What is the Downside of Archery/ MA?

[Shoovul]

yea they need to add the same thing that mount and blade had where if you arent on your horse and it gets attacked it will run away, or atleast give me the option to make my horse "flee" when i dismount to enter foot combat. horses need a major health buff to make the game more about attacking the rider and not the horse cause it will be to beefy. Every other medieval game ive played always has beefy horses and you always attack the rider, if its a MC or a lancer then you would spear the horse to make it rear then poke the rider. beefyier horses would keep more player retention cause im sure most people who arent MA usually end up with their horse dead and the enemy horse dead and the winner gets to walk home with the loot while looking for a horse spawn

Yeah had the same general idea, but I don't think super beefy mounts will be good in MO2, they'll be annoying as hell because people will find a way to exploit it. Horses rearing and throwing off the rider after taking enough damage on the other hand is pretty cool and makes sense from a realism standpoint more, just needs some careful balancing. Having them run off 30-60m after that would be the cherry on top (well maybe not for the fatmages). Also the combat balance and knockback resistance will actually become useful in general not only against 2H hammers.

I explored a somewhat similar idea earlier here https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/possible-solution-for-ma-and-tamers-dominators.6536/

What do you think, is it possible to make some sort of combination of these?

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at - only I actually think that marksmanship is a very useful skill. Being able to ignore the helmet's armour is extremely good value; but what you've said is right: If you're not aiming for center mass, you're going to miss far more often than you hit - and it's already pretty hard to hit.

Well, that's the issue. It might be nice when it procs but if it only procs on a lucky miss of your intended target, how much value are you actually getting? I don't feel like it's worth 100 primary points for that small off-chance. If they want to reward skillshots it should be a secondary under something that gives more consistent value. Make actually landing a headshot the price paid instead of 100 primaries.

 

[Kreedee]

I just can't believe there is no adult in the dev team telling them they need to nerf MA damage by 80% until they figure out a way to balance it. How can you let this broke ass shit go for so long. Any mage will get stomped by these 0 skill turds riding around killing mounts and have 1 dismount while the other shoots you. Run and you take damage until you die in your low defence armor. Stop to cast and you get chopped by 70s.

There is no counter play and anyone that says there is have either fought people with 10 hours in the game or is just trolling.

How noone stopped to think that maybe there needs to be some sort of at least soft anti-gank mechanics is very scary for the future of this game.

And no, wobble on bow won't do fuckall when an MA can just sit on your horse till your horse armor breaks after healing through the first 50 arrows.

 

[Khulan]

I just can't believe there is no adult in the dev team telling them they need to nerf MA damage by 80% until they figure out a way to balance it....

I think the majority of people consider magery to be more effective at PvP than archery. I do.

 

[Tzone]

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at - only I actually think that marksmanship is a very useful skill. Being able to ignore the helmet's armour is extremely good value; but what you've said is right: If you're not aiming for center mass, you're going to miss far more often than you hit - and it's already pretty hard to hit.

Shortbows and asym bows can ignore armour, but longbows can't (dur, unless you're using not-longbow arrows). This seems somewhat backwards to me, and at the very least longbows should get the same benefit. You're already consigned to not being mounted while using a longbow, and the other types of bows can get quite close to the damage of a longbow, so why are longbows forced to only ever do 30 damage or so to some tin can's head where the other, 'weaker' bows can do 70 or 80 with marksmanship - and from on top of a horse to boot.

You will miss most of the time even if you are very good when you aim center mass. You can get easy hits of bad players but most competent players will be moving properly.

Marksmenship is pretty much PvE only.

Longbows can use broadhead arrows to weakspot. The arrows is what allows you to weakspot, not the bow. Better arc and slightly better damage then a short bow using broadheads.

 

[Tzone]

I just can't believe there is no adult in the dev team telling them they need to nerf MA damage by 80% until they figure out a way to balance it. How can you let this broke ass shit go for so long. Any mage will get stomped by these 0 skill turds riding around killing mounts and have 1 dismount while the other shoots you. Run and you take damage until you die in your low defence armor. Stop to cast and you get chopped by 70s.

There is no counter play and anyone that says there is have either fought people with 10 hours in the game or is just trolling.

How noone stopped to think that maybe there needs to be some sort of at least soft anti-gank mechanics is very scary for the future of this game.

And no, wobble on bow won't do fuckall when an MA can just sit on your horse till your horse armor breaks after healing through the first 50 arrows.

I main mage, MA is easily counted by foot mages. MMs can live for a long ass time against a MA,

MA does not deal damage well to foot players anyway because its actually pretty touch to hit foot players that are moving properly as a MA.

For Foot v MA the issue is that all mounted can just run away and stop fighting when ever they want. The long bow and even magic are decent deterrents. Long bows just destroy mounts. No MA can trade against a archer and mounts are super weak to archery and in general right now. Archery both foot and mounted is just very weak at landing arrows on players.

MAs can just kill mounts easily and run away from any foot fighter. Its also easy to land hits on mounts.

 

[adrelik]

Downsides of MA:
- Can't hug trees/terrain like a someone on foot. Mages and foot archers can peek out from behind rocks and trees and hit the MA but it's very hard to hit them back
- Horses are a massive squishy target, especially for longbows
- Once dismounted you are forced into a foot fight and the points you have spent in taming, creature control, controlled riding, MA and even archery are now pretty much useless
- When your horse dies you are going to either spend a lot of gold or a lot of time taming and training one up again. Low level horses are suicide on an MA as they will get 2 shot
- Aiming isn't actually that easy when the person you are fighting is semi competent player. Firing arrows from a moving horse at a zigzagging player is not easy

I've said it before but the primary issue with MAs are the players who do drive by horse kills and then ride off into the distance. This behaviour by a select few griefers makes it seem like MAs are untouchable but in an actual fight this isn't the case

 

[Kaemik]

Once dismounted you are forced into a foot fight and the points you have spent in taming, creature control, controlled riding, MA and even archery are now pretty much useless

Taming is a misclassified profession. Horses are tradable. You actually don't need (and really shouldn't have) taming points on a main character. Horses aren't even that expensive at the brokers in most towns. So inexpensive, I barely use my dedicated tamer alt in-fact.

So controlled riding, MA, and 16 creature control are your big losses on most pure MA builds. Plus 100 Mammalia. (Though obviously if your build can do more than just archery mounted those values go up a bit.)

 

[Branjolf]

Taming is a misclassified profession. Horses are tradable. You actually don't need (and really shouldn't have) taming points on a main character. Horses aren't even that expensive at the brokers in most towns. So inexpensive, I barely use my dedicated tamer alt in-fact.

So controlled riding, MA, and 16 creature control are your big losses on most pure MA builds. Plus 100 Mammalia. (Though obviously if your build can do more than just archery mounted those values go up a bit.)

Sure you can buy horses in TOWNS ... luckily there are towns everywhere right and you are not completely fucked when you lose your mount in the wilderness ...

 

[Kreedee]

I main mage, MA is easily counted by foot mages. MMs can live for a long ass time against a MA,

MA does not deal damage well to foot players anyway because its actually pretty touch to hit foot players that are moving properly as a MA.

For Foot v MA the issue is that all mounted can just run away and stop fighting when ever they want. The long bow and even magic are decent deterrents. Long bows just destroy mounts. No MA can trade against a archer and mounts are super weak to archery and in general right now. Archery both foot and mounted is just very weak at landing arrows on players.

MAs can just kill mounts easily and run away from any foot fighter. Its also easy to land hits on mounts.

It's not about who beats who in a 1v1. It's about who gets to pick a favorable fight, and right now MA has no competition in that area. Henrik mentioned the importance of sheep vs wolves in one of his streams, but if the sheep has no chance of successfully escaping the wolves they simply wont bother. This is probably why MO1 failed as much as everyone keeps saying, and something a dev team of 10 years should have learned by now.

 

[adrelik]

Taming is a misclassified profession. Horses are tradable. You actually don't need (and really shouldn't have) taming points on a main character. Horses aren't even that expensive at the brokers in most towns. So inexpensive, I barely use my dedicated tamer alt in-fact.

So controlled riding, MA, and 16 creature control are your big losses on most pure MA builds. Plus 100 Mammalia. (Though obviously if your build can do more than just archery mounted those values go up a bit.)

Taming is optional for sure. But if a MA does a drive by horse killing on your mount in the wilderness then it comes in really useful

 

[ArcaneConsular]

MA is great for PVE but gimped for PvP, except in certain instances. Right now, any melee can pick up archery, get a good bow and kill an MA horse. If that happens, most Full MA chars are completely overwhelmed on foot. As a full MA character, I've decided to pick up axes for when I do indeed end up on the ground, but I doubt I'd get the kill on a fully skilled melee.....even if they were hurt already. However, MA is great in a group and you can do wonders as a support player; even better if there is a mage to keep the horse alive.

Idk why people use the argument of 'well if you kill there horse and overwhelm them with 3 feet fighters then...'. Like yeah no duh. Like saying 'Well if you beat them to 1hp then they are easy to kill'. Obviously that goes for every player

 

[Rankor]

Idk why people use the argument of 'well if you kill there horse and overwhelm them with 3 feet fighters then...'. Like yeah no duh. Like saying 'Well if you beat them to 1hp then they are easy to kill'. Obviously that goes for every player

I did not say "overwhelm them with 3 feet fighters". Even 1v1, if a melee with a bow gets a full MA on the ground, the MA will be rundown by that melee.

 

[Khulan]

A mounted archer is a lot like an interceptor in EvE: They don't do a lot of damage solo, but they are fast and sticky and can bog you down long enough for their friends to arrive.

Given equal skill in a 1v1 between a MA and a footie, I'd put my money on the footie every time. I think that most people who have actually fought a lot of other players will agree with me.

Disclaimer: I am not a PvP god yet, but I am on the road towards that goal.

edit: I would agree that giving archers a 'weak point' of sorts would be okay. Maybe make the combined weight of their arm armour affect draw speed?

 

[Kiki]

I think the majority of people consider magery to be more effective at PvP than archery. I do.

Since you make a generalisation here, Id like to point out that I dont think thats true. Always dependend on the situation

 

[Khulan]

What are your reasons for not thinking it's true?

Most people I know will cite the hitscan mechanic of magery to be the one most significant advantage it has in PvP over archery, and I wholeheartedly agree with them.

 

[Kreedee]

What are your reasons for not thinking it's true?

Most people I know will cite the hitscan mechanic of magery to be the one most significant advantage it has in PvP over archery, and I wholeheartedly agree with them.

I bet they also play FF with MA because mage is too easy and they came to play a hardcore pvp game

 

[ArcaneConsular]

What are your reasons for not thinking it's true?

Most people I know will cite the hitscan mechanic of magery to be the one most significant advantage it has in PvP over archery, and I wholeheartedly agree with them.

Idk trying to hit someone with the hitscan is harder than it looks when they're moving around a lot

 

[ArcaneConsular]

I did not say "overwhelm them with 3 feet fighters". Even 1v1, if a melee with a bow gets a full MA on the ground, the MA will be rundown by that melee.

First of all - all MAs have weapons. They might be missing out on a 5% damage bonus or something I suppose. Secondly again that's presuming you kill their horse which means that you'd have to also have a bow or magic

 

[Khulan]

Idk trying to hit someone with the hitscan is harder than it looks when they're moving around a lot

Yeah, you're right. But in equal circumstances it will always be easier to hit something with a laser than with a catapult, you know?