What other alternatives to MO2 do we have?

[Emdash]

Why do you live such a life of attention and validation ?

Listen man, noone is gonna care no matter anyone of us do. Be it in a tiny game or the current trendy shat game.
After a game like Mortal, there is no other game that really can feed the hunger for this type of experience, thats why we all keep coming back, hoping for more but getting the least sadly.

hauh? haha @ first part; why put that on me?

People care about everything you do in life and in games. If they didn't, you wouldn't be playing a game where you can so closely interact with people. I'm saying, the bubble is so small it's a joke. If you didn't care about 'attention and validation,' why not play a single player game or PvP 1 on 1 in a very well developed game?

What type of experience are you talking about, that you hunger for, surely not one that involves any sort of attention of validation, right haha.

You got it backwards. I said the only reason people would still be here is for "attention and validation" among a very small crowd, but it's so small that it's not even worth it. It's also massively skewed by what we can only call 'cheating,' making you question what is even actually success (success in MMOs, a form of attention and validation we tend to seek, but we like it to be something we actually achieved!)

Now, some thoughts on MO2:

It's not MO1. It's not MO1. MO1 was flawed. It's not MO1. It's not gonna be MO1. It's not ten years ago. Probably you are seeking some camaraderie from MO1 (aka attention and validation?), that's baked into the experience. That's what MMOs are, social games. This is just a different bend. You know what MO2 reminds me of...? Not Mo1.

Further answers:

Why hasn't someone copied MO1? Tougher than you think! Whatever base engine they had was a good building block. If there was a similar engine out there, someone could grab it and make a better game. I dunno the story of how Henrik came upon MO, but in that he was a visionary. If somehow I am wrong and they truly did build MO from the ground up using unreal engine stuffz then his team is indeed very talented. The fact that it seemed like a lot of the parts of the game... they didn't really understand how they worked, makes me wonder how that could be possible, tho.

There could be a better game without first person, but I don't know if it would be as good just due to that. If Mo2 is good in a year or two, then I guess I underestimated them, but it's really just a hard fail to admit you are coming back to seek something that you know isn't going to be delivered. To me, I enjoyed MO1. I even enjoyed MO2 beta. So, stuff happened... it wasn't like they were set up to fail.

Read this: https://www.engadget.com/2012-01-27-some-assembly-required-a-mortal-online-interview.html

Believe me, man, I might be unstable, but it takes a bit to get me this upset at a game. You know when it happened before? During the launch fiasco. I overcame it, decided to put my toes in the water because I paid out, and see what I could do... the dudes I talk to may still be playing, but almost all of them have expressed their disdain with the game. My point is... at some point make a choice. It's not crack. You're not gonna start wigging out if you play another game. At some point, you will reach the happy realization (rainbow!) that it was the right decision to step away, once you get yourself out of the cycle.

Just my 2c tho CARRYON.

 

[Kaemik]

Every survival game ever when it comes to the hardcore PvP aspect. The depth of ingredient experimentation and viable mounted combat are the main things unique to MO2. I think Conan Exiles is the only other title with a good-feeling mounted system and it's entirely unique within the MMO sphere outside 2d games and games without real combat like Wurm Online. Magic is also pretty rare for a survival PvP title and some of the magic school abilities are pretty unique.

Always kind of funny when people act like mounted combat isn't one of the most unique selling points of this game. It's like... what other games, even if they have mounted combat like Darkfall or ArcheAge, do you not dismount for any kind of serious fight? Mounted combat has never really been done well in MMOs.

 

[korteks]

gloria victus is pretty similar, but less sandbox
more structured
not full loot either, partial
no magic either
combat is smoother and more fast paced but also floaty, compared to MO2

idk, it hasn't held my interest, but then neither has MO2, as I haven't played it in like 2 weeks. At least it broke whatever was remaining of my themepark skinner box addiction

 

[ThaBadMan]

hauh? haha @ first part; why put that on me?

People care about everything you do in life and in games. If they didn't, you wouldn't be playing a game where you can so closely interact with people. I'm saying, the bubble is so small it's a joke. If you didn't care about 'attention and validation,' why not play a single player game or PvP 1 on 1 in a very well developed game?

What type of experience are you talking about, that you hunger for, surely not one that involves any sort of attention of validation, right haha.

You got it backwards. I said the only reason people would still be here is for "attention and validation" among a very small crowd, but it's so small that it's not even worth it. It's also massively skewed by what we can only call 'cheating,' making you question what is even actually success (success in MMOs, a form of attention and validation we tend to seek, but we like it to be something we actually achieved!)

Now, some thoughts on MO2:

It's not MO1. It's not MO1. MO1 was flawed. It's not MO1. It's not gonna be MO1. It's not ten years ago. Probably you are seeking some camaraderie from MO1 (aka attention and validation?), that's baked into the experience. That's what MMOs are, social games. This is just a different bend. You know what MO2 reminds me of...? Not Mo1.

Further answers:

Why hasn't someone copied MO1? Tougher than you think! Whatever base engine they had was a good building block. If there was a similar engine out there, someone could grab it and make a better game. I dunno the story of how Henrik came upon MO, but in that he was a visionary. If somehow I am wrong and they truly did build MO from the ground up using unreal engine stuffz then his team is indeed very talented. The fact that it seemed like a lot of the parts of the game... they didn't really understand how they worked, makes me wonder how that could be possible, tho.

There could be a better game without first person, but I don't know if it would be as good just due to that. If Mo2 is good in a year or two, then I guess I underestimated them, but it's really just a hard fail to admit you are coming back to seek something that you know isn't going to be delivered. To me, I enjoyed MO1. I even enjoyed MO2 beta. So, stuff happened... it wasn't like they were set up to fail.

Read this: https://www.engadget.com/2012-01-27-some-assembly-required-a-mortal-online-interview.html

Believe me, man, I might be unstable, but it takes a bit to get me this upset at a game. You know when it happened before? During the launch fiasco. I overcame it, decided to put my toes in the water because I paid out, and see what I could do... the dudes I talk to may still be playing, but almost all of them have expressed their disdain with the game. My point is... at some point make a choice. It's not crack. You're not gonna start wigging out if you play another game. At some point, you will reach the happy realization (rainbow!) that it was the right decision to step away, once you get yourself out of the cycle.

Just my 2c tho CARRYON.

Some of us play this game for the PvP aspect, only found in this game.
You cant get that in other games. Simple as that.

Noone wants(I hope), never wanted it and most of us told SV for years to not make it into what abomination it became.
We want MO2 to become the MO that MO could never reach, the potential they spoke of so much back then, the vision that never came to be.

Hell I just want them to not create another MO as they are doing, they keep doing the exact same mistakes again as I witnessed with MO.
But history keeps repeating itself...

 

[Jatix]

Alternatives to MO2 are playing any other genre of game. Open pvp mmo's have been dying for years. Not that any open pvp mmo has done that well in a while. But the gaming landscape is just different than it used to be in like 2010. Games seem to die faster now.

I Always ask to myself why no other companyes ever try to copy these features from MO .

Nobody copies MO because it isnt successful. MO2 may have got a lot of buys but all you have to do is look at the steam charts. No company trying to make a long term investment would copy MO when they can copy some gaming fad thats actually doing well.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

What happened to Crowfall exactly I was following it for a while?

Yeah I played it on launch. LazyPeon did a pretty good review of it but basically the game had a number of problems. The main problem for me was the "full loot pvp". You only lost your gear durability on death and the items you have on you. And there was no penalty for killing. So what happens. Well if you're a gatherer you are risking all of your loot and the ganker is risking nothing. On top of that some classes could stealth and be impossible to attack. So they'd unstealth attack - if they were losing - stealth and run. So that was annoying. Secondly the combat was really floaty. The UI had a lot of problems. And the "siege" systems were basically a game of cat and mouse. You take a point - move onto the next and take it. Someone takes one of yours. You take a new one (there were like 60 capture points). And lastly the game was just really boring. They spent too much time making like 12 classes and 12 races so the game had no depth to it. The maps sucked. Etc. The developers gave up on the game and sold it to someone else

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Interesting thx for the info. Yeah the MMO genre is really at rock bottom these days sadly. I still like some single player AAA titles and I certainly wont be going back to those accursed mobile casinos I played for a while. Whether these devs can get it right with MO2 remains to be seen but the signs atm are sadly not encouraging, The steam charts give it all away really less than 3 months ago was a peak of almost 10k players now its down to well under 2k.

Yeah indie MMOs keep making the mistake of having a ton of different races and classes. Probably what MO does right is no classes and only 4 races. It makes the game a lot more manageable. Thats why for example in crowfall every race only had one armor set - because for every armor set they would add they would have to make 12 of them. Etc. It just wastes too much time

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Yes its a bit like Star Citizen a huge gulf between the vision and the technical realities.

Yeah games need to focus on the core gameplay first and add extra stuff later on. Eventually it just becomes so bloated that it makes development hard

 

[Emdash]

Some of us play this game for the PvP aspect, only found in this game.
You cant get that in other games. Simple as that.

Noone wants(I hope), never wanted it and most of us told SV for years to not make it into what abomination it became.
We want MO2 to become the MO that MO could never reach, the potential they spoke of so much back then, the vision that never came to be.

Hell I just want them to not create another MO as they are doing, they keep doing the exact same mistakes again as I witnessed with MO.
But history keeps repeating itself...

Nah, I mean, break it down though. You can't say you play it for the PvP aspect only found in this game because that's not true. There are other aspects like 'the world,' etc that make the pvp more consequential, or did in MO1, but even the idea of full loot means nothing if loot doesn't have a world value. If you spawn in with x weps and go around and grab other weps, kill people, loot them, and it's exactly the same kind of game as MO and it's a big open world... it probably wouldn't even be good, and it definitely wouldn't be like MO.

MO1 was a very complicated game. Even stuff like siege required a lot. It was a world. There was pvp within the world, but when you say pvp, I think you water down what MO was really about. Maybe we are on the same page and you just call it pvp, but to me it's way more than that. If there wasn't stuff like DIPH finally losing his buffed keep and countless other examples, it wouldn't have been as good, right? That's the end game pvp of MO. Even though I am always going to be a small scale person cuz I don't wanna get involved in all that (tho I'd join in fights,) those sort of things happening in the background and what made MO good, and probably made it even better for the people who were driving those things. It was pvp, but it was a platform that allowed pvp on so many levels. Some things helped, first person helped. Full loot helped. But those aren't enough to make a good game like MO. And MO was trash in its own way lol. I mean we all know deep down MO was a garbage ass game, but like I said it had something magical... people competing. Once people stopped competing or lost the need to, the game became boring.

Henrik wanted the game to be role playing, and it was... it was a lot of people who were heavily invested who were doing their thing in the world. BUT IT WAS STILL A BAD GAME. Objectively MO1 was a buggy, exploit filled, lag fest. MO2 hasn't fixed one of those things, all while making the game worse + it is lacking the same competitors or somehow has stifled them.

SV believes they can build a game with a new audience, but they can't. If they lose their core, it will die super fast. But the core that is left are people who are heavily invested due to TC/mats/w/e. That and some dreamers. There will be no refund, but if SV sees the game hit 500 people on steam charts for a week, they might be more open to suggestions. Just sayin'!

 

[ThaBadMan]

Nah, I mean, break it down though. You can't say you play it for the PvP aspect only found in this game because that's not true. There are other aspects like 'the world,' etc that make the pvp more consequential, or did in MO1, but even the idea of full loot means nothing if loot doesn't have a world value. If you spawn in with x weps and go around and grab other weps, kill people, loot them, and it's exactly the same kind of game as MO and it's a big open world... it probably wouldn't even be good, and it definitely wouldn't be like MO.

MO1 was a very complicated game. Even stuff like siege required a lot. It was a world. There was pvp within the world, but when you say pvp, I think you water down what MO was really about. Maybe we are on the same page and you just call it pvp, but to me it's way more than that. If there wasn't stuff like DIPH finally losing his buffed keep and countless other examples, it wouldn't have been as good, right? That's the end game pvp of MO. Even though I am always going to be a small scale person cuz I don't wanna get involved in all that (tho I'd join in fights,) those sort of things happening in the background and what made MO good, and probably made it even better for the people who were driving those things. It was pvp, but it was a platform that allowed pvp on so many levels. Some things helped, first person helped. Full loot helped. But those aren't enough to make a good game like MO. And MO was trash in its own way lol. I mean we all know deep down MO was a garbage ass game, but like I said it had something magical... people competing. Once people stopped competing or lost the need to, the game became boring.

Henrik wanted the game to be role playing, and it was... it was a lot of people who were heavily invested who were doing their thing in the world. BUT IT WAS STILL A BAD GAME. Objectively MO1 was a buggy, exploit filled, lag fest. MO2 hasn't fixed one of those things, all while making the game worse + it is lacking the same competitors or somehow has stifled them.

SV believes they can build a game with a new audience, but they can't. If they lose their core, it will die super fast. But the core that is left are people who are heavily invested due to TC/mats/w/e. That and some dreamers. There will be no refund, but if SV sees the game hit 500 people on steam charts for a week, they might be more open to suggestions. Just sayin'!

Yes I can say that and I am and have been for over 10 years. Because it is true, simple as that.

Other aspects dont matter in this context since they are no driving factor and factors I can get much better off from better games in those aspects. You shouldnt play MO for its PvE since its PvE is trash and so many games have so much better and enjoyful PvE for example.

MO never really got consequential due to whiners and cryers. Just like how MO2 is less consequential then MO ever was or became.

The idea of full loot means what it means even if gear or items hold value or not. PvPers want the fight not the loot although the loot is a nice bonus.
Theres a reason most PvPers use looted gear and dont farm their own, they dont want to play the boring aspects of MO2 but only want the fights and make their living through it.

If you spawn with gear, such a game is far from what MO and MO2 is.

MO was made as complicated as it could simply due to making is complicated, Henrik in his error thought complicated systems would benefit themselves and didnt see the giant amount of negatives following overly complicated systems for no gain above bragging rights.

I am watering down what PvP means in MO and MO2 because I state I play the game mainly for PvP ?

First person didnt help, it made the atmosphere of MO possible. Without it it aint MO anymore.
Full loot didnt help, MO would not be possible without it, take it away and away goes MO.
Those by itself wont make a good game like we saw happened with MO and is happening with MO2, but take em out and MO does not exist, so they are pretty essential, just like the open world and PvP aspects.

MO started out good but became a garbage trash game over time, just like is happening to MO2, the special sawce if you like is the aspects that is essential for a game like MO to be well MO.
MO never really was a competition based game, not even when skill was the most deciding factor, you only ever had a handful of Elite PvP groups. Training takes time and effort, something humanity is retardedly bad at, thats why both MO and MO2 cut off the skill factor because the hordes whining about elite players is overshadowing the tiny screams for it to return.

Role playing and PvP was the only things you could do in MO and so far in MO2. Everything else is bare boned place holder systems for the finished product.
Those are only working due to the sandbox nature of the game but are made worse by limiting systems.

Henriks biggest mistake is to not stop, catch his breath and finish the core game and already made systems and features before launching new content to appease the low attention span children that infest games of today.
Pushing new broken content on top of a already broken game will never solve anything. SV needs to finish the MO2 we have to then fully test new content BEFORE launching it mostly bug free or hold new content until it is mostly bug free.

Yes they are successfully chasing away long time core fans with the new shenanigans they continue to do non stop and dont have a good enough game to hold new players or casuals which seems to be the new targeted audience sadly for all true fans...

 

[Emdash]

Yes I can say that and I am and have been for over 10 years. Because it is true, simple as that.

Theres a reason most PvPers use looted gear and dont farm their own, they dont want to play the boring aspects of MO2 but only want the fights and make their living through it.

Role playing and PvP was the only things you could do in MO and so far in MO2. Everything else is bare boned place holder systems for the finished product.
Those are only working due to the sandbox nature of the game but are made worse by limiting systems.

yea, unfort someone has to make the gear tho. There are prol more people making gear than looting it, hence why there is a ton of blah gear. What I am saying is, "The world you are pvping in is only possible because of the world people have made for you to pvp in, including people who enjoy crafting and pve." Without that, and MOST IMPORTANTLY WITHOUT THAT. There is no MO. I mean, that factor is as important as full loot or first person. No good enough gear, no good gear, etc, no game. That was the point I was making. The world has to function on many levels and just as you are a pvper who only pvps, there are crafters who only craft. It has to be like that. In the end, everyone is looking for their place in the world. You might be able to get fights and such because you have been there for 10 years, but if you just spawned in, it would take you awhile to be able to do stuff because you wouldn't have a network of people willing to throw you some throw away gear in order for you to obtain decent stuff. That 'network of people,' the vets, is also part of the world I speak of that is necessary for MO to thrive. Of those only pvpers there are probably people who are just as hardcore at pvp that also enjoy making gear.

I don't think practicing or getting good is any hurdle. In every game I've ever played, people have been willing to put in effort if that was their goal. In MO, there is the hurdle of people cheating, though, that will drive away some players who would probably be great. In general, it seemed to me when I logged into MO2, people were practicing (albeit dueling lol) more than playing the game.

I don't disagree w/ most of your premises, but I still stand by what I said: Henrik seems to believe the game can survive without the pvp community, and I am very sure it can't. Until the pvp community takes a stand (again, not by killing nubs cuz then they get griefed by mechanic changes + trolled by the nubs on forums,) this will not become apparent. Stop punishing yourself by playing a bad game. Or a game that 'a good fight' happens 1 out of every 30 times. As I said in another thread earlier, this can become an issue in a lot of competitive games that you just queue in for, but at least you don't have to look for it. And if you're not getting it, you can log off with nothing lost.

Peace tho; I wish MO was good. I don't think you are truly understanding what I am saying about PvP being driven by 'the world' and that being the reason why MO 'open world pvp' is what it is... but it might be a language barrier issue. That's all I got tho.

I'm just sayin tho... I gave it a good shot. I'm not a hardcore pvper; I don't have a bunch of friends in game. I have a pretty good imagination and can find something to do, but MO2 just fell off. Some due to changes, and honestly I think the alt server and the 'reason for removing alt servers,' hit me pretty hard, too.

 

[Kaemik]

Some of us play this game for the PvP aspect, only found in this game.
You cant get that in other games. Simple as that.

I feel like it has to be the PvP aspect plus some other factors. Or else what aspect of MO2 PvP do you feel survival titles lack when played on hardcore PvP servers?

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah indie MMOs keep making the mistake of having a ton of different races and classes. Probably what MO does right is no classes and only 4 races. It makes the game a lot more manageable. Thats why for example in crowfall every race only had one armor set - because for every armor set they would add they would have to make 12 of them. Etc. It just wastes too much time

I feel like the largest mistake indie MMOs make is promising their userbase an MMO before the project reaches alpha when many of them are released by development teams without a single successful title under their belt. At most they have a few people on the team that were a part of successful projects over a decade ago, or in the worst-case scenario, it's a team like Starvault that has nothing under their belt which has ever truly succeeded.

I've always thought if I made an MMO, I'd do it in phases.

First, I'd make an arena combat game. I'd just absolutely focus everything on nailing the combat and making it feel awesome. Making a very small number of build options and equipment that's well balanced and offers a fun variety of customization options. And as far as my community would be aware, that's the game. That's what I'm selling. This great arena combat game. And that's how it will stay until I feel like I have something incredibly solid.

And the one day. BOOM dungeons! My arena combat game has dungeons now. Same combat system. Same character customization options. But now there are these dungeons you can play through on the same characters. And that's how it will stay until I feel like I have something incredibly solid.

Then BOOM crafting! Wow, that came out of nowhere, but it's done right with a lot of detail and not just some half-ass slapped-together thing like the crafting in 99% of MMOs. And that's how it will stay until I feel like I have something incredibly solid.

Then BOOM! Houses! There are cities you can buy houses in! Sweet! Bet you never saw that coming. And that's how it will stay until I feel like I have something incredibly solid.

And then all of a sudden, BOOM! An entire world! All these systems I've been implementing slowly over time are tied together to create an MMO. At no point did I beg my community for money. Just simply sold them what I already had and what was already working. At no point did I reel people in on the promises of what might happen in 20 years. Just promoted the game features I already had and made them quality enough people would want to pay for them.

That's what I think the issue is. You get all these games that overpromise and underdeliver and sometimes they aren't even bad games when not held up to the standards of their original promises. I think a great example of that was Dust 514, the EVE FPS. It is to date most fun FPS I have ever played, and I know others who say the same. Just an insanely fun game. But it wasn't measured on the standard of how good of an FPS it was. It was measured on the standard of how well it lived up to the promised EVE integration (Not very well). And that combined with its PS3 exclusive release totally sunk an otherwise amazing game.

That's why I personally would take things as slowly as I need to in order to underpromise and overdeliver. You promise people an MMO and make a great arena combat game and they'll be pissed even if it turns into a great MMO 10 years down the road. You sell a great arena combat and then start adding on extra features until it morphs into something bigger, and they'll be blown away when in 10 years it becomes an MMO.

 

[Jatix]

I feel like it has to be the PvP aspect plus some other factors. Or else what aspect of MO2 PvP do you feel survival titles lack when played on hardcore PvP servers?

Conan exiles PVP is possibly the worst melee combat pvp I've ever experienced, not sure how the game is so popular.

But yes to me its the other factors that make games like MO extra superior to survival games. Survival games arent 1 server, which kills most of the vibe. You kill a guy he just leaves and goes to a diff server. Also they always suck. Also you usually cant log out and your base just gets sacked while offline, which makes progress feel like crap, and temporary. MO you have towns to store valuables.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Conan exiles PVP is possibly the worst melee combat pvp I've ever experienced, not sure how the game is so popular.

But yes to me its the other factors that make games like MO extra superior to survival games. Survival games arent 1 server, which kills most of the vibe. You kill a guy he just leaves and goes to a diff server. Also they always suck. Also you usually cant log out and your base just gets sacked while offline, which makes progress feel like crap, and temporary. MO you have towns to store valuables.

Yeah I like CE for the raiding and building aspects but combat is basically you both dance around each other until someone makes a mistake and gets stuck in a corner and gets stunlocked to death

 

[Kaemik]

Conan exiles PVP is possibly the worst melee combat pvp I've ever experienced, not sure how the game is so popular.

But yes to me its the other factors that make games like MO extra superior to survival games. Survival games arent 1 server, which kills most of the vibe. You kill a guy he just leaves and goes to a diff server. Also they always suck. Also you usually cant log out and your base just gets sacked while offline, which makes progress feel like crap, and temporary. MO you have towns to store valuables.

Yeah offline sacking sucks. From what I understand though, that's going to be more costly but just as possible in this game.

 

[MolagAmur]

Yeah offline sacking sucks. From what I understand though, that's going to be more costly but just as possible in this game.

Yeah but "more costly" isn't going to change anything. Over time gold becomes pretty useless and most everyone eventually is sitting on stacks and stacks of the gear they need. So what else you gonna spend the gold on? Besides trinket charges. Its not a solution...its just some lazy idea SV came up with.

 

[Raknor]

Yeah but "more costly" isn't going to change anything. Over time gold becomes pretty useless and most everyone eventually is sitting on stacks and stacks of the gear they need. So what else you gonna spend the gold on? Besides trinket charges. Its not a solution...its just some lazy idea SV came up with.

Costly doesn't mean just gold, it can be a time sink. And sometimes you can't throw money at the problem, even paying well it wasn't easy to outsource people gathering boulders in MO1 so only the people motivated to do the siege would do it and that took considerable time.

This is all going to change with the supply chain thing but I expect there are time sinks involved there that you can't just buy your way out of.

 

[ThaBadMan]

I feel like it has to be the PvP aspect plus some other factors. Or else what aspect of MO2 PvP do you feel survival titles lack when played on hardcore PvP servers?

Yes it is the mmorpg and PvP aspect only found here.
No other game can grip the same feeling .

Survival games normally have low cap count, its never forced fpv and never directional combat ala MO, DM, M&B, etc.
They are not one server or one regional server not even only a couple servers but loads upon loads. If you start smashing groups, they simply leave to other servers ruining the experience.
They also normally involve alot more cheese mechanics and/or have some retarded forms of gameplay that I personally dont like thats trendy.

All in all, all such games ive tried I havent gotten my moneys worth or simply are clones of eachother since its trendy.

 

[Emdash]

Yes it is the mmorpg and PvP aspect only found here.
No other game can grip the same feeling .

Survival games normally have low cap count, its never forced fpv and never directional combat ala MO, DM, M&B, etc.
They are not one server or one regional server not even only a couple servers but loads upon loads. If you start smashing groups, they simply leave to other servers ruining the experience.
They also normally involve alot more cheese mechanics and/or have some retarded forms of gameplay that I personally dont like thats trendy.

All in all, all such games ive tried I havent gotten my moneys worth or simply are clones of eachother since its trendy.

some are fun for awhile, but MO kept you coming back to see what was happening. lol Like at one point I cared who had the keeps. That's the sign of a functioning sandbox. I don't think I've ever played a game like that where you absolutely had to know info like that to get by. Again: MO, the only game I ever subbed to. Eat shit buds. IT CAN BE FIXED.