Beta Patch Notes 0.1.0.93 Discussion

[Morwen]

Hybrid haven't been meta since 2012, Thursar are stronger than ever as a footfighters high damage/high stam/high HP/high def etc that's probabky why "nobody is crying".

If thursars are stronger than ever why the majority of footfighters are khurite khurite? they are slow as fuck and the passive reg clade make them bad at receiving heals and in latest 2 patches they have been nerfed 2 times already.

They are good at 1 vs 1 duels (not chasing ofc) and even for pushing on group fights I prefer dwarves.

I doubt anyone cares about rerolling, it's more the fact that a certain race and play style is getting put in the ground by SV and their merry band of fat wizards.

Hitting the same with 50 int and 100 int was straight bullshit and something everybody knew it was going to be fixed.

This is a beta and MO2, it has nothing to do with MO1, get over it, new builds will appear, sweaters, we have already many valid builds with humans, oghmirs, etc that were non existent on MO1.

One advice, stop being toxic over build changes because this is just the beginning, many changes more will come before release, next stat curve tweaked will be probably DEX/foot speed curve.

 

[Kaemik]

I like the idea of hybrids being a good build personally. We're in a magical universe, if 50+% of the melee builds also dabble in magic. Fine, that's cool IMO. Melee heavy foot-fighter is like vanilla ice cream and missionary position. They're great but they get really uninteresting if that's all you do for too long.

Personally I want hybrids not only be very strong, but have a ton of variety eventually. There are 12 schools of magic planned for the game. I think it would be cool to see those open up a ton of new hybrid possibilities. Necromancer death knight builds (As in a hybrid-necro, MO1 DKs should never return IMO) Animism mages that tear people up in bear form. Staff magic sounds like it was pretty-much made for hybrids. Harmonism paladins etc.

What I wanted from this curve was 100 INT dex mages to be made relevant, not hybrids to be made nearly useless. The only hybrid builds that still sound good anymore are mounted hybrids. And even those may be trash depending on how easy they are to dismount because they only remain relevant by dumping dex.

 

[Kebek]

Your magic is only as good as how much you're willing to invest in it. Want stronger spells? Sacrifice more melee.
You can he a hybrid that focuses on melee and only do corrupts and weak heals or you could be a hybrid that focuses on spells but won't do much in melee.
The choice is yours. Can't be great at both but you can be subpar at both.

 

[Kaemik]

Your magic is only as good as how much you're willing to invest in it. Want stronger spells? Sacrifice more melee.
You can he a hybrid that focuses on melee and only do corrupts or you could be a hybrid that focuses on spells but won't do much in melee.
The choice is yours. Can't be great at both but you can be subpar at both.

Hybrids were subpar at magic and melee before. 50 INT was usable in the old system, not great. And on the strength end, generally the races you used for hybrid were really high attribute total races while the races good for melee tended to be really low attribute total ones like Thursar and Ohgmir. Even pure Khal isn't a great hybrid if you don't cut it with some Tindremene and I maintain Khurites were an absolutely horrid pick for hybrids because of their trash attribute totals.

So good hybrids ran weaker races with higher attribute totals like Tindremene and Veela and did mediocre damage with both melee and spells. I guess that wasn't sacrifice enough?

Heck, with hybrid being the only thing a Tindremene can do well, you may as well delete them from the game if mounted hybrids don't end up being good. About as useful now as a half-Sarducaan Thursar.

 

[Archiel]

If thursars are stronger than ever why the majority of footfighters are khurite khurite? they are slow as fuck and the passive reg clade make them bad at receiving heals and in latest 2 patches they have been nerfed 2 times already.

They are good at 1 vs 1 duels (not chasing ofc) and even for pushing on group fights I prefer dwarves.



Hitting the same with 50 int and 100 int was straight bullshit and something everybody knew it was going to be fixed.

This is a beta and MO2, it has nothing to do with MO1, get over it, new builds will appear, sweaters, we have already many valid builds with humans, oghmirs, etc that were non existent on MO1.

One advice, stop being toxic over build changes because this is just the beginning, many changes more will come before release, next stat curve tweaked will be probably DEX/foot speed curve.

It's like going in circles with you guys, no one is suggesting that 100 int shouldn't have done more damage than 50 int, we are saying the linear base was set too low.
Lol toxic? Ok you're ten ply bud

It's not a build change it's a race and build nerf, at this rate small scale pvp will be only thought of as a distant memory, that suits the zerglings just fine I know but SV better remove skillbased from the description lol

 

[Kaemik]

If thursars are stronger than ever why the majority of footfighters are khurite khurite?

Because people can't math. A full Khur fighter is 1.7% faster than a full Kallard. Meanwhile the Kallard has about 7% more damage and 5% more health. And they get these greater physical stats without really harming psyche because their attribute total is higher too. By the numbers, Kallards are absolutely superior to Khurites. It makes zero sense they are as popular as they are beyond antiquated beliefs that speed is king. 1.7% is not going to allow you to break a stickyback when a Kallard eats you for breakfast with higher damage and health. Beyond that they have the same stam and higher max armor weight. Just straight better, but speed and Khurites were better in MO1 so here we are with everyone and their dog running a bad race.

I take this alone as proof that a huge portion of the community just mimic whatever they feel the meta is rather than thinking for themselves.

Also worth adding that Ohgmir and Thursar gifts have been broken for forever. And as these gifts get fixed, these races grow in popularity.

 

[Morwen]

Because people can't math. A full Khur fighter is 1.7% faster than a full Kallard. Meanwhile the Kallard has about 7% more damage and 5% more health. And they get these greater physical stats without really harming psyche because their attribute total is higher too. By the numbers, Kallards are absolutely superior to Khurites. It makes zero sense they are as popular as they are beyond antiquated beliefs that speed is king. 1.7% is not going to allow you to break a stickyback when a Kallard eats you for breakfast with higher damage and health. Beyond that they have the same stam and higher max armor weight. Just straight better, but speed and Khurites were better in MO1 so here we are with everyone and their dog running a bad race.

To me it looks like you guys dont play the game...

I dont give a shit even if the kallard has 20% more damage bonus than a khurite, I can win a duel against a thursar/kallard just by charging in, then moving out, he misses the swing, then I charge in again and I hit him without him being able to parry, its so easy, that 1.7% speed is enough but you need to have hands.

I have been able to chase down thursars, oghmirs, etc I dont see those builds viable for small scale pvp at all.

People are not stupid lmao, they are not using them because they prefer a more versatile build like humans not because they cannot math.

It's like going in circles with you guys, no one is suggesting that 100 int shouldn't have done more damage than 50 int, we are saying the linear base was set too low.
Lol toxic? Ok you're ten ply bud

It's not a build change it's a race and build nerf, at this rate small scale pvp will be only thought of as a distant memory, that suits the zerglings just fine I know but SV better remove skillbased from the description lol

Nerf was about to come, was too much nerf? maybe, but knowing the community people would have cried even for 10 less damage average.

There are actually 2 nerfs here, int curve and nerfing not charge attacks.

Many people were running hybrids 50 int with light spears/swords hitting by 30 without charging and that build was absolutely bullshit, I am glad is gone.

 

[Kaemik]

To me it looks like you guys dont play the game...

...People are not stupid lmao, they are not using them because they prefer a more versatile build like humans not because they cannot math.

Pure Kallard is a human. I rest my case.

 

[Morwen]

Pure Kallard is a human. I rest my case.

I meant khurite human... but my point stands, popular builds are the more versatile ones not because people cannot math.

 

[Kaemik]

1.7% speed doesn't give you more versatility. It's an illusionary speed advantage for people who can't math. If you're beating people on slower builds it's not because your faster, it's because you're better.

5% more health, 7% more damage. A tad more max-armor weight. These are not advantages a better player cannot overcome. But if two equally skilled opponents fight on a Khurite and Kallard, the advantage goes to the Kallard.

Don't believe me? Starting right infront of them, turn and run from a Kallard in a straight line and see how many hits they get in before you are outside their melee range (Spoiler, if they're an accurate striker you'll probably be dead)

Then tell me that speed difference allows you to do anything with dancing around outside their strike range you couldn't do on a Kallard as well. People see this big difference in Dex and assume it does more than it really does. That's why Khurites are meta.

 

[Morwen]

1.7% speed doesn't give you more versatility. It's an illusionary speed advantage for people who can't math. If you're beating people on slower builds it's not because your faster, it's because you're better.

No, they create different playstyles, thursar/kallards/oghmirs and slower footfighter builds rely more on success parry or straight using blut weapons to smash through parries.

Veela/khurite footfighter warriors rely more on sprinting in, baiting, then success on hitting right after enemy swing animation when is unable to parry.

You play the one you like more, not just the one which has better "maths".

Now for example Henrik is talking about poison for daggers, that would create other kind of dagger hybrids or shield mages, etc.

That's why I dont understand the hybrid nerf complain because it had actually non sense and with all the magic schools, weapons, weakspots, poisons, bows, MC, MA tons of new builds will appear.

People should stop crying because a build where in the end game you could no charge swing with cronite sword, wear light cronite pieces, nuke as a mage and be a viable killer on water. That build was. Pure. Bullshit.

 

[Kaemik]

I get what you are saying. But the difference in playstyle is you assuming you're meaningfully faster and playing differently because of it. If I somehow nerfed your speed by 1.7% but your numbers didn't show that, I highly doubt you would even notice.

You like the idea of having more speed, but you don't really seem to be grasping how insignificant a 1.7% difference really is.

I might make some videos of different builds running out of stickyback range of eachother in the future to drive home how little this bonus means. On the other hand, I kind of like that so many people are nerfing themselves by playing Khurites so I might not. Either way, I don't think either of us will be changing eachother's opinions tonight.

 

[Archiel]

People should stop crying because a build where in the end game you could no charge swing with cronite sword, wear light cronite pieces, nuke as a mage and be a viable killer on water. That build was. Pure. Bullshit.

I don't see what using the best gear has to do with base race balance when the race/class you complain about doesn't use cron armor.
I don't know what you mean when you say no charge swing hits for 30, my veela is lucky to get even close to that with a full charge swing.
Viable or not in water is an issue SV is yet to deal with, though if you are full health and a hybrid chases you into water they probabky don't even have the mana to kill you

 

[MolagAmur]

People should stop crying because a build where in the end game you could no charge swing with cronite sword, wear light cronite pieces, nuke as a mage and be a viable killer on water. That build was. Pure. Bullshit.

Humans will still be doing this. But you're over exaggerating like hell. Its actually insane.

Your magic is only as good as how much you're willing to invest in it. Want stronger spells? Sacrifice more melee.
The choice is yours. Can't be great at both but you can be subpar at both.

Wow thanks for the rundown. Hybrids have been like this for a decade. You sacrifice strength and primaries to get int and spells. You sacrifice armor protection to get mana regen. You do less damage than a warrior. You have much less mana than a mage. You're literally 50/50. Which is what a hybrid should be.

Hybrids have always been the hardest class because you have to be good at everything. Good players could utilize their tools to survive and put out damage in a group fight. They never took the place of pure warriors or pure mages.

There did need to be a difference between hybrid and full mage heals/damage. But what we got was garbage.

Thats the last thing im going to say about it. The only hybrid that is nerfed are Veelas so you're still going to complain when a human dunks you. Sorry I guess. Sometimes skill wins in this game. Hybrids sacrifice a lot to use that very limited use of magic.

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah the water argument is a laugh. This game is intended to have naval combat and an underwater continent. You think they're going to keep it so you can't use melee and ranged combat in the water longterm?

 

[Archiel]

1.7% speed doesn't give you more versatility. It's an illusionary speed advantage for people who can't math. If you're beating people on slower builds it's not because your faster, it's because you're better.

5% more health, 7% more damage. A tad more max-armor weight. These are not advantages a better player cannot overcome. But if two equally skilled opponents fight on a Khurite and Kallard, the advantage goes to the Kallard.

Don't believe me? Starting right infront of them, turn and run from a Kallard in a straight line and see how many hits they get in before you are outside their melee range (Spoiler, if they're an accurate striker you'll probably be dead)

Then tell me that speed difference allows you to do anything with dancing around outside their strike range you couldn't do on a Kallard as well. People see this big difference in Dex and assume it does more than it really does. That's why Khurites are meta.

It's at least a little refreshing that someone is actually testing these thing before giving a feelings based opinion.

Nice work

 

[shill]

I am in the camp that agrees that every point should contribute to your progress. I am a new player and have yet to see how hybrids play out. That being said would a curved progression be more desirable? (sketch below) It would boost the middle part of the leveling progress while still maintaining progress towards the ceiling. There is also something realistic about improving a lot when you learn something, but mastery is till a long way to go.

It would however buff up all the INT builds, including those with 110 INT, so the overall damage bonus limit could be lowered to adjust the buff and make it not so noticable.

Am I getting all of your sentiments about this right?

View attachment 1790

My personal feeling: if it should not be linear it should be "bended" other way around (mirrored via current scaling dotted line).
Why? :

1. increased inteligence still have bigger impact than linear
2. real low values for INT makes you a mage that can basically pull rabbit from hat not really heal anyone or deal magic damage
2. real high values for INT have deserved "bonuses"

 

[Morwen]

I get what you are saying. But the difference in playstyle is you assuming you're meaningfully faster and playing differently because of it. If I somehow nerfed your speed by 1.7% but your numbers didn't show that, I highly doubt you would even notice.

You like the idea of having more speed, but you don't really seem to be grasping how insignificant a 1.7% difference really is.

I might make some videos of different builds running out of stickyback range of eachother in the future to drive home how little this bonus means. On the other hand, I kind of like that so many people are nerfing themselves by playing Khurites so I might not. Either way, I don't think either of us will be changing eachother's opinions tonight.

I duel during hours some days and I can really see the differente between dueling a thursar or a khurite khurite, I destroy armors and weapons just by dueling and I dont need maths for that, is noticable if you play the game mate, I actually play the game not sure about you.

Humans will still be doing this. But you're over exaggerating like hell. Its actually insane.

Wow thanks for the rundown. Hybrids have been like this for a decade. You sacrifice strength and primaries to get int and spells. You sacrifice armor protection to get mana regen. You do less damage than a warrior. You have much less mana than a mage. You're literally 50/50. Which is what a hybrid should be.

Hybrids have always been the hardest class because you have to be good at everything. Good players could utilize their tools to survive and put out damage in a group fight. They never took the place of pure warriors or pure mages.

There did need to be a difference between hybrid and full mage heals/damage. But what we got was garbage.

Thats the last thing im going to say about it. The only hybrid that is nerfed are Veelas so you're still going to complain when a human dunks you. Sorry I guess. Sometimes skill wins in this game. Hybrids sacrifice a lot to use that very limited use of magic.

The "good players play hybrids" is a bit bullshit mate, good players are good at any class and hybrids will be more nerfed when all magic schools are in game, what are you going to do about that then?

 

[Silenko]

Hybrid is an Hybrid, not a mage, you can´t expect to play an Hybrid and be as successful and have the numbers of a mage with magic, which was happening before the int curve fix (Becoming a real curve, not exactly a fix)

A lot of people saying that "Hybrids have been like this for 10 years" , Im sorry, this is not MO1, I think it should be clear by now.

About point investment, they say you "lack" the points now to make an hybrid successful and thats wrong: You can lower your int, focus on utility spells (Corrupt, purify, fulmi to make them purify themselves, mind blast, which is a very underated spell and magic reflect)

Doing that would increase your PSY and keep your mana the same while giving you extra skill points to scratch from magic offense and some other skills.

Hybrids are viable, hybrids that perform as good as a more specialized character I doubt so (And it would be unfair to perform the same with less investment in skills and stats)

 

[strycio]

I dont get the rant about hybrids, while actually footmage/dexmage are the ones being screwed with the new scaling. A well rounded tindremere hybrid will effectively hit as strong as a dexmage und just run a little slower while being able to wield weapons efficiently and wearing better armor. Sure the dexmage probably will have more mana and a little more magic defense but will this be enough of an argument to chose dex over hybrid?