Attribute Rework

[Neftan]

There are a couple of threads, one in particular that is very informative and saturated with data by @Godkin Veratas , discussing racial balancing, and ways to make different attributes more meaningful to avoid easy META builds and create a more diverse competitive scene.

Here is my suggestion to tackle the beast. I have included a poll to help garner general feedback.



As is, only STR is important to martial combat builds, governing physical damage, weapon use (str req).

For mages, INT and PSY are important, with PSY supplying mana and INT governing mana and damage.

DEX and CON are important for both builds, more so for martial, as they cover the majority of stamina, speed and HP.

ALL ATTRIBUTES need to affect ALL ASPECTS of combat.

Below I will make my own stab at it, but it is just a suggestion and not something I would want thrown right into the game. These are surface level suggestions that do not cover every base.

STR influences:

• Weapon Use
  • Weight for melee, Pull for bows
• Physical Damage
• Knockback Resistance
  • Less jerks to vision, less effected by pushes
• Sprint, Speed
  • Higher multiplier on sprint speed
• Stam Drain on Sprint
  • increased stamina usage on sprint, stronger you are the more energy you consume for better results
• Casting Interruption
  • Higher str means less chance of interruption
• Carry Weight
• Jump Height
• Health

DEX influences

• Cooldown between swings
  • right now people hit the ground to reset this cooldown window where you can't parry or attack again
  • more dex = less of a window
• General Movement Speed
• Swim Speed
• Stam Drain on Sprint, Jumping
  • more dex means more agile, less stam consumption
• Weakspot Chance on middle attacks and with bows
• Cast Time
  • More dex = less cast time
• Stamina
• Stamina Regeneration

INT influences

• Magic Damage
• Bandage Speed and Effectiveness
• Weak spot chance on middle and with bows
• Increased damage to opponents durability when getting Equipment Hits
• Mana
  • (1.5x int = mana, psy offers less)
• Swim Speed

PSY influences

• Damage Bonus
  • Make damage bonus affect both spells and melee attacks
• Magic Resistance
  • Make this visible like damage bonus is
• Debuff Resistance
  • Corrupt/Poison etc are shorter
• Mana
  • (.5x)
• Mana Regeneration
• Stamina Regeneration

CON influences

• Armor Weight Capacity
• Able to hold back weapon longer before the damage begins to fall
  • Allowing slower / con centered builds to try and trade hits more effectively
• Less stam drain on drawn bow
  • Not on initial draw, that is STR. But on keeping it held back.
• How long you are able to keep spells stored/charged before needing to cast
• Appetite
  • More con = gets hungry faster
  • More con = more thirst (more pots)
• Stamina
• Health
• Health Regeneration
  • We all currently have passive regen, this would become the direct modifier

What do you think? Does this sound somewhat logical? Do you agree? Do you not agree with my suggestions, but DO think attributes need to be reworked?

 

[Skydancer]

I think some of these ideas are pretty good and makes me think of things I hadn't considered before. Too many points to provide feedback on but in short; SV have had more than enough time to decide how their attributes work, what they should govern etc. Even at the inception of MO1, they should have had a short and long term view of the role they play and if they rely on any of this player feedback after 10+ years, that's a huge red flag (This is the primary driver of these forum threads).

I've said a lot on the matter of attributes and theres some good suggestions in the mix. I think what's causing the discussion is that when you design something you have a few different milestones:

• The Perfect Storm - where you have the time, competence and resources to create your perfect system
• Realistic Endgame - where you get to make the improvements and functionality that you think strikes the best balance between cost and time
• The MVP - The bare minimum for a functional system that takes the very least effort for an acceptable but far from ideal output

What we saw in MO1 and are seeing again in MO2 is the MVP - where it appears that when given a second run, SV have not appeared on the surface to have many any significant changes or extensions to any of the attributes despite having 10 years to conceive of better more in-depth systems.

Aside from a change to the speed curve I haven't seen any other change so far, nor any stated intentions of what the realistic endgame for their attribute system might be. This leads to concern among invested players that perhaps SV don't have a realistic endgame at all and that what we are seeing now is the limit of their imagination and/or ability.

I've seen games get their sequels and in many, the develops clearly had banked ideas on how to improve core mechanics and stats and jumped at the chance to do so having a clean slate (sequel). Divinity Original Sin and Vermintide are two examples for now but there are many.

Honestly having attributes at all in this game the devs must have brainstormed for hours/days about why to choose the ones they did, and what impacts to the game and play experience they should have and could have in the future. By using their second chance to give us the same systems and in some cases lesser systems similar to TES series, concern is warranted.

It's not even only a matter of balance - it's a matter of variety and possibility - the more useful every attribute is for everyone, the more compromises, choices and options everyone has to customise their characters and build choices will suddenly become really exciting and challenging.

 

[Evelyn]

Voted no because I do not support the idea of stacking STR so melee can sprint even faster. It's already valuable enough of a stat as-is, and most of these proposed ideas look on paper to be very oriented towards making melee even stronger.

It's a bit senseless to start wanting to change the way it works before magic and mounted is even released...

In the game's present state, the only issue I have with stats is the way DEX affects speed which has already been discussed elsewhere.

 

[Bernfred]

a complete overhaul is not needed and will never happen. the clade gifts are the new tool to balance the races.

 

[Neftan]

Voted no because I do not support the idea of stacking STR so melee can sprint even faster. It's already valuable enough of a stat as-is, and most of these proposed ideas look on paper to be very oriented towards making melee even stronger.

It's a bit senseless to start wanting to change the way it works before magic and mounted is even released...

In the game's present state, the only issue I have with stats is the way DEX affects speed which has already been discussed elsewhere.

You have a good point about magic and mount not being in yet, but you missed some very clear details.

1) There is a clear option for agreeing on changes without agreeing on what I literally suggested.
2) What I suggested, I outlined as rough and not literal. It was me spitballing on the spot.
3) On top of the above, I also added in that high STR would attack stamina consumption. It would be similar to how Molvas worked in MO1. High burst speed for short fights, but they would stam quickly to compensate.
4) My rough ideas also involve other aspects of combat, making people who stack STR lacking in many other areas.

a complete overhaul is not needed and will never happen. the clade gifts are the new tool to balance the races.

Yes, you are very likely entirely correct. Something like this, in any real capacity, is unlikely. However that won't keep me from throwing the idea out there.

I like the idea of Clade gifts, however there is still a big imbalance around melee combat and overall attributes distribution. How can this be fixed? Dex and speed being more normalized has changed a lot.

 

[Bernfred]

You have a good point about magic and mount not being in yet, but you missed some very clear details.

1) There is a clear option for agreeing on changes without agreeing on what I literally suggested.
2) What I suggested, I outlined as rough and not literal. It was me spitballing on the spot.
3) On top of the above, I also added in that high STR would attack stamina consumption. It would be similar to how Molvas worked in MO1. High burst speed for short fights, but they would stam quickly to compensate.
4) My rough ideas also involve other aspects of combat, making people who stack STR lacking in many other areas.



Yes, you are very likely entirely correct. Something like this, in any real capacity, is unlikely. However that won't keep me from throwing the idea out there.

I like the idea of Clade gifts, however there is still a big imbalance around melee combat and overall attributes distribution. How can this be fixed? Dex and speed being more normalized has changed a lot.

you have hundreds of changes in your first post... how on earth can that be balanced. its not like the system rn doesnt work and is not tested for 10 years. it can be improved and therefore concentrate on 1-2 changes in your suggestions when you think about such a sensible system.

 

[Anabolic Man]

"Cooldown between swings

• right now people hit the ground to reset this cooldown window where you can't parry or attack again"

I don´t think this would be a good idea. I like the faster Combat and the swings should be the same for every class. Just the mechanic between the faster windupswings should be improved. Higher Dex is something for Dex fighters with Skills such as Marksmanship. That´s why the faster windups should only work for 2 handed Weapons. 1 handed weapons can carry a shield and a shield is always strong. I hope the Lionshield won´t be a huge Towershield as in MO1

Feedback about Weapons, Combat, the new (Attack Modifiers Charge Attack) option and the faster windup-speed, after hitting the ground, or an opponent

We can now bind Thrust attack and Overhead attack on different Keys, and enable the Option (Attack Modifiers charges Attacks). You will now perform an Overhead or Thrust Attack if you hold down the Key you choose. In my case E and Q The problem is the following. It force you to look down and...

mortalonline2.com

 

[Anabolic Man]

I think we rather need some feedback about Clade Gifts, so that those Gifts can make specific Builds work, by giving the races more Points in Skills,
which conventional metabuilds do not use, to not cause imbalances.

My Ideas to Buff the Human Race + Human race specific Build. New Players will create a human as the first character, and shouldn't regret it.

I opened a Thread that discussed the Question, if it would be a good Idea if SV would give us 50-100 more Skillpoints. I totally Changed my opinion on that, after discussing with the other Players about the Balance Problems this would cause. I had a specific Build in Mind (The Survivalist), i...

mortalonline2.com

 

[Anabolic Man]

Voted no because I do not support the idea of stacking STR so melee can sprint even faster. It's already valuable enough of a stat as-is, and most of these proposed ideas look on paper to be very oriented towards making melee even stronger.

It's a bit senseless to start wanting to change the way it works before magic and mounted is even released...

In the game's present state, the only issue I have with stats is the way DEX affects speed which has already been discussed elsewhere.

But then the Hybrid and high dex Characters would be super strong. The Hybrid got buffed, if it is true, that you just have to put your weapon on your back to cast a spell. Which would be great. I never liked the mechanic, that you had to put your weapon back in your inventory.

I like if more players can deal some damage with the bow. Moutned Combat was always a bit too strong.

Shields have no Equipment weight and a mage can now use a shield. You have to keep that in mind.

If Str give some Speed, it can be possible to make a more versetile Character such as a Hybrid between MountedCombat/Footfighter.

Atm i think it feels like the Dwarf and the Thursar Kurite is well balanced.

I think the Armor should make a difference how fast you move.

Perhaps the speed should increase steadily and consistently with weight.

 

[Eldrath]

Considering that the system was incomplete at the start of MO1 and all changes done to it bandaids to push more clades into the "viable" section its disappointing that they have taken it over without an overhaul. From the few comments made about this I think they don't understand their systems anymore and just copy paste because detanglimg them and improving on them is too hard.

In the short the current system will have the exact same problems as the last except with the added grind of killing 800 Risars. Imagine telling someone to reroll after that.

I do like some of your ideas and hope that SV realizes the chance they missed here.

 

[Dracu]

How about make all races same stats but allow more customisation and then we just decide how we like to build them?
We could still have cladegifts for "specialisation"

 

[Rhias]

I don't think there should be changes that make the standard fighter builds (max dex, max con, max str) stronger compared to other builds e. g. making fighters faster than mages by a speed buff by str.
That would totally break the balance.
Instead there should be changes that encourage a fighter to pick e. g. int or psy. But then hybrids will be most likely OP.
Difficult topic...

 

[Kaemik]

Yes but diminishing returns are a must. I don't think 1 point of psyche should be as valuable as one point of strength for most melee builds for instance but I do think that the cost of an attribute should go up proportional to how high you already have it in such a way that eventually balancing strength against psyche becomes a meaningful choice.

 

[Kaemik]

To give a very spitball version of the system I'd like to see.

Under 50: 1 attribute point = 1 point in that attribute
60-70: 2 attribute points = 1 point in that attribute
70-80: 3 attribute points = 1 point in that attribute
80-90: 4 attribute points = 1 point in that attribute
90-100: 5 attribute points = 1 point in that attribute
100+: 10 attribute points = 1 point in that attribute

^ Above numbers are SUPER spitballed and the number of attribute points would obviously need to be changed so that you could still potentially max an attribute if you wanted. Then you accompany it with something like this.

Strength. Major effect on armor weight before speed and stam/mana drop off. Governs damage of physical attacks like melee and archery.
Dexterity. Affects movespeed. Increases attack rate of all instant attacks and decreases cast timer of non-instant spells. Increase crit rate with all forms of damage.
Constitution. HP pool/steam pool. Increases physical damage resist. Minor effect on armor weight before speed and stam/mana drop off.
Intelligence. Mana pool. Governs damage of spells. Increase crit strength with all forms of damage.
Phyche. Increases magic resist. Increase passive mana/stam regen and buff all effects that regenerate HP/Stam/MP. Increase damage from tamed and dominated pets.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Voted no because I do not support the idea of stacking STR so melee can sprint even faster. It's already valuable enough of a stat as-is, and most of these proposed ideas look on paper to be very oriented towards making melee even stronger.

It's a bit senseless to start wanting to change the way it works before magic and mounted is even released...

In the game's present state, the only issue I have with stats is the way DEX affects speed which has already been discussed elsewhere.

So you would rather they balance the current implemented game and features around yet to be implemented features instead of balancing the current "game" and then rather balance new features on the already balanced game ?

If so thats the biggest mistake SV did with MO. A reason the game never got rid of its nickname "Placeholder Online".

 

[KermyWormy]

I'm not certain they need to completely overhaul and replace what they've had with something entirely different. Dump stats in general are an ok thing imo, but you should be giving up something in doing so.

There's never been a reason for a pure fighter to not dump int and psy, and that's what they should look to adjust.

And let's be honest, a new "revolutionary" rework changing which stats do what under certain circumstances might be beyond SVs current capabilities unfortunately, so a retuning is probably more realistic anyways.

Using int/psy for bandages has been mentioned, I think that's good for a starting point.

What about making a certain amount of psyche needed to not only diminish magic damage (high psyche) but also falling under a certain threshold (low psyche) you take added spell damage or something. It doesn't have to be an extreme percentage which would throw off balance, but enough that a pure fighter would absolutely consider either lowering one of their primary stats such as strength to get some psyche, or roll a clade mix which has enough attribute points to have psyche in their build where the benefit of having it balances against being 1 or 2 tiers slower in combat move speed or whatever.

Whatever changes they make should imo operate in a kind of grey area where in some cases it's better to dump stats, but enough reasons and benefits not to as well.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

Interesting post with novel ideas. Definitely agree with the spirit of important tradeoffs being made as a way to make all races viable.

Considering that the system was incomplete at the start of MO1 and all changes done to it bandaids to push more clades into the "viable" section its disappointing that they have taken it over without an overhaul. From the few comments made about this I think they don't understand their systems anymore and just copy paste because detanglimg them and improving on them is too hard.

In the short the current system will have the exact same problems as the last except with the added grind of killing 800 Risars. Imagine telling someone to reroll after that.

I do like some of your ideas and hope that SV realizes the chance they missed here.

This is a great point. I'd love to see what the original build looked like before all the balance changes pushed through by players and the speed is king nonsense. In a game with mounts, pets, magic, speed being the one characteristic normalized seems very strange. I'd rather see what Mats and Henrik initially envisioned and go from there.

I'm not certain they need to completely overhaul and replace what they've had with something entirely different. Dump stats in general are an ok thing imo, but you should be giving up something in doing so.

There's never been a reason for a pure fighter to not dump int and psy, and that's what they should look to adjust.

And let's be honest, a new "revolutionary" rework changing which stats do what under certain circumstances might be beyond SVs current capabilities unfortunately, so a retuning is probably more realistic anyways.

Using int/psy for bandages has been mentioned, I think that's good for a starting point.

What about making a certain amount of psyche needed to not only diminish magic damage (high psyche) but also falling under a certain threshold (low psyche) you take added spell damage or something. It doesn't have to be an extreme percentage which would throw off balance, but enough that a pure fighter would absolutely consider either lowering one of their primary stats such as strength to get some psyche, or roll a clade mix which has enough attribute points to have psyche in their build where the benefit of having it balances against being 1 or 2 tiers slower in combat move speed or whatever.

Whatever changes they make should imo operate in a kind of grey area where in some cases it's better to dump stats, but enough reasons and benefits not to as well.

I'm holding back on suggestions largely because of this. Magic and mounts will change the game in ways that were not a part of MO1 and unpredictable. One big example, Mounts may be VERY restrictive based on weight, which could bring about the proper Khurite Horseman, as Kallards may find themselves too heavy. A full magic system with great offensive options at launch could have people crying for more Psyche and willing to ditch points in strength or dex. Of course, Psyche needs to actually work and mitigate well.

Kallards recieving +12 Dexterity and +4 Constitution giving them the best HP, Con, Stamina, Damage Bonus, Strength, and Height with the attributes to max them (Khurites can't), is a flaw that developed with balance changes to the game, and should be reworked regardless of whatever else comes.

 

[Evelyn]

So you would rather they balance the current implemented game and features around yet to be implemented features instead of balancing the current "game" and then rather balance new features on the already balanced game ?

If so thats the biggest mistake SV did with MO. A reason the game never got rid of its nickname "Placeholder Online".

What? No I am saying that you don't throw out the entire system when two of the core combat mechanics aren't in the game yet. Sane people have been saying not to change melee too much more until after we see mages and mounted players in the game. Sane people have also been saying not to whine about magic until we see what the INT scaling and PSY benefits will be like.

You don't just change an entire system at once and hope nothing bad happens. That's completely irrational. You make small changes, record results, and then make more if necessary. The less valuable stats should be slightly tweaked to made more competitive to the strongest stats. Suggestions like "make INT affect bandaging speed and or amount" or "make siege weapon use be INT-based" are great ideas that make sense. Looking at the test results of PSY in MO1, it obviously needs to be more consistent (and magic should also be damaging enough that not taking any PSY should be a risk akin to having low CON, that is to say having 10 PSY should be a calculated risk of hoping a mage doesn't notice you always take full damage and will die fast.). DEX should have value in combat efficiency for all 3 combat types besides "well you can run away". There's a lot of manual dexterity involved in light weapons, archery, and spellcasting gestures.

Make sense? I am not saying "there should never be changes". The existing system should be improved, but this thread is not the way.

 

[Rorry]

I think SV intends that having both combat and crafting on the same character will give value to all the attributes.

 

[Kaemik]

I think SV intends that having both combat and crafting on the same character will give value to all the attributes.

Nope. My main will be balanced entirely around combat. I will not be wasting points in taming or thievery unless they are made combat relevant or moved to professions where they belong. I will not be putting points in Phyche unless it helps my combat build. If the game is good enough to justify it, I will have a 2nd or 3rd account entirely dedicated to crafting. But even if I play single account my combat main will never make sacrifices to be a better crafter. Not a single one. I enjoy crafting, but not enough to accept nerfs to my combat build. And MOST players who aren't hyper-casual carebears will be doing the same.

Any other school of thought represents a profound misjudgment of the character of not only hardcore PvP titles, but all competitive gamers ever.