Bring back longer extraction timers

[Rhias]

Do you have an alternative suggestion? Considering the fact you do not have to do extraction at all. Or all the time.

I´m not seeing any counter arguments other than "it´s not fun" (subjective) and that it´s somehow not a valid game mechanic. Which it is, since in a sandbox you have to limit resource creation somehow.

I know, always being destructive...

Actually I'm not against increasing the time. But the mechanics need to be changed together with it...

Give me a (TC) building where I can put serveral stacks of raw material in. And let me pick up the result in the end. If it takes a hour for all to process I'm fine with it.
But bind it to the building, and not to the player. So I don't need to be logged in to process it.
And don't drop it to the ground and force me to pick it up every x minutes due to despawn.

If someone want's to steal that shit out of my grinder I'm fine with hit. He better not get caught doing so! If he feels like carrying it for half a hour to the next town he deserves it. But make those items un-deleteable for a long timer (half an hour?) to get rid of naked griefers that pick that shit up and delete it instantly...

Would be pretty epic if somebody steals from the extractors and the mounted forces leave to intercept the thief on the way to the next town.

Remembers me of the granum thieves, that stole more than they could carry!

 

[Eldrath]

bro why are you wanna change a symptom if you can change the cause of the symptom with the problem?

THe limit of resources can be balanced of the outcome so you dont have to stand infront of damn fucking timers, while having the same outcome and it would feel more rewarding and less unfair.

or do you disagree, and say that would a shitty solution, (and remember it wouldn't change the balance in anyway if you substract the estimated amount of time away from the output). so how on this planet earth would that make a resource/gold inbalance tell me im interrested.

Right, so in your idea instead of processing 10 stacks of granum for 500 steel in 60 minutes I would process 10 stacks of granum into 50 steel in 6 minutes.

So instead of being able to use multiple machines and make efficient use of my time I have to mine 10x as much.

This does not sound appealing. You basically remove extraction as a profession by making it into a skillpoint sink rather than an activity. I have met many people who actually liked extraction because it´s something productive that does not take all your brain power and twitch muscles. You can chat with your mates, you can make trade deals, you can figure out new recipes. All things important to a sandbox and all should be considered game play.

The problem I see here is that many people who did extraction because they had to are not giving this enough thought. Having many meaningful professions is a good thing in a non-dead game. Having low intensity profession that do not require twitch skill is a good thing. In a one-character per account game you have to think creatively. Alt-tabbing your extractor would be absolutely terrible.

MO2 is a chance to start over. Stop pushing in your trauma from MO1.

I know, always being destructive...

Actually I'm not against increasing the time. But the mechanics need to be changed together with it...

Give me a (TC) building where I can put serveral stacks of raw material in. And let me pick up the result in the end. If it takes a hour for all to process I'm fine with it.
But bind it to the building, and not to the player. So I don't need to be logged in to process it.
And don't drop it to the ground and force me to pick it up every x minutes due to despawn.

If someone want's to steal that shit out of my grinder I'm fine with hit. He better not get caught doing so! If he feels like carrying it for half a hour to the next town he deserves it. But make those items un-deleteable for a long timer (half an hour?) to get rid of naked griefers that pick that shit up and delete it instantly...

Would be pretty epic if somebody steals from the extractors and the mounted forces leave to intercept the thief on the way to the next town.

Remembers me of the granum thieves, that stole more than they could carry!

The discussion is not very productive considering that multiple systems change in MO2 and people are making the same old arguments.

So you want to limit a profession to landowners aka big guilds. That does not sound promising, especially considering at launch there won´t be any TC. Also why do you want to create a profession where people are logged out instead of actively doing something? Your scenario could happen, but having these thing happen in place like Cave camp is more interesting than a. inside your palisade (yikes) or b. the guard zone.

I´m not saying this cannot happen in the future. But for extraction as a profession it´s not feasible.


I would also like to point out that this solely about rock extraction, not butchery. Butchery I never got behind and I think should be changed. Standing in front a table without any interaction (not catalyst, no moving, not different methods) is a shit mechanic.

 

[Livingshade]

MORE TIMERS=MORE FUN what is this BULLSHIT mate

 

[Eldrath]

MORE TIMERS=MORE FUN what is this BULLSHIT mate

Actually it´s LONGER timers, not MORE timers.

Just the kind of reasonable argument I would expect from MO1 vet though.

You do realize that mining has a timer? Attacking has a timer as well. How about we remove every timer and everything happens instantly at the same time. I guess a microsecond is the limit of your average attention span?

How about everyone put down how much time you are willing to spend on different activities.

 

[Rhias]

...
So you want to limit a profession to landowners aka big guilds. That does not sound promising, especially considering at launch there won´t be any TC. Also why do you want to create a profession where people are logged out instead of actively doing something? Your scenario could happen, but having these thing happen in place like Cave camp is more interesting than a. inside your palisade (yikes) or b. the guard zone.

I´m not saying this cannot happen in the future. But for extraction as a profession it´s not feasible.

There are some thoughts I had in mind while suggesting this.
MO2 has such a huge world. You don't want anyone to just cluster around the towns.
On the other site you also don't want to scatter it to much.

My suggestions would aid both to some extend. Players would explore the world and build outposts. But not everyone would do his own thing.
Like minded players would come together and form extraction & farming villages. Every extractor would profit from having more appliences to use around.

In MO1 every player did his own thing when extracting. Cooperation was not really supported by the mechanics. Also within guilds real collaboration (such as e.g. shared resources) were rare. Even if they farmed together everything got divided afterwards. Most players kept their own stock of everything. If you take Last Oasis as an example guilds/communitys share a lot more goods, than the selfishness we got in MO.

With my suggestion an extractor could put the materials in, and some other people, who isn't interested in extraction could collect the stuff with his molva and store it into some kind of guild-chests. Or the next extractor picks it up when reaching the building next time.

I assume for quite a few veterans it would be difficult to adapt to the idea of needing a community, and working together.

And of cause when I talk about outposts I don't mean perfectly walled off places, like we got in MO1.
More of a cluster of a few houses and structures that are placed close together.

 

[Eldrath]

There are some thoughts I had in mind while suggesting this.
MO2 has such a huge world. You don't want anyone to just cluster around the towns.
On the other site you also don't want to scatter it to much.

My suggestions would aid both to some extend. Players would explore the world and build outposts. But not everyone would do his own thing.
Like minded players would come together and form extraction & farming villages. Every extractor would profit from having more appliences to use around.

In MO1 every player did his own thing when extracting. Cooperation was not really supported by the mechanics. Also within guilds real collaboration (such as e.g. shared resources) were rare. Even if they farmed together everything got divided afterwards. Most players kept their own stock of everything. If you take Last Oasis as an example guilds/communitys share a lot more goods, than the selfishness we got in MO.

With my suggestion an extractor could put the materials in, and some other people, who isn't interested in extraction could collect the stuff with his molva and store it into some kind of guild-chests. Or the next extractor picks it up when reaching the building next time.

I assume for quite a few veterans it would be difficult to adapt to the idea of needing a community, and working together.

And of cause when I talk about outposts I don't mean perfectly walled off places, like we got in MO1.
More of a cluster of a few houses and structures that are placed close together.

Right, I understand your idea better now. It´s sorta like the breeding system, except resources are accessible. The problem I see is that small groups and solo players most likely won´t have access to this system. When you say outpost I´m assuming you mean something along the lines of a houses in MO1, so a pretty substantial investment. It would put the resource generation behind a paywall (hundreds of gold) and in the hand of guilds that can hold down territory (with or without walls) and puts everyone else at their mercy. When basic resource generation (steel) is tied to assets it will enforce large alliances.

It would be cool if extraction could be some kind of group effort though. Not sure how to archive that without making it all about building structures that are used by a guild though. Maybe an outpost is something put up for say ... 24 hours and without a huge resource investment. Then you can use it in the way you describe it. That would open opportunities for small groups.

You´d still need something for noobs and solos though. They cannot be expected to build assets. Unless we are talking something like in Atlas, which takes all of 3 minutes to far for. But then the world will be littered with trash... Not a fan.

How would we get steel till TC is adapted for MO2?

 

[Livingshade]

How about we remove every timer and everything happens instantly at the same time.

OK!

 

[Rhias]

Right, I understand your idea better now. It´s sorta like the breeding system, except resources are accessible. The problem I see is that small groups and solo players most likely won´t have access to this system. When you say outpost I´m assuming you mean something along the lines of a houses in MO1, so a pretty substantial investment. It would put the resource generation behind a paywall (hundreds of gold) and in the hand of guilds that can hold down territory (with or without walls) and puts everyone else at their mercy. When basic resource generation (steel) is tied to assets it will enforce large alliances.

It would be cool if extraction could be some kind of group effort though. Not sure how to archive that without making it all about building structures that are used by a guild though. Maybe an outpost is something put up for say ... 24 hours and without a huge resource investment. Then you can use it in the way you describe it. That would open opportunities for small groups.

You´d still need something for noobs and solos though. They cannot be expected to build assets. Unless we are talking something like in Atlas, which takes all of 3 minutes to far for. But then the world will be littered with trash... Not a fan.

How would we get steel till TC is adapted for MO2?

In MO1 we got portable devices. Officially they are no TC, cause they're older. But to be honest: they are kind of mini - TC.
Maybe you could do some different tiers of TC.

- small devices, similar to portable devices in MO1. Every new player should be able to afford them. Limited lifetime of only a few hours.
- "temporary" TC, that requires low investment, but lasts only limited time (one week?)
- real TC that is supposed to last long.

That could also work out well for butchery. A small group of players decide for the weekend to go on a hunting trip in some area. They build a temporary TC (like a hunting hut) that enables them processing of carcass and temporary storage of resources.
At the end of the weekend they will transport their goods to the town and the hut will decay.

 

[Tehmudjin]

I dont know what you guys think of when you use the word "minigame". I dont want some scrappy looking puzzle crap that appears on the screen and ruin the immersion of the game just to decrease timers.

What I WOULD like is to be able to manualy work the extraction machines. Lets say you have to fire up the Furnace yourself, use different kinds of woods for fuel, pump air into it for more heat, add the materials and catalysts at the right time, open valves to control the heat etc, so instead of mindless waiting, extraction requires knowledge and careful management of the extraction equipment.

Idd also like to see different qualities in extracted materials. A perfectly extracted and refined batch of steel should have higher quality then a poorly made one, not just be less material.

The same could be made for crafting. Heat the metal, form the blade etc.

This would make extraction and crafting skill based and instead of just staring at timers and go AFK, it would take real skill and knowledge and allow players to become true master crafters.

 

[Eldrath]

I dont know what you guys think of when you use the word "minigame". I dont want some scrappy looking puzzle crap that appears on the screen and ruin the immersion of the game just to decrease timers.

What I WOULD like is to be able to manualy work the extraction machines. Lets say you have to fire up the Furnace yourself, use different kinds of woods for fuel, pump air into it for more heat, add the materials and catalysts at the right time, open valves to control the heat etc, so instead of mindless waiting, extraction requires knowledge and careful management of the extraction equipment.

Idd also like to see different qualities in extracted materials. A perfectly extracted and refined batch of steel should have higher quality then a poorly made one, not just be less material.

The same could be made for crafting. Heat the metal, form the blade etc.

This would make extraction and crafting skill based and instead of just staring at timers and go AFK, it would take real skill and knowledge and allow players to become true master crafters.

Yes, that is what I mean by mini game. Actually includes timers as well (waiting metal is the right temperature etc.) - so it got the best of both worlds.

I think it should be like this or a controlled timer. Doing it manually should yield better results.

In MO1 we got portable devices. Officially they are no TC, cause they're older. But to be honest: they are kind of mini - TC.
Maybe you could do some different tiers of TC.

- small devices, similar to portable devices in MO1. Every new player should be able to afford them. Limited lifetime of only a few hours.
- "temporary" TC, that requires low investment, but lasts only limited time (one week?)
- real TC that is supposed to last long.

That could also work out well for butchery. A small group of players decide for the weekend to go on a hunting trip in some area. They build a temporary TC (like a hunting hut) that enables them processing of carcass and temporary storage of resources.
At the end of the weekend they will transport their goods to the town and the hut will decay.

Yes, camps I can see working. Not sure about the timers on those appliances though. I think they should probably work the same as any other that is static in the world. All resources in a camp must be lootable though. Which then makes long timers like you suggested bothersome. Waiting around for 2h to finish a couple of stacks isn´t very fun.

But I guess you could just combine your camp-idea with the above idea and flexible timers.

I just find butchery in the MO1 iteration extremely boring. Not sure on how to fix it. I´d definitely involve more knowledge (maybe additives like salt) and maybe some form of test. Like cutting away the pelt precisely or something. But then again that is a thread onto itself.

 

[ThaBadMan]

The better you do the minigame the faster you work.

If you just stand afk you can have a timer. Why not hand both crowds a way.

 

[Phen]

Talking about "minigames" i would say similar to Fable or something. Where you pound out the metal that is already in shape of an item. Then depending on how accurate and fast you are should determine how long it takes to make it. That would be my idea of how a good minigame would fit in MO. Just like walking up to it now and pressing E. only difference is after you put in the mats you have to do some little activity to complete the process. By doing the process perfectly would give bonus', by speeding through just gives you a basic item. This could easily be done with every type of crafting to make it fun in their own ways.

-Phen

 

[Speznat]

Right, so in your idea instead of processing 10 stacks of granum for 500 steel in 60 minutes I would process 10 stacks of granum into 50 steel in 6 minutes.

So instead of being able to use multiple machines and make efficient use of my time I have to mine 10x as much.

This does not sound appealing. You basically remove extraction as a profession by making it into a skillpoint sink rather than an activity. I have met many people who actually liked extraction because it´s something productive that does not take all your brain power and twitch muscles. You can chat with your mates, you can make trade deals, you can figure out new recipes. All things important to a sandbox and all should be considered game play.

The problem I see here is that many people who did extraction because they had to are not giving this enough thought. Having many meaningful professions is a good thing in a non-dead game. Having low intensity profession that do not require twitch skill is a good thing. In a one-character per account game you have to think creatively. Alt-tabbing your extractor would be absolutely terrible.

MO2 is a chance to start over. Stop pushing in your trauma from MO1.



The discussion is not very productive considering that multiple systems change in MO2 and people are making the same old arguments.

So you want to limit a profession to landowners aka big guilds. That does not sound promising, especially considering at launch there won´t be any TC. Also why do you want to create a profession where people are logged out instead of actively doing something? Your scenario could happen, but having these thing happen in place like Cave camp is more interesting than a. inside your palisade (yikes) or b. the guard zone.

I´m not saying this cannot happen in the future. But for extraction as a profession it´s not feasible.


I would also like to point out that this solely about rock extraction, not butchery. Butchery I never got behind and I think should be changed. Standing in front a table without any interaction (not catalyst, no moving, not different methods) is a shit mechanic.

im ver yimpressed that you didn't understand that:

just for example:
60minutes farming and extractiong together 60mins = 10 Stacks = 500 Steel
the new way no timer 59mins farming and 1 min extracting together 60min = 12-14Stacks = 500 steel

both used 60mins of time, and both had the same outcome compared to time, but for the player it feels more fair and no bullshit timers.
no insta shit, and that logic need to be for other proffesions too, thats the only solution that the game dont feel like pain in the ass for new players. and it feel more reasonable.

sry but i cant explain that any more simple than that.
only best solution for that, no bulshit timers, no unfair feeling. best for all.

 

[Amadman]

im ver yimpressed that you didn't understand that:

just for example:
60minutes farming and extractiong together 60mins = 10 Stacks = 500 Steel
the new way no timer 59mins farming and 1 min extracting together 60min = 12-14Stacks = 500 steel

both used 60mins of time, and both had the same outcome compared to time, but for the player it feels more fair and no bullshit timers.
no insta shit, and that logic need to be for other proffesions too, thats the only solution that the game dont feel like pain in the ass for new players. and it feel more reasonable.

sry but i cant explain that any more simple than that.
only best solution for that, no bulshit timers, no unfair feeling. best for all.

What about the player that buys the ore and is able to process 500 steel/min ?

 

[Eldrath]

im ver yimpressed that you didn't understand that:

just for example:
60minutes farming and extractiong together 60mins = 10 Stacks = 500 Steel
the new way no timer 59mins farming and 1 min extracting together 60min = 12-14Stacks = 500 steel

both used 60mins of time, and both had the same outcome compared to time, but for the player it feels more fair and no bullshit timers.
no insta shit, and that logic need to be for other proffesions too, thats the only solution that the game dont feel like pain in the ass for new players. and it feel more reasonable.

sry but i cant explain that any more simple than that.
only best solution for that, no bulshit timers, no unfair feeling. best for all.

Again, you just removed a profession. It would be simpler if you mined steel etc. directly in that example.

Timers create the incentive to use multiple machines, use time efficiently and defend yourself if attacked. If we had minigames like suggested that would be an alternative to hasten the process at the cost of standing still.

Your "solution" does not actually solve the problem, it just removes a profession and a system. I think having complex systems is part of MOs draw, you obviously want it as simple as possible. Both have merit, look at the mobile game market. It´s much bigger than sandbox MMOs.

 

[Zbuciorn]

I dont know what you guys think of when you use the word "minigame". I dont want some scrappy looking puzzle crap that appears on the screen and ruin the immersion of the game just to decrease timers.

What I WOULD like is to be able to manualy work the extraction machines. Lets say you have to fire up the Furnace yourself, use different kinds of woods for fuel, pump air into it for more heat, add the materials and catalysts at the right time, open valves to control the heat etc, so instead of mindless waiting, extraction requires knowledge and careful management of the extraction equipment.

Idd also like to see different qualities in extracted materials. A perfectly extracted and refined batch of steel should have higher quality then a poorly made one, not just be less material.

The same could be made for crafting. Heat the metal, form the blade etc.

This would make extraction and crafting skill based and instead of just staring at timers and go AFK, it would take real skill and knowledge and allow players to become true master crafters.

I would be nice if all the furnaces and fireplaces in towns needed wood to be added by players.

 

[Speznat]

Again, you just removed a profession. It would be simpler if you mined steel etc. directly in that example.

Timers create the incentive to use multiple machines, use time efficiently and defend yourself if attacked. If we had minigames like suggested that would be an alternative to hasten the process at the cost of standing still.

Your "solution" does not actually solve the problem, it just removes a profession and a system. I think having complex systems is part of MOs draw, you obviously want it as simple as possible. Both have merit, look at the mobile game market. It´s much bigger than sandbox MMOs.

yeah you wrote professions with complex systems.

so for you timers and mindlessly standing afk while watching youtube is a better option or what?
minigames are macro and exploidable by people who know programms to do this, thats just shiut, than anyone with IT advantage would have ingame advantage over everyone else, thats not a good idea. at all. Nor does a minigame with with immersion. unless its real animations with real shit to do.
but than again, it woul be easy botable, so just no.

What about the player that buys the ore and is able to process 500 steel/min ?

weres the problem? it would have nearly the same prices as the processed mats, but skill is still required so yeah it would costs a little more., the price would go on the time spend. like every resources and every trade ever in history you trad etime to time, money to time and time to money, so wheres the problem?

you invest 60mins in the first way
and oyu invest 60 mins in the second way but without timers

and in the end you have the exact same results. i dont see any problem here.
one more hassle get eliminated while still have the same outcome. it would feel more fair and less like boring shit you have to stand there mindelessly.

 

[Speznat]

becuase the actually resource aquiring is sometimes fun and stuff.

But extraction timers and afk mechanics were oyu can watch movies while butchering 100 stacks is just bad game design, luckily they add the qoue that made it a little bit better because its annoying as fuck to tab in and place the next stack. hopefully they came up with some fun in MO2 and no shitty timers. that drove me away from playing extractor and stuff. i tried it multiply times weeks long until the motivation dropped to 0 because it just feels punishing and unfair unessary shit.

you could mask the problem easily without changing the outcome/result, so it would change nothing in economy, it only would eliminating the boring shit task noone wants to do.

or do you ever stand infront of grinder and said to yourself yes thats a good invested sunday sitting infront of a grinder for 4hours, yeah thats fun.
better 4hours mining granum than you have a better feelign of progress and stuff. 100% better than timers and shit.

 

[Eldrath]

becuase the actually resource aquiring is sometimes fun and stuff.

But extraction timers and afk mechanics were oyu can watch movies while butchering 100 stacks is just bad game design, luckily they add the qoue that made it a little bit better because its annoying as fuck to tab in and place the next stack. hopefully they came up with some fun in MO2 and no shitty timers. that drove me away from playing extractor and stuff. i tried it multiply times weeks long until the motivation dropped to 0 because it just feels punishing and unfair unessary shit.

you could mask the problem easily without changing the outcome/result, so it would change nothing in economy, it only would eliminating the boring shit task noone wants to do.

or do you ever stand infront of grinder and said to yourself yes thats a good invested sunday sitting infront of a grinder for 4hours, yeah thats fun.
better 4hours mining granum than you have a better feelign of progress and stuff. 100% better than timers and shit.

A. The fact that you put rock extraction and butchery into the same pot shows that you have not read the suggestion or my posts. Those are two completely different things. An extraction appliance works by itself, you HAVE to stand at a butchery table.

B. You mix in your personal preference and claim anything that does not fit that is bad game design. That is not a good way of designing systems that attract different players.

C. You CHOOSE to sit in front of grinder for 4 hours on a sunday. That wasn´t necessary at all. I never did that and also never ran out of metals.

Again, you are stuck in the mindset of how thing were in MO1 instead thinking about the changes in MO2 that are relevant:

1. One character per account - people will only do things they like or that are useful und thus satisfying.

2. Any character can run/ride/fight just as good as the next - no more extractors/butchers/crafters that are easy victims.

3. Another chance at a community/player driven economy - players will fill different niches to earn money. You don´t like managing extraction? Sell your rock to someone who does. Give it to your guildmate who does.

Over the years of playing MO I´ve met a lot of guys who liked doing extraction for different reasons. Also met a lot who hated it as much as you do. The same could be said for any activity in MO, even PvP. Cutting out choices will make MO2 less fun for anyone who enjoyed it before. And probably not affect your gameplay at all.

 

[Speznat]

1. One character per account - people will only do things they like or that are useful und thus satisfying.

Funny so if you need steel to make Action XY and noone sells steel for example, youre not forced to do that? mh sounds NICE

2. Any character can run/ride/fight just as good as the next - no more extractors/butchers/crafters that are easy victims.

Thats 100% true, and i complained about that how in MO1 was since 11 years and now they finally remake the shit system. Because maybe the new is more enjoyable dont know.

3. Another chance at a community/player driven economy - players will fill different niches to earn money. You don´t like managing extraction? Sell your rock to someone who does. Give it to your guildmate who does.

Again, what would change?, WHAT TELL ME!
if you have the same outcome, you would just shift the time to the gathering part away from the standing there doing nothing part. Its the same time you need. WTF do you mean.

Over the years of playing MO I´ve met a lot of guys who liked doing extraction for different reasons. Also met a lot who hated it as much as you do. The same could be said for any activity in MO, even PvP. Cutting out choices will make MO2 less fun for anyone who enjoyed it before. And probably not affect your gameplay at all.

I know.

But do you call standing afk/doign extraction while watching youtube videos, Gameplay? hell no.

With minigames, yeah probably interesting but exploidable. With animations and same order everytime boring as fuck after the 1000 time. and axploidable. and on top SUre if you dont like the grind you can stop and doing something else play rust for example were the grind feels atleast fair.

But if you need something youre forced due to grind that makes task over complicated. best example are the Crafting tables that can only be used in houses, yeah nice idea, but just a pain in the ass that should not be nessary. its unimmersive, why not standing the table right in fornt of you anywhere and start doing your shit, same with field butchery the tables should be craftable why the fuck not its just a pain in the ass of the player for no obvious reason. its only there to annoy and fuck us up, why not make the craftign of it hard than its not something you can easy make and still have the time wasted that you waste to get to troll cave but atleast it makes more sense. That would be reasonable balance.

The thing is Grind need to be Enjoyable like in GTAOnline or something.
Were the Grind is fair make sense. THey need to Give the grind more common sense and more FUN.

Otherwise people are always forced like in MO1 to do boring shit ass tasks for hours just to have 10mins fun. I dont say Insta anything.
I just ment a reasonable grind that gives you progress in what you doing. And that is not a totally pain in the ass and stuff.

but anyway we can talk her ein forums our asses off until some SV memeberr explicit Talks to us and say to 100% exactly how it will/should work the whole crafting system.

Right now we all play the "wish well" and the guessing game at the same time. its grinding on my gears, i wanna know what henrik and sebastian have done for the new crafting/job system.

And i really hope from the bottom my heart that it will not be the same pain in the ass MO1 was.