SV to adjust.

I do not think it competes with the player economy at this point at all, in MO1. Unless they add a lot of new crafting it won't compete in MO2 either.

Plants etc. are part of the crafting realm and thus should not be used for gold creation.

Not according to SV, some had no or no known crafting value. They were put into the game for easy beginner gold.

When you say you want several ways of gold entering the world, what do you mean? Should I be able to sell crafted weapons, armor, potions etc. to vendors too? If not, what is the difference to materials aquired from butchery?

No, the difference is that those materials are waste products which will only be thrown away if they can't be sold to vendors.

A ton of professions were never able to "create" gold out of nothing. I merely proposing that butchery should be one of them.
As a profession, butchery is like mineral extraction. You are trying to fit it with armor crafting or something instead. We sell by-products from mineral extraction too.

[/QUOTE]

 

[KermyWormy]

[/QUOTE]
Give it up, the vendors buying all your crap that should have no or low value generating uncapped amounts of gold is bad game design.

In a "player driven economy" if you're main interaction in your craft or trade is selling to an NPC vendor then somebody messed up

 

[Rorry]

Give it up, the vendors buying all your crap that should have no or low value generating uncapped amounts of gold is bad game design.

In a "player driven economy" if you're main interaction in your craft or trade is selling to an NPC vendor then somebody messed up
[/QUOTE]
Selling everything to a vendor only became the point of butchery with breeding pens, before that and since then the useful stuff is turned into gear or sold to other players. Why is this source of gold uncapped and others not? It has the same cap and SV has the same ability to control spawn rates that they do for other NPC's. Why is selling one thing to a vendor, trash mats, not player driven economy, while selling bandit heads to a vendor is?

If it's a completely player driven economy that you are after then you need to remove coinage entirely and make everyone barter for everything. The reason coinage was invented though, is because of how inefficient bartering is.

Also, why are some people so against selling butcher trash to a vendor, but don't mention doing the same with extraction trash (which has been in the game longer?)

 

[Vakirauta]

Also, why are some people so against selling butcher trash to a vendor, but don't mention doing the same with extraction trash (which has been in the game longer?)

I'm against that aswell but that's not the topic. Somehow I understand your point of view, it was fast and easy for me to go to the nearest outpost in jungle, butcher and sell to the vendor standing few feet from the table, but they promissed that the economy will be player driven and as I said before, not selling anything crafting related is good to have it in health.

Carcasses could be enough for new players to get them to vendors and the same is for rings, heads and other items like those.

Leather, wool and other 'thrash' mats? Wasted and forgotten by SV...

Let's remember that this is still a hardcore game and let's not make it too easy atleast in making money by pumping coins from NPCs.

I don't have much more to say, that's all from me. If they leave it as it was before - well, alright, let it be, I'll play anyway, only thinking from time to time that's a waste of making Nave's and local markets better places.