The Reason Why Combat Is Slower Than It Used To Be

Kavu

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For those of you who are new here, maybe you came during the stress test, or you're returning vets from MO1, or maybe you peaced out after being in the MO2 alpha earlier on... and you're just coming back. You might be saying to yourself "Geez why is combat so slow? Wasn't it faster in the previous game? Wasn't it even faster in earlier videos of THIS game?"

Yes. Yes it was... but the game is also an MMO that is running on a single server for the whole world... and the trouble with having a single server in London for the whole planet with a twitchy fast paced combat system is...


This is old footage from before the changes. Missed swings didn't slow you down, swings were much faster, and Ping was King. That ping advantage has been reduced heavily by the changes. If you aren't European and relatively close to the UK, you shouldn't be arguing for a return to this speed without a solid fix to the problem. The obvious solution you might think would be regional servers, but StarVault has made it clear that isn't going to happen. So think harder.​
 

Javelin

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Please stop with the argument that the reason combat is slow is to somehow compensate for having a singular server. You do not design combat mechanics around ping. No one does, name one other company that designs their "COMBAT" based on what kind of ping their players get. This is not 1994, it is 2020, people are not on dial up. It's an excuse, one that I haven't even seen any of the devs working on Mortal use themselves. So if THEY aren't using that as an excuse for shit combat than stop acting like it's the reason. It's slow because they made it slow maybe they think it feels better slow, we're telling them it doesn't.

If you have an argument for why you like it slow then I'll happily listen to that as long as the reason isn't "because tech limitations" other games using the same engine have accomplished fast combat with lots of players. Mortal can figure out how to do the same if they believe it's worth it to do so.
 
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Teknique

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Please stop with the argument that the reason combat is slow is to somehow compensate for having a singular server. You do not design combat mechanics around ping. No one does, name one other company that designs their "COMBAT" based on what kind of ping their players get. This is not 1994, it is 2020, people are not on dial up. It's an excuse, one that I haven't even seen any of the devs working on Mortal use themselves. So if THEY aren't using that as an excuse for shit combat than stop acting like it's the reason. It's slow because they made it slow maybe they think it feels better slow, we're telling them it doesn't.

If you have an argument for why you like it slow then I'll happily listen to that as long as the reason isn't "because tech limitations" other games using the same engine have accomplished fast combat with lots of players. Mortal can figure out how to do the same if they believe it's worth it to do so.
The real question is can it be sped up while maintaining synchronization, the movement speed number of 425 i'm quite certain is arbitrary and not the absolute max before things start to desync.

Badman for example is taking the wrong approach by saying the changes have actually made it MORE desynced that is clearly not the case.
 
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Kavu

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Please stop with the argument that the reason combat is slow is to somehow compensate for having a singular server. You do not design combat mechanics around ping. No one does, name one other company that designs their "COMBAT" based on what kind of ping their players get. This is not 1994, it is 2020, people are not on dial up. It's an excuse, one that I haven't even seen any of the devs working on Mortal use themselves. So if THEY aren't using that as an excuse for shit combat than stop acting like it's the reason. It's slow because they made it slow maybe they think it feels better slow, we're telling them it doesn't.

If you have an argument for why you like it slow then I'll happily listen to that as long as the reason isn't "because tech limitations" other games using the same engine have accomplished fast combat with lots of players. Mortal can figure out how to do the same if they believe it's worth it to do so.
Did you.. watch the video? thats 130-160 ping vs. 20-50 ping
Some people have like 10 ping. They were immortal.

Other games have regional servers so that this isn't a problem. So people in Brazil, Japan, and Germany aren't all simultaneously slugging it out in fast paced real time, because it'd be awful, and it WAS awful.
 

ThaBadMan

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Did you.. watch the video? thats 130-160 ping vs. 20-50 ping
Some people have like 10 ping. They were immortal.

Other games have regional servers so that this isn't a problem. So people in Brazil, Japan, and Germany aren't all simultaneously slugging it out in fast paced real time, because it'd be awful, and it WAS awful.
With slow combat you cant consistently beat UK players like Tyguy and Bonii. You cant simply because they dont adhere to the rules set by the game that the rest of us must follow. Their animations cut short, their parries can be done after you hit them, etcetc.
There is no fix to that with 2020 technology, why limit the skill of the rest of the population because your ego gets hurt by not being able to beat them. I am fine knowing I cant beat them 1v1 since this game is based around group fights.
But limiting combat to try to limit their advantage hurts anyone outisde UK more than it hurts them, with faster combat you can successfully beat them simply because it does not revolve around parries and that was with 360degree blocking.

Yes regional server would make it alot better but thats not in MOs design. So people in Brazil, Japan, Australia, etc will always be outside the norm and have issues like they still do.

With ping normalization SV made ping arbitrary for all within the 30-200 ping range. Yes lowest pingers still have advantage no shit sherlock, and high pingers still have disadvantage duh! Thats never gonna change with todays tech, only fix is turn based combat.
For gods sake one of the best players since we had fast paced combat is the NA player PatWins. Even with the fast combat everyone says makes ping king this guy was beating Tyguy on a regular basis.
I just dont buy the arguement if some NA players say its fine and others blame anything except their own lack of experience and skill.
 

Handsome Young Man

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Did you.. watch the video? thats 130-160 ping vs. 20-50 ping
Some people have like 10 ping. They were immortal.

Other games have regional servers so that this isn't a problem. So people in Brazil, Japan, and Germany aren't all simultaneously slugging it out in fast paced real time, because it'd be awful, and it WAS awful.
You so easily forgot to mention turn caps were basically removed from swing release and ping normalization, those two changes didn't slow combat down. Then reducing movement speed and adding a 4th part to the animations did.

So don't sit there and say the slow combat fixed everything. I can now parry everyone and not die if I really want to, how is that fun.
 

Handsome Young Man

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With slow combat you cant consistently beat UK players like Tyguy and Bonii. You cant simply because they dont adhere to the rules set by the game that the rest of us must follow. Their animations cut short, their parries can be done after you hit them, etcetc.
There is no fix to that with 2020 technology, why limit the skill of the rest of the population because your ego gets hurt by not being able to beat them. I am fine knowing I cant beat them 1v1 since this game is based around group fights.
But limiting combat to try to limit their advantage hurts anyone outisde UK more than it hurts them, with faster combat you can successfully beat them simply because it does not revolve around parries and that was with 360degree blocking.

Yes regional server would make it alot better but thats not in MOs design. So people in Brazil, Japan, Australia, etc will always be outside the norm and have issues like they still do.

With ping normalization SV made ping arbitrary for all within the 30-200 ping range. Yes lowest pingers still have advantage no shit sherlock, and high pingers still have disadvantage duh! Thats never gonna change with todays tech, only fix is turn based combat.
For gods sake one of the best players since we had fast paced combat is the NA player PatWins. Even with the fast combat everyone says makes ping king this guy was beating Tyguy on a regular basis.
I just dont buy the arguement if some NA players say its fine and others blame anything except their own lack of experience and skill.

See what's funny is in MO1 I could beat both of those players, and that isn't even trying to be bragadocious. That was with them having a ping advantage. And with MO1 combat not being slow.
 

bbihah

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See what's funny is in MO1 I could beat both of those players, and that isn't even trying to be bragadocious. That was with them having a ping advantage. And with MO1 combat not being slow.


In mo1 having the worse ping was an advantage, not the other way around. Since the game rewards being hyper aggressive as there is no way to defend against it. You can't block someone when there is no way of knowing if he is behind you or not. While you are staring at him.


Not universally true through the games life, but its almost always been the case.
 
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Handsome Young Man

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In mo1 having the worse ping was an advantage, not the other way around. Since the game rewards being hyper aggressive as there is no way to defend against it. You can't block someone when there is no way of knowing if he is behind you or not. While you are staring at him.


Not universally true through the games life, but its almost always been the case.

You are just so absolutely lost.

Ok, so you know that thing called prediction? Yeah? Where the game tries to predict ahead of time where and what someone was doing?

Good players knew how it worked from person to person based on where they were from or just fighting them for a little bit. People who were super good at defense usually had lower ping, and people who played hyper-aggressive usually had higher ping; and in the middle those players usually were a mix of both. But guess what? There are players that existed with low ping who are hyper-aggressive, players with high ping who are super defensive, and people in the middle range that were either or did both extremely well.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. This is why nine times out of ten I read these kinds of posts and sit in my chair a bit dumb founded because a lot of the times people trying to criticize the combat weren't good at it to begin with and never understood it.

MO is one game in specific where your ping really didn't matter, so long as you didn't have massive amounts of packet loss. Packet loss literally equated to near lag-switching which was a double edged sword and sometimes got you killed or helped you stay on someone even when you shouldn't have.
 

bbihah

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You are just so absolutely lost.

Ok, so you know that thing called prediction? Yeah? Where the game tries to predict ahead of time where and what someone was doing?

Good players knew how it worked from person to person based on where they were from or just fighting them for a little bit. People who were super good at defense usually had lower ping, and people who played hyper-aggressive usually had higher ping; and in the middle those players usually were a mix of both. But guess what? There are players that existed with low ping who are hyper-aggressive, players with high ping who are super defensive, and people in the middle range that were either or did both extremely well.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. This is why nine times out of ten I read these kinds of posts and sit in my chair a bit dumb founded because a lot of the times people trying to criticize the combat weren't good at it to begin with and never understood it.

MO is one game in specific where your ping really didn't matter, so long as you didn't have massive amounts of packet loss. Packet loss literally equated to near lag-switching which was a double edged sword and sometimes got you killed or helped you stay on someone even when you shouldn't have.
Huh, imagine ranting and then just completely contradicting what you said when you finish up your post.

I mean honestly what are you even talking about for 90% of your post?
You are the one who is truly lost.


You are agreeing with my post and then criticizing parts of it that aren't even there? Jesus fucking christ.


You are also realizing I was agreeing with you? I wasn't disputing your point.
Take a chill pill.
 

Kavu

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With slow combat you cant consistently beat UK players like Tyguy and Bonii. You cant simply because they dont adhere to the rules set by the game that the rest of us must follow. Their animations cut short, their parries can be done after you hit them, etcetc.
There is no fix to that with 2020 technology, why limit the skill of the rest of the population because your ego gets hurt by not being able to beat them. I am fine knowing I cant beat them 1v1 since this game is based around group fights.

1 on 1's are always gonna happen. People duel nonstop, it's in our nature to size each other up like that. Even now, when there's no glory in it, and there's no real opportunities to jump some dude by himself for loot, people are dueling constantly. The whole "Oh who cares about 1v1 game is about group fights" is a terrible argument. It's just demonstrably false. You might WANT it to be a bout just group fights, but that's not reality and it never has been.

But limiting combat to try to limit their advantage hurts anyone outisde UK more than it hurts them, with faster combat you can successfully beat them simply because it does not revolve around parries and that was with 360degree blocking.

It does though. With it sped up, their parries work, and an NA/SA player's don't. It's that simple. Their attacks come out in less than a second, which is less time than the ping. You can only parry them by guessing their swing before they even make the swing, which yeah, you can sometimes do, but if they aren't braindead, they can just start picking random directions and you will never be able to react to it. If you're real fast, which buddy I am, you'll even react to it, look like you block it, and just not. You'll get to watch it go through, because it already hit you on their screen a second ago.

Yes lowest pingers still have advantage no shit sherlock

You say this like I haven't had to prove this to the community new and old about a hundred times with many detractors still not believing it, but you should know better.

For gods sake one of the best players since we had fast paced combat is the NA player PatWins. Even with the fast combat everyone says makes ping king this guy was beating Tyguy on a regular basis.
I just dont buy the arguement if some NA players say its fine and others blame anything except their own lack of experience and skill.

PatWins was pretty good at guessing the direction and abusing the instant re-cocking of animations. That was his secret. The instant recocking of animations being nerfed is good for the game overall. That, and he dueled all day every day while working from home for months. So all you need to beat a British kid who is making any effort is.. be lucky, abuse anim bugs, and no life the game literally playing it at your job. Good strategy, bet that would pay off great with the general populace.
 

Teknique

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Pat couldn’t beat tyguy, by the end of it he could barely beat me.

He can beat me pretty easily now though that the parry fundamentals is the most important skill
 

Kavu

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You so easily forgot to mention turn caps were basically removed from swing release and ping normalization, those two changes didn't slow combat down. Then reducing movement speed and adding a 4th part to the animations did.

So don't sit there and say the slow combat fixed everything. I can now parry everyone and not die if I really want to, how is that fun.

1.) I never said it "fixed everything"

2.) Turn caps weren't a thing when this video was shot, and I never felt they slowed my combat down as much as they made it more awkward and inaccurate for all involved. With the time it took an attack to release, a target could move out of the way of the swing, and more hilariously, a friend could step into the swing, and you couldn't correct your aim in real time anymore. It felt bad and didn't fix anything. Slowing things down overall feels sort of bad, but fixes EU players being weird time traveling reality benders for anyone who isn't an EU.

3.) At the time of this video, when I was practiced, I could parry everyone from my continent or AUS consistently pretty much indefinitely. Now it's easier to parry everyone. Is that fun? Eh. Not really but there's other fixes for it besides making it so there's people I can't parry even if I parry them. Being told "Uh you just can't beat THIS group of people in a sword fight, so don't even try." Is really dumb, and way worse imo. Find another fix. Make combat actually more than right click left click repeatedly.
 
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ElPerro

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1.) I never said it "fixed everything"

2.) Turn caps weren't a thing when this video was shot, and I never felt they slowed my combat down as much as they made it more awkward and inaccurate for all involved. With the time it took an attack to release, a target could move out of the way of the swing, and more hilariously, a friend could step into the swing, and you couldn't correct your aim in real time anymore. It felt bad and didn't fix anything. Slowing things down overall feels sort of bad, but fixes EU players being weird time traveling reality benders for anyone who isn't an EU.

3.) At the time of this video, when I was practiced, I could parry everyone from my continent or AUS consistently pretty much indefinitely. Now it's easier to parry everyone. Is that fun? Eh. Not really but there's other fixes for it besides making it so there's people I can't parry even if I parry them. Being told "Uh you just can't beat THIS group of people in a sword fight, so don't even try." Is really dumb, and way worse imo. Find another fix. Make combat actually more than right click left click repeatedly.
Yeah it was actually doable to parry non eu players because they had a bigger swing delay. Without it, it would be the opposite like in MO1. And if Im not mistaken, all the ping normalization did was add this delay to EU players. So maybe there wasnt really a need to slow combat down? They should at least try to find the sweatspot of speed vs attacks going thru parrys instead of calling it a day and "special moves will fix errthing!!"

Look if it doesnt work and combat really needs to be this slow so that shit in that video doesnt happen, they can just slow it down again and look at other options. This is the time to fine tune combat before the game releases.
 
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Kavu

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Yeah it was actually doable to parry non eu players because they had a bigger swing delay. Without it, it would be the opposite like in MO1. And if Im not mistaken, all the ping normalization did was add this delay to EU players. So maybe there wasnt really a need to slow combat down? They should at least try to find the sweatspot of speed vs attacks going thru parrys instead of calling it a day and "special moves will fix errthing!!"

Look if it doesnt work and combat really needs to be this slow so that shit in that video doesnt happen, they can just slow it down again and look at other options. This is the time to fine tune combat before the game releases.

They definitely have to keep iterating. Especially with Flakestone and Jadeite in the mix now, the all-steel testing period might not have even been the best proving grounds and its worth giving everything a second look.
 
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ThaBadMan

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1 on 1's are always gonna happen. People duel nonstop, it's in our nature to size each other up like that. Even now, when there's no glory in it, and there's no real opportunities to jump some dude by himself for loot, people are dueling constantly. The whole "Oh who cares about 1v1 game is about group fights" is a terrible argument. It's just demonstrably false. You might WANT it to be a bout just group fights, but that's not reality and it never has been.



It does though. With it sped up, their parries work, and an NA/SA player's don't. It's that simple. Their attacks come out in less than a second, which is less time than the ping. You can only parry them by guessing their swing before they even make the swing, which yeah, you can sometimes do, but if they aren't braindead, they can just start picking random directions and you will never be able to react to it. If you're real fast, which buddy I am, you'll even react to it, look like you block it, and just not. You'll get to watch it go through, because it already hit you on their screen a second ago.



You say this like I haven't had to prove this to the community new and old about a hundred times with many detractors still not believing it, but you should know better.



PatWins was pretty good at guessing the direction and abusing the instant re-cocking of animations. That was his secret. The instant recocking of animations being nerfed is good for the game overall. That, and he dueled all day every day while working from home for months. So all you need to beat a British kid who is making any effort is.. be lucky, abuse anim bugs, and no life the game literally playing it at your job. Good strategy, bet that would pay off great with the general populace.
Very wrong there dude, Henrik himself says combat is about group combat and more importantly bigger fights, that is why small scale PvP and dueling are left wanted in both MO and MO2. So take that up with him.

Yes you have to block when their charge starts so you dont have to guess, but you have very limited time to waste looking.
You simply cant play the parry game with UK players back then or now, their attacks are faster no matter what and their parries are insanely fast.
My point is back then you could go agressive mode and beat them through moving better than them, with slow combat that is just not possible, you cant get out of reach against good players anymore which result in even more focus on parry whoring.

Still UK players, high ping players and bad computer/bad internet players are not the norm. They are a small percentage not to balance your world wide MMO around.
You balance your MMO around the norm, the average. Which is the standard gamer, got his equipment up to date, got good enough internet to not be bottlenecked. The normal gamer in MO I would say from experience is around the 50-150 ping range. Those above and below are the anomaly.

Yes I know few fanbois believe that, same as the fanbois believing the current state of combat and the game is good enough to go forward, which says alot.
Now change combat alittle and higher pings would gain the edge, only reason low pingers have the edge is the fact that parry whoring is fron and center in MO2.
Pat couldn’t beat tyguy, by the end of it he could barely beat me.

He can beat me pretty easily now though that the parry fundamentals is the most important skill
I beg to differ having seen atleast 100+ of their duels. Having fought them both numerous times I must give the edge to Pat since he use game knowledge to win while Ty heavily leans on his ping advantage. Now take away the ability to block, parry and counter hit in a fight and Ty loses all his edge, then he is just like any of us. Remember he was far from a top player in MO. But no way to know for sure who is better at this point, thats for sure.
Btw where you not the beyblade at that time ? Wasnt that your whole schtick to bypass your limitations ? Doesnt that kinda explain why you where able to beat him at the end ?

Kavu, read that last part again pls. Patwins got so good by training, gaining experience and using it to rise above the average players. Isnt that a good thing ?
I say we need alot more of that in combat in the game.
Now if luck was his weapon, he wouldnt be as consistent as he is.
Lets simply agree that PatWins is a superhuman with super human reflexes that makes him be able to react and bypass his ping that no other NA player can due to being bottlenecked so severly by their ping. He is the chosen one!
 

Teknique

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Btw where you not the beyblade at that time ? Wasnt that your whole schtick to bypass your limitations ? Doesnt that kinda explain why you where able to beat him at the end ?
If being able to aim at something not on your screen is a shtick then yeah that was it and still is.
 

ThaBadMan

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If being able to aim at something not on your screen is a shtick then yeah that was it and still is.
Lost me there tbh.
But yea beyblading was fun, though I dislike how it looks it had a place, does take skill to land good whirlwind hits.
 

Kavu

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If being able to aim at something not on your screen is a shtick then yeah that was it and still is.
Muscle memory (for the spin distance) and predictive positioning based on fight sense (for knowing where to release). I was pretty good at it too, but you liked it a lot more and focused on it. It was important in MO1 as well, but only for certain weapons, namely the polesword.