What does Hardcore in MMORPG mean to you?

[Midkemma]

This vid claims that hardcore is basically open PvP and it got me thinking what other people think that the term "Hardcore" means to them along with the other descriptions given to MO.
Don't worry about the rest of the vid.
It is how he describes games like MO that peaked my curiosity.


So basically a simple questions to you all:

What does "Hardcore" mean to you when referencing games.

I'll start it off.
For me, Hardcore means dedicated and not hiding anything behind curtains.
I'd call myself a Hardcore Arsenal FC supporter. I read all the news, watch every game, seek out all the sh*t I can as I want to know about Arsenal FC. It is something I'll check multiple times a day.

So I'd say that Hardcore (when referencing and MMO/ MO2) includes the willingness to seek information outside of the game instance. I'd also say the passion to seek it out multiple times a day.

That is just me though.
What do you all think?
Is JSH right to box hardcore as open world PvP while ignoring the other elements?

 

[Emdash]

I think that's passion. I mean people do that with Furcadia prol (I DL'd furcadia back in the day, not really knowing what it was... I SWEAR.)

I agree with it in regards to 'in game,' but I think I know people who I would consider hardcore who aren't really news fiends.

Here's my hardcore, especially in reference to open pvp sandboxes:

I think hardcore begins as "a world." (This might get confusing.) From it being a world, then things begin to matter. IMMERSION is the first step to making a game hardcore NOT how often you can pvp or where. You start with the world, make it something that it's like "when you die in the game you die IRL" (haha, well I mean you can tell by how MO affects people's brains it has a huge impact on them.) Then, within that world, you have to start allowing it to shape itself. You need very minimal intervention, but sometimes intervention is required. Systems that intervene, to me, are not so good because they will never grasp the whole of the "living, breathing, ever-changing" world.

So, hardcore is that. The ability to PvP, make friends, allies, enemies, grief (to some extent, as long as your playstyle isn't hard grief; I still think those people need to be removed), build/shape (again to some extent because we've seen people abuse stuff like walls.)

For instance, mechanics like... blacklisting, whitelisting (not to allow pvp in town, but to allow bad rep in town), turning off guards, etc etc, those are sandbox features. I think there should be some of the larger towns like maybe MK and Tindrem that cannot be affected in those ways because if you just make EVERYTHING hardcore, you will drive off everyone. There needs to be some haven for people who are mostly strong willed but say don't wanna get down with the zerglings (for instance me, ahem.) I quit cuz walls cuz that was basically the same idea, zergs had gated everything w/ pw'd walls and such it's just like fuck diz gam.

You have to keep a non 'in-crowd' population to keep your game hardcore. The game needs wild tribesmen. Otherwise it just becomes a big nutcup as coined.

A hardcore MMO should behave like a real world and the more things you can do that mimic reality the better (lol to a point, don't put words in my mouth!!) Systems should not inhibit the tools the player has. More tools = more hardcore, but again, in an ideal world there would be some level of moderation if those tools were being used outside of 'intended game mechanics.' I'm not one of those wew sandbox creative thinking people. I'm a rules AS WRITTEN person.

The never safe part of MO I think is overrated and has led to a lot of bandaids that affected the parts of the game that shouldn't be safe. I think people should have a reasonable expectation of safety in certain places, and they added a lot of safety (guards @ appliances etc,) that maybe was heavy handed. Still, the world also needs towns people.

There needs to be a balance between imperial soldier/barbarian/traveling salesman/citizen. Something MO has NOT achieved, and while I don't think MO1 failed, per se, I think it was what it wanted to be... I do think that the 'good full loot sandbox' will take those kind of things into account. Some day someone will figure it out. If SV doesn't wanna be the first, they don't have to!

 

[Jackdstripper]

Obviously hardcore means different things to different people. Its a very subjective definition.

for some people WoW’s pvp servers are hardcore, for others only permadeath is hardcore.

 

[KebekLorde]

My personal interpretation for Mortal in this case would be that the game won't do almost any hand holding for you. Once you start, tutorial will cover the most basic of basics but other then that, you figure out everything yourself no matter how complex it may be.

Nothing is freely given, be it information, resources not even safety. Just today there was almost successful attack on my horse in middle of a bank with 20 people and couple guards around.
You have to work for everything and even then, you'll be often faced with circumstances that you can't do anything about, where you'll lose many things you've spent a lot of time on getting.

 

[Jybwee]

I think if i HAD to break it down to the simplest form, i'd equate 'Hardcore' with 'Severe Death Penalty' or maybe severe failure penalty to be even more encompassing.

I mean of course it's subjective. But i don't think PvP necessarily has anything to do with it.

Permadeath is certainly hardcore, but even some of those rogue-like metroid-vania games mess with that definition. Giving you all types of bonuses to spawn a new character with.

 

[Hodo]

This vid claims that hardcore is basically open PvP and it got me thinking what other people think that the term "Hardcore" means to them along with the other descriptions given to MO.
Don't worry about the rest of the vid.
It is how he describes games like MO that peaked my curiosity.


So basically a simple questions to you all:

What does "Hardcore" mean to you when referencing games.

I'll start it off.
For me, Hardcore means dedicated and not hiding anything behind curtains.
I'd call myself a Hardcore Arsenal FC supporter. I read all the news, watch every game, seek out all the sh*t I can as I want to know about Arsenal FC. It is something I'll check multiple times a day.

So I'd say that Hardcore (when referencing and MMO/ MO2) includes the willingness to seek information outside of the game instance. I'd also say the passion to seek it out multiple times a day.

That is just me though.
What do you all think?
Is JSH right to box hardcore as open world PvP while ignoring the other elements?

I like JSH, but his take on this subject is skewed by the fact he doesnt care for pvp. It would be like me giving my advise and suggestions on gardening, when in fact I could careless about it and find it to be tedious and boring but I have done it once or twice.

 

[CherryKush]

With todays "victim culture" everything outside of a gathering simulator is "hardcore" to them.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Jee you seriously cite a clickbait YouTuber that makes a living off of making every video titles 'This is the worst MMO ever!'. Maybe he just makes negative videos because it's easy money. Hm. Maybe someone that only makes negative reviews just hates video games. Who knows

 

[MolagAmur]

"hardcore" is just a buzzword.

 

[Emdash]

"hardcore" is just a buzzword.

it is, but it's not. Being face 2 face with someone is hardcore. Forums can be hardcore, but not as hardcore as MO can be. The less inhibited the interaction is, the more hardcore it is. But yea a lot of people wanna think they are hardcore or whatever. I don't think a hardcore set up is destined to fail like most people imply. That's why it needs layers. Soft layers make it more hardcore, too. More people w/ more play styles = more hardcore. That's why even tho MO2 is dedish already, it still needs to change from what MO1 was because the pop number is much different.

If dudes want straight up hardcore pvp pick a fair game and go as hard as you can. Chess, video games, mma (lol), whatever. There are so many dynamics in MMO that make it so that most people can 'guard their face' from those face to face moments w/ various tactics. Still, in the end, under all the extra is just one person and another person, a naked body v a naked body and one person obtains what the other person lost. That is pretty hardcore. Unfortunately, human nature is to stack the odds in your favor, and a lot of people can't handle 'being bullied' like that. Thus, the thing I said about MO doing crazy things to people's brains.

Given that it's a MMO, I def think MO is the most hardcore one evor, and it has a chance to be successful or maybe they missed it w/ launch fail. Everything + first person... hopefully more and more systems, more necessities (systems like food that people say wahhh it's stopping me from pvping so wack!!), it has potential. It's sad if that's all there is. But the game is bleeding people hard, and it's not because it's hardcore.

I have this problem in life when things happen and, to me, it's obviously NOT because of a reason, but people say GAMES FAILING LOLOL CUZ OPEN PVP LOLOL it's like nah that's not why, but how can you dispute it? It's pretty tough to stomach.

"It's data, man"

 

[Midkemma]

Thank you all.
I find it interesting to see other peoples perspectives. I thought I'd get more of a well thought out response on here ^.^ The help chat can show a way of thinking which feels more like gatekeeping than helping and I've spoken to ppl in RL who have a broad spectrum >.< lol.

I wonder what SV perspective of it is. What do they mean when they call MO hardcore? I'm guessing the ability to put up with poor PvP systems XD

I like JSH, but his take on this subject is skewed by the fact he doesnt care for pvp. It would be like me giving my advise and suggestions on gardening, when in fact I could careless about it and find it to be tedious and boring but I have done it once or twice.

I think the PvP he likes is very much small arena with no risk, kinda like the games which make anyone feel good PvPing no matter how poor you are. Like New World PvP. XD lol.

Jee you seriously cite a clickbait YouTuber that makes a living off of making every video titles 'This is the worst MMO ever!'. Maybe he just makes negative videos because it's easy money. Hm. Maybe someone that only makes negative reviews just hates video games. Who knows

I was watching Asmongold Mortal Online vid and then this was what YouTube threw at me next. I find his (jsh) look on themepark games to be informative as I tend to play more single player games if I want that sort of thing. Plus I find JSH 50 second long clips to be funny from time to time.

With todays "victim culture" everything outside of a gathering simulator is "hardcore" to them.

I feel like I should try and counter this...
But nah, I do see a lot of players expecting things to work out for them somehow and if not then bad game. It is also too easy to find comments (in soooo many game forums) that'll claim the game will die because they don't have WoW numbers and the game should then be more like... Urghh.... Nope!
While I may not have such a strict mindset, I think I see where your coming from and the point you make.

I'll bend on QoL points. Things that'll teach the player how to handle the game/ think in that games logic.
We all need to grow up though and realise that life will sometimes hand you a big bag of crap. Learning how to deal with that and come out smelling like roses is a skill that I do think games can teach. Well, at least to an extent. I've had plans in RL that have failed due to unforeseen issues and I've had to pick myself up, "regear" and "get back on my horse".

I've got 3 capacious bags for horse armours and 3 again for small horse bags... Ready for when sh*t hits the fan. I know overkill but hey... Life has handed me a fair few bags of sh*t over the years lol.

 

[justme]

Hardcore = visible ranking system. Casual = unrated random pvp.

Just like when you play basketball (or any other sport). A hardcore player joins a league, tracks wins losses and stats, strict rules and even 5v5 teams. A casual player just shows up to pug games has some fun and forgets their wins and losses a few days later...often plays games with various disadvantages or advantages such as 3v4 or 4v5.

 

[a.out]

For me it means that you can actually lose your shit. It means that the game does not have to simulate the infinite carrot on a stick as there is actual tangible joy derived from overcoming the challenge of simply keeping your spoils - or take those from others.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

For me, it means a player can actually play as a highway robber and take another player's hard-earned goods, whether dead or alive.

It means the moment you step outside of guard zone, you're on your own and you should not expect anyone to hear you or come to your aid if something goes horribly wrong. Unless you happen to have friends or hired mercs to back you up, but if not then you are alone.

Not having the game tell you where to go or what to do, the world is wide open and, unpredictable, and without levelled zones. You could have weak mobs in one area one day, and powerful ones in that same area on another. Thanks SV for dynamic spawners.

Even in town, your safety is not assured. Someone could sneak up behind you to try to bash your head in before the guards can take them out.

A thief could stick their hands in your pocket and run off with a handful of your goods while you're logging out. Nowhere is completely safe.

Learning from mistakes (sometimes painfully) instead of being prevented from making them because the game wants to protect and coddle you and make sure you have the most enjoyable experience (whatever that means).

That's what hardcore means to me.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Thank you all.
I find it interesting to see other peoples perspectives. I thought I'd get more of a well thought out response on here ^.^ The help chat can show a way of thinking which feels more like gatekeeping than helping and I've spoken to ppl in RL who have a broad spectrum >.< lol.

I wonder what SV perspective of it is. What do they mean when they call MO hardcore? I'm guessing the ability to put up with poor PvP systems XD





I think the PvP he likes is very much small arena with no risk, kinda like the games which make anyone feel good PvPing no matter how poor you are. Like New World PvP. XD lol.




I was watching Asmongold Mortal Online vid and then this was what YouTube threw at me next. I find his (jsh) look on themepark games to be informative as I tend to play more single player games if I want that sort of thing. Plus I find JSH 50 second long clips to be funny from time to time.




I feel like I should try and counter this...
But nah, I do see a lot of players expecting things to work out for them somehow and if not then bad game. It is also too easy to find comments (in soooo many game forums) that'll claim the game will die because they don't have WoW numbers and the game should then be more like... Urghh.... Nope!
While I may not have such a strict mindset, I think I see where your coming from and the point you make.

I'll bend on QoL points. Things that'll teach the player how to handle the game/ think in that games logic.
We all need to grow up though and realise that life will sometimes hand you a big bag of crap. Learning how to deal with that and come out smelling like roses is a skill that I do think games can teach. Well, at least to an extent. I've had plans in RL that have failed due to unforeseen issues and I've had to pick myself up, "regear" and "get back on my horse".

I've got 3 capacious bags for horse armours and 3 again for small horse bags... Ready for when sh*t hits the fan. I know overkill but hey... Life has handed me a fair few bags of sh*t over the years lol.

Just look through their video history dude literally calls every game the worst game ever. Part of the circle of 'game reviewers' who somehow love mmos but simultaneously hate everyone they play. Maybe they throw in some oh but I liked x game from 20 years ago. They just do it because people like to watch others crap on games

 

[Yskonyn]

Hardcore refers to the games of old where the UI was often pretty much non existent, manuals absent and gameplay mechanics opaque.
It took a fair bit of trail and error to actually learn to play such a game.
Saving and loading might not even be a thing so each run is from the start causing the game to require a big chunk of your time every time you play.
Lastly, most early games were purely about skill rather than telling a story.

Nowadays the term hardcore is used willy nilly, but for me it refers to a game with several of the above characteristics:
-Skill based
-No hand holding
-Timesink to play properly
-Loss of items / life has consequence

The progress made in UI development and interactive storytelling might not preclude these two things from a hardcore game. Its more about the gameplay type and things surrounding the game. To me at least.

 

[Midkemma]

Again, a big thank you to all who have gave me interesting feedback.

 

[Tzone]

This vid claims that hardcore is basically open PvP and it got me thinking what other people think that the term "Hardcore" means to them along with the other descriptions given to MO.
Don't worry about the rest of the vid.
It is how he describes games like MO that peaked my curiosity.


So basically a simple questions to you all:

What does "Hardcore" mean to you when referencing games.

I'll start it off.
For me, Hardcore means dedicated and not hiding anything behind curtains.
I'd call myself a Hardcore Arsenal FC supporter. I read all the news, watch every game, seek out all the sh*t I can as I want to know about Arsenal FC. It is something I'll check multiple times a day.

So I'd say that Hardcore (when referencing and MMO/ MO2) includes the willingness to seek information outside of the game instance. I'd also say the passion to seek it out multiple times a day.

That is just me though.
What do you all think?
Is JSH right to box hardcore as open world PvP while ignoring the other elements?

I strongly agree with that hardcore means dedication either your are hardcore as in your are heavily dedicated. Or the game needs lots of dedication.

Even carebears can be hardcore PvErs based on how dedicated they are.

Hardcore gridning games might not require mechanical skills but instead skills in developing more efficient ways to grind better. But the key is that they require dedication in the farm.

Dedication can be in building mechanical skills for the game and getting better when the game has a high skill ceiling.

Full loot or progress losing games require more dedication or continued dedication so they tend to lean towards hardcore. The risk is not what makes them hardcore as the definition for hard core has historically always been linked to dedications and this is at least a 50+ year old definition.

I just dont put a lot of credit into Josh hayes. There is plenty of room for PvP MMOs, But never hurts to also have PvE attached.

 

[Stundorn]

hardcore = 1 human-hybrid char, not playing a meta, but on a RP basis and not exploiting by multiple accounts is hc ^^

EoB without a map was some kind of hardcore. You had to make a map yourself with a sheet of paper and a pencil while playing.
If we remove the compass and all the webtools about Mortal it could maybe become a hardcore game

 

[Hodo]

Just look through their video history dude literally calls every game the worst game ever. Part of the circle of 'game reviewers' who somehow love mmos but simultaneously hate everyone they play. Maybe they throw in some oh but I liked x game from 20 years ago. They just do it because people like to watch others crap on games

The titles of the videos "Worst MMO Ever" is just a series title. Its no more clickbait than Everything Wrong With, or Greatest Ever. It is just a title for a series, he (JSH) even makes fun of this in one of his videos about his own channel. Dont give to much thought into the "catchy" titles for the videos, they are just that. It is just a youtuber exploiting the horrible Youtube algorithm.