Where's the "full" in this full-loot-pvp-game?

[ARandomGerman]

So why are we able to 'destroy' items out in the wild or rather everywhere we are?
Why not drop them instead (but not like droploot to drop EVERYTHING with a loading bar) and only really destroy them, for example, by throwing them into a furnace?
Could even remove the penatly timer after being hit and allow active dropping of stuff to 'get away but with a sacrifice'..
I would happily drop 5k ironwood for others (or me later) to pick up rather than uselessly destroy it just so I'm light enough to swim for example.
Dropped on purpose stuff shows up in grey bags just like npc loot (for 5 or 10 minutes or so) and you drop multiple things at once just like you now mark them for destruction with alt+right click.

Your Thoughts?

 

[Raknor]

they wanted to do this... server can't handle it

 

[Stundorn]

Dropping items on the floor like UO or LoA have are a welcomed feature, but like Raknor said, i wont stress the servers more in the current state of the game.

 

[Xunila]

Think about players creating hundreds of loot bags in a small place, e.g. in the Tindrem bank.

 

[ARandomGerman]

Think about players creating hundreds of loot bags in a small place, e.g. in the Tindrem bank.

So like /guard which had a cooldown/max introduced instead of removing it when ppl spawned to many guards with pathing and AI etc...
While lootbags are just dumb entites with itemIDs attached.

 

[Turbizzler]

Too much information for the server to store and track on top of send it to clients. Unless SV make garbage collection super aggressive where loot bags despawn in much shorter times OR make certain items in loot bags despawn quicker than others. But at that point, loot bags would be pointless since you'd never be able to get your loot back and a lot of loot would despawn during active PvP.

Rust barely managed 150 - 200 players dropping loot everywhere. A single large clan can crash a server by mass despawning loot. MO2 has 1500 players in server at a time. Imagine all the loot being dropped in places like Fabernum, Meduli and Bakti. Those nodes would be lagging constantly and would result in server crashes.

 

[ARandomGerman]

So you're telling me an MMO with a ~130 server-cluster and cloud database infrastructure can't handle what an onlineshop can at peak hours when you introduce like a timeout of 30secs/1minute for dropping stuff or so and allowing the destruction when at crafting stations? interesting

We had systems with around 3000-7500 synchronous orders per minute on black friday with way less hardware and that involves 3rd party systems for blocking stock, payment data, etc... granted not every customer gets send the information back of all the others (like it would be with lootbags popping up on screen for ppl near you) but having that asynchronous with a delay isn't witchcraft and would be totally fine because in crowded areas noone would care about 2-3 secs of delay for that (and 3 secs is like an eternity for a server) while on less stressed nodes it would be percieved as instantaniously.
Also it would only need position+model+uuid at first and only receive content of that bag when opening so like a couple bytes per lootbag once, way less than even player/guard position updates etc. in comparison.

 

[Turbizzler]

So you're telling me an MMO with a ~130 server-cluster and cloud database infrastructure can't handle what an onlineshop can at peak hours when you introduce like a timeout of 30secs/1minute for dropping stuff or so and allowing the destruction when at crafting stations? interesting

We had systems with around 3000-7500 synchronous orders per minute on black friday with way less hardware and that involves 3rd party systems for blocking stock, payment data, etc... granted not every customer gets send the information back of all the others (like it would be with lootbags popping up on screen for ppl near you) but having that asynchronous with a delay isn't witchcraft and would be totally fine because in crowded areas noone would care about 2-3 secs of delay for that (and 3 secs is like an eternity for a server) while on less stressed nodes it would be percieved as instantaniously.
Also it would only need position+model+uuid at first and only receive content of that bag when opening so like a couple bytes per lootbag once, way less than even player/guard position updates etc. in comparison.

You're comparing a worm to a basilisk.

Player positioning and movement
Mob positioning and movement
Player/Mob interaction with other players/mobs(Damage & healing)
Player skill interaction(Skill leveling, xp and clades)
Projectile positioning(Arrows, which will soon have ballistic properties with wind)
Mob spawners(both static & dynamic)
Deployable data(Houses/keeps/strongholds and their benches and vendors)
Player interaction with benches(crafting and extraction)
Resource data(each individual nodes current % and regen rates)
Loot bags(and the items they contain or spawn)
Banks/chests/stable and their loot data

These are just some of the constant things requiring server interaction and constant tracking, that also has to be replicated correctly to each individual client when the data is required. The server(s) have to communicate 10,000s of interactions constantly and have to make sure it's being replicated correctly. Video game networking, server involvement and database interaction is far more taxing compared to some online store making sales on a busy holiday.

We don't even have other major taxing systems added yet, like sieging, territory control, mini games(lock picking), sailing, breeding etc which again, will require a piece of the server side bandwidth pie.

 

[ARandomGerman]

Well I just wanted to find a thing which I have knowledge about as comparison after your "rust tried, didnt work" example of why it should not work.
And while a game requires constant synching of the clients, a big store sure needs a lot more data in bursts to handle. Store in question runs on a ~15TB database and with 5k orders per minute or roughly 100 orders a second has to sync many different systems, keep track of any event that happened, money passed, items reserved, and involves 3rd party systems out of it's own control (like logitstics for example) all while providing sub 500ms responses or the customers aren't happy.

Yeah I can understand that there's lots of things that need to be communicated cross all clients in that area, I just don't buy that it's not possible to make it work with where we are nowadays in terms of technology, efficiency, toolklits, internetspeedc, etc...

I don't know the inside-outs of it but in the dark age of eve-online jita 4-4 with 1k players sitting there copying instant-warp bookmarks to sell to others while the whole system was doing the business as usual on top of that sure was a lagfest, but it was possible that all interactions were going through. they disabled some high-traffic actions (like said bookmarks, but we're talking hundreds of players cloning 1000s of bookmarks per click 24/7) but this all was happening 10+ years ago. 200-300 people in meduli/tindrem/etc dropping a container every once in a while (which does not copy / create clones of all items involved, just assign them to 1 new item which holds them is at least one magnitude of scale smaller.
Just compare your run down the mill Xeon server from back then with what we have today, not even counting Unreal Engine 2/3 vs 4/5, Windows XP/7 vs. 10/11, 6MBit consumer internet vs. 250/1000+, network compression algorythms etc.

And some of your examples just feel like quite static things that don't need millisecond updates near real time to make a difference, for example containers on the ground (which cannot move, don't need server-side collisions, etc..)

That's where I'm coming from / basing my opinion on here.

 

[barcode]

yes it certainly smells of poor coding on the server side. they mentioned before how the pickables (think seadew or cavolo, where the 'actor' is removed when the item is picked) were taking up a lot of server resources which seemed odd to me since the server isnt really doing much with them but tracking their location (which doesnt change). this is quite similar to lootbags, but i cant understand why either of them would take a heavy toll on the server.

I've suggested a 'drop' mechanic in the past along with special restrictions for doing so in town (you can 'drop' in town but all dropped loot goes to the 'garbage pile' where it decays rather than taking up space on the ground where it might get quite cluttered). players can then sift the 'garbage pile' to see if someone else's trash is their gold. if you want to destroy directly then that requires a furnace or other appliance that can destroy the item and noone can recover it then.

if they are concerned about someone dropping a bajillion lootbags outside of town then just use the existing 'node' system for mining and limit drops to one bag per 'node' and any subsequent drops in that node just accumulate in the existing bag

-barcode

 

[Banespike]

a Timer would solve the problem, it’s actually 10 seconds? I also don’t enjoy it if people start throwing away their stuff because they know they gonna die.
if We kill someone and start to loot them we need to wait for like 2 mins before we are able to throw stuff away/ put it in our horse.
would be nice if if the timer to delete/ throw away things while in combat get raised up a bit, and maybe make them need to stand still or something to delete items. Or a animation like if we equip a armor piece.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Yeah people saying it's some great technical challenge are a bit odd. I've seen much smaller games handle much more than just dropping loot on the ground. There are already tons of loot bags from zombies people don't pick up and that doesn't lag out the game

 

[Turbizzler]

Yeah people saying it's some great technical challenge are a bit odd. I've seen much smaller games handle much more than just dropping loot on the ground. There are already tons of loot bags from zombies people don't pick up and that doesn't lag out the game

It is a technical challenge, especially when you have planned future systems that will tap into server resources, while already having server resource intensive systems. When it involves 1000s of players doing things with 1000s of mobs doing things, things like too much physical loot bags can and will cause server traffic issues, which will result in weird client side issues too.

There's a reason not a lot of large scale MMO's allow physical dropped items, and the ones that do, have varying despawn timers(aggressive "garbage collection") to avoid server overload and data base issues.

I don't know why people think everything is so easy when it comes to game development. Most people are just unaware of technical limitations. This is why there's 1000s of shitty indie games, because people are backseat devs who think everything is easy.

 

[yurilai]

Yeah people saying it's some great technical challenge are a bit odd. I've seen much smaller games handle much more than just dropping loot on the ground. There are already tons of loot bags from zombies people don't pick up and that doesn't lag out the game

sir , would you be kind to tell me which game ?

 

[ArcaneConsular]

sir , would you be kind to tell me which game ?

RuneScape. Minecraft. Conan Exiles. And so on. The real reason is probably fear of duping items

 

[ArcaneConsular]

It is a technical challenge, especially when you have planned future systems that will tap into server resources, while already having server resource intensive systems. When it involves 1000s of players doing things with 1000s of mobs doing things, things like too much physical loot bags can and will cause server traffic issues, which will result in weird client side issues too.

There's a reason not a lot of large scale MMO's allow physical dropped items, and the ones that do, have varying despawn timers(aggressive "garbage collection") to avoid server overload and data base issues.

I don't know why people think everything is so easy when it comes to game development. Most people are just unaware of technical limitations. This is why there's 1000s of shitty indie games, because people are backseat devs who think everything is easy.

Mate I work in software development and have made many games myself in the past I can tell you a goddamn loot bag is not hard to implement. First of all it's already dropped by pigs. Zombies. When you die. So no it's not a technical challenge it's already in game. As for server drain sure if you never ever removed the lootbag then yea but leaving it for ten minutes? No. The real reason is probably they can't prevent people from using it to dupe and trade criminal items. Please stop with this ridiculous it's too much for the network bs you have no idea what you're talking about

 

[yurilai]

RuneScape. Minecraft. Conan Exiles. And so on. The real reason is probably fear of duping items

i think the closest would be conan exiles as they used unreal egine 4 . i dont play that game but does that game handle the same player base ?

 

[ArcaneConsular]

i think the closest would be conan exiles as they used unreal egine 4 . i dont play that game but does that game handle the same player base ?

I mean they keep track of thousands of building pieces and thralls and chests the last worry they have is loot bags. Also MO already has loot bags drop on death so I really don't understand how you think they can't also handle dropped items

 

[Micharlus]

There's a reason not a lot of large scale MMO's allow physical dropped items, and the ones that do, have varying despawn timers(aggressive "garbage collection") to avoid server overload and data base issues.

They don't need to be physical though. You don't need to attach any physics to them. They can be just 3D models spawned on the ground with simple interaction system.
If anything I'd assume being able to spam 50 campfires with actual model collisions right outside or sometimes inside towns is much more gruelling task.
If number of items is a problem, just use barcode's node suggestion.

 

[yurilai]

I mean they keep track of thousands of building pieces and thralls and chests the last worry they have is loot bags. Also MO already has loot bags drop on death so I really don't understand how you think they can't also handle dropped items

no i dint say i think anything , im just asking for information actually