I am struggling to understand the murderer system. Playing a blue mage means pks get to run right up to you and then flag in melee and you have no counterplay other than to preemptive strike a blue just in case and take murders yourself. As a vet UO and Darkfall player it makes no sense to me. Playing a red is supposed to be harder to deter the majority from the playstyle leading to a healthier game population overall as well as mechancs such as the being forced to murder or get initiated on as a mage in melee range. If players went red after 5 murders you could see a red coming and attack immediately. The system really seems to favour and incentive blue murderers. I get that ressing at red priests is a pain but I played a red in UO and in the old days you had to run into bucs den and try to bank while most likely getting gangbanged or live out of your house. In Darkfall we had to live in Chaos Towns until we got a hamlet and it was difficult. I was one of the better mahirims in old Darkfall - Sweet Tooth Brutal. I usually play red in these types of games im in my newbie stage with a small group of rl friends and not playing as a murderer at least yet but I am struggling to find out the benefit. Games like this do need a healthy population and this system turns it into more of a battle royale which is going to turn a lot of players away. I definately don't want a optional pvp system or trammel or anything like that but this feels like a very bad take IMO.
Why no red system like UO/Darkfall?
- Thread starter Vincent
- Start date
I'd settle for being able to read their tag before they move in and you have a child together.
We need to go back to MO1 flagging. Red or blue. Reds are red and dont use town, with red names. No parcel running or garbage. And blues dont lose their ability to go into towns from aggroing the guards a few times. This has more town griefing but the current system just has so many issues. Like getting your standing up so you can go into town but you still cant res there because you have over 5 mc. But dont have a red name and can go in town, and people go grey if they hit you. It just makes no sense.
It really feels as tho they're still trying to figure it out. Learning from the mistakes of MO1 and being more friendly to new players. And by mistakes i mean mistakes as a company. Aka mistakes that = a $£€₿¥ amount. Aka not nurturing new players.
Honestly i'm hopeful that what we see today isn't the final iteration. They have some great base systems in place. But they need to find that magic balance to create the unknown dangers of an MO1 wilderness and the camaraderie and militias and rumors and player-made laws and drama that comes along with it.
Imo it's an immense and nuanced problem that is really the keystone of sandboxes. That balance of giving the players control to then design mechanics to mitigate the pitfalls of it.
@Vincent
SV seems to have replaced the traditional global red flag for murderers with a warning symbol next to their nameplates.
They recently added the new bounty hunting system which makes bounty targets flag red to the hunter when the contract is handed out. A player simply needs to accumulate 5+ mc to become eligible as a bounty target.
So, if I'm not mistaken, the player who does not flag red to you but have a warning symbol on their nameplate means they are a murderer but not your bounty target. If they flag red to you it means they are the bounty target and you are the hunter.
SV seems to have replaced the traditional global red flag for murderers with a warning symbol next to their nameplates.
They recently added the new bounty hunting system which makes bounty targets flag red to the hunter when the contract is handed out. A player simply needs to accumulate 5+ mc to become eligible as a bounty target.
So, if I'm not mistaken, the player who does not flag red to you but have a warning symbol on their nameplate means they are a murderer but not your bounty target. If they flag red to you it means they are the bounty target and you are the hunter.
As Hendrick admitted he has been playing RPK from Ultima and naturally catering to RPKs
Indeed MO2 system heavily favor RPKs and in fact push players to this style of game or out of the game.
I'm not against RPK style. Not at all.
I dont ask to give "honor" guilds any advantage.
I'm for simple, easy to archive balance because atm RPKs have 100% of initiative.
RPKs have natural advantage of aggressive play style and this OK but also able to attack "out of the blue" because short 3min grey status and really bad id system.
Indeed MO2 system heavily favor RPKs and in fact push players to this style of game or out of the game.
I'm not against RPK style. Not at all.
I dont ask to give "honor" guilds any advantage.
I'm for simple, easy to archive balance because atm RPKs have 100% of initiative.
RPKs have natural advantage of aggressive play style and this OK but also able to attack "out of the blue" because short 3min grey status and really bad id system.
So you say but what specifically anty PvP? In what way?
3 min criminal status? What a hardship!
Faction rep? Is it really bad? Its not a problem to keep rep above 0 at last with one faction but in worse case there are lawless towns.
The whole murder systems is so flawed.......
If they added the old ultimaonline murder system is would completely fix the games problems with its current toxic murder system.
If they added the old ultimaonline murder system is would completely fix the games problems with its current toxic murder system.
Especially since most players can only take a few hits attacking first is usually what decides who wins or who loses. It's very easy for me to wait around until someone isn't paying attention or is fighting a mob and then just burst them down with spells and a pet. Similarly if I am mining or something it's very easy for an MA to get two shots off on me before I can retaliate. And by that point you really have a low shot at winning. If you're lucky sometimes you kill their horse before they kill you. But the time it takes to switch to a weapon and etc too late and that's if you're 100% paying attention while mining and not afking
The first game had the old system and it proved to be flawed as well.
I actually applaud them for attempting to change/improve on the broken system.
I can't honestly say if what they have now is better or worse.
But at least they are making attempt at improving it.
100% this - the current system means that the lawful player is always at a disadvantage (since they will not attack unless provoked).
yah , you should always be able to see a murderer as red. it was a simple system and helped ALOT. However people put an unrealistic expectation of it out there. people keep saying well i cant have a group fight without turning into a murderer , they would be able to if they could see whos red and focus them.
They removed gaining rep from risars which was a better system for everyone.
They added rep lost on guard agro.
They removed all the red priest except for kran and GK basically which is a major reason the games pop is falling.
They added guard call so NPCs could fight for players in a sandbox.
They added teleporting unblockable lictors to teleport out of a town to interfere with PvP.
They made the grey timer longer which doesnt really matter to anyone but its just a bit of inconvenience.
Added blue priest to dungeons so blues and grief people and constantly respawn.
The blue priest to dungeons also basicly allow blues to rep and MC bomb people in the once lawless areas of GK and Jungle.
In the past you would conserve your rep because you would have to go back out to cave camp or GK to farm it so more noobs lived. You spent it on people with something you could gain from. You didnt have people riding from town to town spending 15 minutes each way to farm rep for PvP. Or now you have people killing on their way to towns while running packages when be for those wolves were far away from civilization for a day or two between runs.
After the removal of risar rep there was no way to gain rep for a patch or two and people either stopped playing or became full murderhobo which was rare before this patch. No because of this change people are more likely to just go full murderhobo and not live in towns because of how bad the parcel rep system is. If you are not worried about losing rep anymore now everyone is a target not just threats and loot pinatas.
Before if you died as a red it would not take you 30 minutes min to run back to town. They had red priest near each town. Some priest were is bad spots like right next to a graveyard and needed to be removed but not as what was done. This single change cause a lot of guilds to lose over half their members over time. A couple of guilds I know died out because of this patch.
The hardcore PvPers with hardcore meaning this game is your lifestyle will have multiple accounts and the hours set aside to run the distance needed for the horrible anti PvP changes. Along with being murderhobos or in guilds with robust support structures to allow them to do as they were and ignore the system.
What these changes have done is force out the casual (as in occasionally players, or doesnt put allot of time into the game. Aka lower dedication players) from being able to play the game. Alot of the more casual PvPers dont have the time to run 30-40 minutes after everytime they die or do the 15 minute parcel runs which eat up into the hour or two they have set aside to play. Basicly forcing a lot of casual players who many used to be the town militia who would fight the people who were killing the grave yard noobs.
Some of these town militia more casual sided PvP guilds became full murderhobo after SV fucked them over with the priest and rep changes to the game. Or they just quit. I know a couple of these town militia defenders who all around quit over the anti PvP changes. None of with made anything better for the noobs or stoping what they were put into the game to stop.
One of the games biggest issues now is the criminal and flagging system.
Because its a game and virtual game the code can not understand the context of the situation. There for blue players have a hard time defending them selves because they cant flag first with out punishment even know the context is very clear they are being attacked. IRL the context would be self defense. but this is a video game and code can tell that.
Having diffrent color names doesnt stop the fact that there are many blue at griefers that burn MCs and run parcels. They might sit inside of a group supporting the accounts of those with high MCs and low rep.
Like a situation I found my self in on my blue alt where mages were charging to kill me and I could not stop them with out flaging up but was still fighting their other players while this was going on.
While on my main accounts I would be red and just kill them and not worry or have to change some game option. Its much safer when you live outside of the criminal system because the crim system is broken.
Most devs would know that since crim systems cant tell context that you should not make them punish too harshly because many time people who were the victim get punished by the system as a false positive.
:addition.
In addition to how the crim system is unable to see context the main reason people dont have red names anymore is because lots of greifers run blue alts with no MC to try and give rep and MC lost. Also many people need to fight and defend themselves so they will naturally go red.
So many people would be targeted and punished for being red named when they were victims. You just strengthen griefing by having red names.
Because its a game and virtual game the code can not understand the context of the situation. There for blue players have a hard time defending them selves because they cant flag first with out punishment even know the context is very clear they are being attacked. IRL the context would be self defense. but this is a video game and code can tell that.
Having diffrent color names doesnt stop the fact that there are many blue at griefers that burn MCs and run parcels. They might sit inside of a group supporting the accounts of those with high MCs and low rep.
Like a situation I found my self in on my blue alt where mages were charging to kill me and I could not stop them with out flaging up but was still fighting their other players while this was going on.
While on my main accounts I would be red and just kill them and not worry or have to change some game option. Its much safer when you live outside of the criminal system because the crim system is broken.
Most devs would know that since crim systems cant tell context that you should not make them punish too harshly because many time people who were the victim get punished by the system as a false positive.
:addition.
In addition to how the crim system is unable to see context the main reason people dont have red names anymore is because lots of greifers run blue alts with no MC to try and give rep and MC lost. Also many people need to fight and defend themselves so they will naturally go red.
So many people would be targeted and punished for being red named when they were victims. You just strengthen griefing by having red names.
Exactly. So guild support let you to go on with indiscriminate killing so what is your problem?
You can't pk near town? I think guards near GY is a bit too much but is it really big deal? So you can't PK new players who farm GY and my heart bleeds for you. There are plenty farming places far from towns and guards also thanks to you and lame flag system much less people play this game.
You are crying about PKs leaving game but major problem for full loot open PvP games are not wolf but cows.
Again. I'm not against RPKs but your game style has own rewards and perma red flag should not be big deal.
A whole bunch of "You's" have apeared in your statement despite me living at least two hours away by horse from the nearest graveyard.
Calling PvPers anything but PvPers shows the bias you have and bad faith of your argument.
I made a very detailed post answering your argument and here you are ignoring major point I brought up about the fact that non"RPK"s get MCs despite being the victim because coded crminal systems in games cant determine context.
The reason red names were removed in the first place is because people who non crminal players were victims of blue alt griefing. When they went red named they were just killed out of the game by all the still blue name that swarm someone killable like seagulls.
Not sure what you're talking about. If you are in the wilds and notice a player approaching, you should be on guard. Stop mining, precast etc. Their intention usually becomes rather clear rather fast. If you don't notice them then it doesn't really matter if they have red name or not. There is no significant "initiative advantage". If you're on horse and notice another horseman, a first shot doesn't really determine the outcome.
Personally, I'd rather the map be less punishing to reds in terms of where they can viably live, and more favorable toward blues in terms of giving them the information they need to assess if the player they are seeing is a threat. The current systems leaves NOBODY happy.
I think a better draw distance and an EVE style ability for guilds to set the rep of enemy players and guilds would go a long way even if they don't give a way to automatically see when someone is a murderer.
Side note. The biggest ARPK guild has the motto "F*** honor, win." Chaotic-good is a valid alignment. The "honor" guilds in this game are mostly lawful-evil since the main lawful-good group (Wardens) disbanded. In this game being good seems to be the idea they won't kill you if they have no previous interactions, while lawful vs. chaotic. seems to be mostly about how likely they are to give you a 1v1 when 20 of them ride up on you.
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