Its not the amount of points that is the issue. It is the fact you can do about 75% of the damage of a person with max skills in archery and mounted archery, if you have 110+ strength and ZERO skill in Archery, or Mounted Archery.
Archery Balance
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Its not the amount of points that is the issue. It is the fact you can do about 75% of the damage of a person with max skills in archery and mounted archery, if you have 110+ strength and ZERO skill in Archery, or Mounted Archery.
No it wont. If people dont put skills in something and still do nearly the same damage as someone who has 500 points dumped into it how will it fix anything? That is a zero sum equation. Its like saying we are having a poverty problem... lets print more money without increasing the capital that money is based on, and expecting the poverty rates to go down.... And then you are shocked when the prices go up and so does the poverty rates.
What I mean is that they would change it so lower amounts of skills do much lower damage or make it worse in some other way, and thus in order to get back to the current level it is, you would need to invest more points. This would be the purpose of the higher skill requirement.
That's not true... running a bow from horseback with 100 Archery and 0 Mounted Archery cuts your damage in half. I don't know the figures on 0 Archery vs. 100 Archery of the top of my head but there is no way a character with no points invested in anything should be able to do 75% of the damage of someone with 100 Archery / 100 MA.
I'd also throw out, that while it's harder to quantify Aiming Technique is the third worthwhile archery skill, and absolutely makes a difference if you run longbow or Assym. Probably no need for it if you are mainly a shortbow MA but shorbow MAs have a massively limited range they can hit their target from.
But Archery/Aiming Technique = max useful skills as a foot archer and adding MA to that is max useful skills for an MA. No other role allows you such a shallow dip to reach maximum effectiveness (Because Marksman is such a terrible skill you really can say you're max effectiveness without it and controlled aiming doesn't even work, and assuming breathing is helps you steady a shot you've already charged, never will do anything for good archers.)
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MA is popular because its a must have for roaming PvP.
Either run or fight you have to have it in open field but....It is not actually good. Its pure situational.
MA in fact have a bad rep because of roaming PK group but is it really good? Take away surprise, numbers and initiative and MA is not that effective.
Once you lose horse you are in huge disadvantage,
In dungeon its totally useless.
In big fight as rule everyone dismount
On the top MO2 weapon switch is The Worse in all games I ever play and I play many games.
THE WORSE
IMHO
Archery needs a bit love:
- Making smooth switch between bows and melee
- Better longbow dmg against armor
- Better horses HP and Armor
Either run or fight you have to have it in open field but....It is not actually good. Its pure situational.
MA in fact have a bad rep because of roaming PK group but is it really good? Take away surprise, numbers and initiative and MA is not that effective.
Once you lose horse you are in huge disadvantage,
In dungeon its totally useless.
In big fight as rule everyone dismount
On the top MO2 weapon switch is The Worse in all games I ever play and I play many games.
THE WORSE
IMHO
Archery needs a bit love:
- Making smooth switch between bows and melee
- Better longbow dmg against armor
- Better horses HP and Armor
A short bow has a 77m range. An Asym bow has a 87m range.... I can easily hit the same things with the short bow that I can hit with the asym bow with next to none of the stamina drain. Aiming Technique is not required or even needed if you use shortbows. And Marksmanship is completely pointless in PVP because the odds of hitting head shots on any player that is even barely aware of you is nearly impossible. And like all skills if you have zero in it, it doesnt effect the top end damage it only effect the dice roll at the lower end. So if you have 100 skill you will hit 40-45 damage every time, but if you have zero skill it will go from 5-45 damage. It is the same for melee combat.
The next issue with archery is simple.
Momentum. There is ZERO momentum or inertia in the foot movement for players. They move around like meth addicted gnats. There is more inertia and momentum in the mounted movement then in the player foot movement. A horse has to build up speed and even slow down... it cant stop on a dime in game, while a player can not only stop on a dime but turn 180deg and go the opposite direction without so much as a hint of a slowdown. Hell if you did that in real life you would blow out your knees and possibly your hips with the weight some of these characters are pushing around.
Momentum. There is ZERO momentum or inertia in the foot movement for players. They move around like meth addicted gnats. There is more inertia and momentum in the mounted movement then in the player foot movement. A horse has to build up speed and even slow down... it cant stop on a dime in game, while a player can not only stop on a dime but turn 180deg and go the opposite direction without so much as a hint of a slowdown. Hell if you did that in real life you would blow out your knees and possibly your hips with the weight some of these characters are pushing around.
Yup, this!
All you need to be an effective MA is 200 primaries (archery and mounted archery) and 63str as alvarin with arm clades to use max range dense crepite shortbow. Aiming technique on alvarin is meaningless as their stam regen is insane so aiming technique is pointless. And marksmanship is trash for pvp as you said.
Wobble should be introduced requiring Marksmanship to bot only increase weakspot, but to also reduce wobble to 0 at 100.
Thia will make it so every single footie in the game isnt also a very effective MA.
A very needed balance change.
O. My main Oghmir i can stand with any meta build toe to toe, and also use the best bow in the game... 122str its so OP it is ridiculous.
Highest dps at range AND melee
Player movement is 100% effected by momentum. If a player 180s, he loses all forward momentum and is slowed dramatically.
Y
You need controlled riding as well, so 300 primaries. Also, Oghs are not the highest melee DPS. Humans and Thursars have higher damage bonuses than Ogh.
Nah. There's is about a 1/5 second where you slow when doing a 180, but the acceleration is near instant.
You're turning around 180 degrees, the fact that you lose all forward momentum is exactly the problem he is referencing.
You can't easily hit people as they decelerate / accelerate when moving, which is what they are talking about. Any kind of random movement makes you effectively immune to ranged attacks, even at pretty close range.
"a player can not only stop on a dime but turn 180deg and go the opposite direction without so much as a hint of a slowdown." This is just factually wrong. A player cannot 180 with no slow down. Also, acceleration is not "near instant", it is quite pronounced. If you are standing still and someone runs up on you, even if you are faster, you are not getting away due to the time it takes to accelerate.
300 is nothing though because they still have enough to max out being melee.
Also, with the damage clades+20-20%melee bonus the thursars 30% is negligible in comparison considering the tanking abilities of an oghmir.
A better way of saying it.. oghmir can be Meta footies and full MA... best on the ground and highest ranged dmg... wheres the balance? I play one and i can admit this fact. It would be much more balanced wobble/marksmanship-to-reduce was a thing.
Thanks for that "factual" knowledge, bro.
Now answer this question: Is there enough deceleration when a player is changing directions (on foot) that an archer can take advantage of it and punish a player when he is strafing / randomly running around?
Not going to disagree that Marksmanship is useless and I expect Controlled Breathing to be as well since holding your shots is exclusively for bad archers. I have noticed shortbow range to be severely limited when chasing a mounted opponent on horseback. It may have to do with movement physics but the difference between shortbow and assym is very noticeable in that particular scenario.
And the main thing is you said untrained MAs do 75% of the damage of ones with Archery and Mounted Archery. The main point I was making is at least when MA was first introduced in beta you did 50% damage on horseback based on the lack of that skill alone. I'm unware of that having ever been changed.
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By strafing/ randomly running around do you mean trying to not get hit? Do I think it should be easy to hit someone actively trying to not get hit? No.
yeah game has no acceloration or deacceloration so with the slow projectile speed you cant predict where the player will be if they are actively attempting to not get hit.
It caps the skill ceiling and is one aspect that makes foot archer unviable.
If they want to make archery a viable gameplay style and content they need to up the arrow velocity so players with higher skill have a possibility to hit moving targets.
In a FPS sense the players move way to fast but you cant slow them down because of how much other game systems and balancing that would affect.
For a easier representation of this you can see how hard it is to aim, and track a spirt when you are trying to zap their kau away. Same situation but its much more watered down for living gameplay.
Other issues they need to adress in time to make archery a viable source of gameplay content and play style is how poorly it scales against opposing gear like steel armor. But right now archeries cost is super low so making it viable against steel is not fair from a cost perspective. Fletching and adjustments to arrows could fix the issue or being super strong against nakes/bad armor but super weak against decent gear to the point its not viable. fletch your own steel arrows to be ok against steel but a ogh arrow would not be too much better then a steel one against steel. but ogh v ogh it would be comparable to steel v steel.
If you fix these two things and maybe adjust stamina then foot archery could be viable option.
If along with these two things you also adjust several mount issues and apply some counters to MAs then MA would be viable in actual fights but nerfed against killing a horse and running away.
Talking about adding more health to mounts, possibly buffing mount armor, and applying a speed penalty to mounts based on how much health they lost.
It caps the skill ceiling and is one aspect that makes foot archer unviable.
If they want to make archery a viable gameplay style and content they need to up the arrow velocity so players with higher skill have a possibility to hit moving targets.
In a FPS sense the players move way to fast but you cant slow them down because of how much other game systems and balancing that would affect.
For a easier representation of this you can see how hard it is to aim, and track a spirt when you are trying to zap their kau away. Same situation but its much more watered down for living gameplay.
Other issues they need to adress in time to make archery a viable source of gameplay content and play style is how poorly it scales against opposing gear like steel armor. But right now archeries cost is super low so making it viable against steel is not fair from a cost perspective. Fletching and adjustments to arrows could fix the issue or being super strong against nakes/bad armor but super weak against decent gear to the point its not viable. fletch your own steel arrows to be ok against steel but a ogh arrow would not be too much better then a steel one against steel. but ogh v ogh it would be comparable to steel v steel.
If you fix these two things and maybe adjust stamina then foot archery could be viable option.
If along with these two things you also adjust several mount issues and apply some counters to MAs then MA would be viable in actual fights but nerfed against killing a horse and running away.
Talking about adding more health to mounts, possibly buffing mount armor, and applying a speed penalty to mounts based on how much health they lost.
Really? I challenge you to do the crap these toons pull off in game? I can be damned sure you cant run full speed turn 90 deg and then reach max speed in two steps.