TC Guards and other NPC - We do really need less?

[Neftan]

Your first response is an instant yes, but why? Think about it.

Of course one argument is that the content should be run by the players, and indeed it should be, but without supplement the game would not be playable. Why are there NPC priests? Merchants? Bankers? Librarians? Why not have the players do it from the ground up? .. that is my point. NPC have their place and I think should exist to create a fuller game experience.

The next reason I imagine was how annoying, broken, and strong they could be. I know I absolutely hated walking by a fortress and suddenly being low life from mage guards no-scoping me from perches I couldn't even see. But what if? In MO2, things are stated to be better. As in everything. Including AI. That being said:

If AI is improved so that guards are functional, not broken and annoying, why not have them? They could slow down the enemy without being a powerful force, working similarly to bandits and not aggroing through walls and doing high damage. I think if done correctly they would provide a bit of a cushion of security for those who have open windows of downtime, without being a necessary factor in a TC fortress. They could function in shifts that the guild would be able to allot, so they would only be active for an 8 hour window of any given day, or something similar. Of course it would be neat if we could work on dealing with downtime in a different fashion as well.

What do you think? Consider what I have said above. I'd like to hear some feedback, and I know a proper discussion is able to be had.

 

[PatWins]

I would love to see a different way of dealing with downtime. I still feel pretty strongly that player created guards have no real place here. However, I do think npcs are highly important in towns and will help make the game world feel more alive. Even if they're just roaming npcs who say rude remarks to you.

 

[Rhias]

... Why are there NPC priests? Merchants? Bankers? Librarians? Why not have the players do it from the ground up? ...

Poor game design? Because no proper features are in place (yet?)?
Why are there NPC merchancts? Cause a lot of shit like e.g. bandages and arrows can't be crafted yet. But if theye were craftable, I would say remove those NPC's.
Same for Librarians. One idea here would be that player, with a certain skill level, can sacrifice some of their skills points, and create a book out of it. Or drop special books rarely on certain "rare" monsters.

The issue is, those features are not in place and probably are too much work to be in place in reasonable time.
But in general I would say remove those NPC's.

 

[PatWins]

Poor game design? Because no proper features are in place (yet?)?
Why are there NPC merchancts? Cause a lot of shit like e.g. bandages and arrows can't be crafted yet. But if theye were craftable, I would say remove those NPC's.
Same for Librarians. One idea here would be that player, with a certain skill level, can sacrifice some of their skills points, and create a book out of it. Or drop special books rarely on certain "rare" monsters.

The issue is, those features are not in place and probably are too much work to be in place in reasonable time.
But in general I would say remove those NPC's.

Hey, I think you're on to something about the books. Sounds really interesting. A player with rare knowledge may choose to share that knowledge for a cost. They may also choose to hold on to it without sharing to insure it doesn't become common knowledge thus reducing the price of the book all together.

 

[Neftan]

Poor game design? Because no proper features are in place (yet?)?
Why are there NPC merchancts? Cause a lot of shit like e.g. bandages and arrows can't be crafted yet. But if theye were craftable, I would say remove those NPC's.
Same for Librarians. One idea here would be that player, with a certain skill level, can sacrifice some of their skills points, and create a book out of it. Or drop special books rarely on certain "rare" monsters.

The issue is, those features are not in place and probably are too much work to be in place in reasonable time.
But in general I would say remove those NPC's.

Hey, I think you're on to something about the books. Sounds really interesting. A player with rare knowledge may choose to share that knowledge for a cost. They may also choose to hold on to it without sharing to insure it doesn't become common knowledge thus reducing the price of the book all together.

I feel the whole no NPC vibe, but it's an MMO - not a survival game. Games like Age Of Conan can get by with 90% of things done by the player. But in an MMO, there are so many different varieties of players that things must be at the very least accessible.

EDIT: As is, many merchants are needed because like said, there are no ways to make what the sell. However when these things do become craftable, i would like the NPC to remain and sell a cheap, weak variety. Still sell crappy bandages, for exampple, with player made being better. Accessibility is key.

I would love to see a different way of dealing with downtime. I still feel pretty strongly that player created guards have no real place here. However, I do think npcs are highly important in towns and will help make the game world feel more alive. Even if they're just roaming npcs who say rude remarks to you.

The underlined parts of my post are actually links to other posts with suggestions. EDIT: I see you already know that, my bad.

 

[Rhias]

EDIT: As is, many merchants are needed because like said, there are no ways to make what the sell. However when these things do become craftable, i would like the NPC to remain and sell a cheap, weak variety. Still sell crappy bandages, for exampple, with player made being better. Accessibility is key.

I agree that accessibility is important.

But instead of a NPC there could also be several different recipes. Some advanced ones, and some ceap weak one, that can be crafted with low/no skill, and without any preprocessing of resources needed.

E.g. just gather some basic vines or leaves using the hand, combine them somhow and you got "simple" bandages...

 

[Phen]

Personally I wouldnt say less NPC if anything a few more. Making each NPC very specialized in what they buy and sell. Giving players the minimum for items and qualities of items, through all vendors while giving a place for players to exchange crafted items too. Making no NPC buy everything, just very particular items according to which NPC you are talking with. This would at least allow you to be precise when searching for NPCs and give them more a foundation feeling instead of a general exchange.

For guards, TC in general. Hard to really say because it was soo broken. Eventhough having a timezone in which they come out and do the their job sounds great! Also bringing rotation for day and night time cycles. Similar to real life, using the day and night for community interactions with NPCs and players. Touched on this lightly in another post.
In turn I think guards should be very touchy AI that response according to guilds/towns "security" preferences. Light example would be blue guilds set guards to "protect" which only allows them to attack when blues are in danger near by, or "agressive" and attack all that's within their area if not guilded or deemed a "friendly" player. Thus is to try and give more control to the players when it comes to the guards themselves. Could also create a NPC guards / Players guard who follows similar to a pet but is a personal guard for your protection, at a cost of course.

Just some ideas though, I think lots can be done with TC guards ( Guards in general ), NPCs and player interactions.

What do you guys think of player made NPCs from villages, ect, being guards in their own rights? Like the stable breeder being a mounted mc, or reagent vendor being a mage?

 

[Amadman]

The way they had the player guards was pure trash. You walk buy a place and without warning you are getting spells from some unknown place inside walls. If they can not do better than that then they should not exist.

One idea would be to have the town AI only act when an actually player gives them a target. Kind of like a pet.

The idea would be that at least someone would have to be around to sound the alarm and make things happen. Like in real life, even at night you have to have someone on watch to avoid night time attacks. That person may not be able to wake up real players but they could at least get some ai to help them.

I also think that said AI should be an actual pre paid roster of guards. When one is killed there should be one less available.

 

[Teknique]

^ exactly as above. In theory what you're saying isn't that outrageous, but guards were so so bad in mo1 that we would not trust to have them at all.

 

[Amadman]

^ exactly as above. In theory what you're saying isn't that outrageous, but guards were so so bad in mo1 that we would not trust to have them at all.

Agreed. The guards would have to be greatly improved regardless.

 

[Xunila]

Same for Librarians. One idea here would be that player, with a certain skill level, can sacrifice some of their skills points, and create a book out of it. Or drop special books rarely on certain "rare" monsters.

The issue is, those features are not in place and probably are too much work to be in place in reasonable time.
But in general I would say remove those NPC's.

Since the Haven patch last year many skills changed from "learn by reading" to "learn by doing". Also the sk,ill gain per time should be increased. The number of skills to be learned by doing should be increased much more. Only very special "high end" skills should be learned from a book. Or better by talking to special NPCs like a trainer and remove books at all. Those trainers could be located in dungeons or hidden positions in the world and maybe take some special items to learn the skill.

 

[Amadman]

Since the Haven patch last year many skills changed from "learn by reading" to "learn by doing". Also the sk,ill gain per time should be increased. The number of skills to be learned by doing should be increased much more. Only very special "high end" skills should be learned from a book. Or better by talking to special NPCs like a trainer and remove books at all. Those trainers could be located in dungeons or hidden positions in the world and maybe take some special items to learn the skill.

One advantage to books vs trainers is that with a book players have something they can sell to other players. This also gives players a way to avoid having to do said dungeon or whatever.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

Neftan is right about one thing: we need more TC guards. TC guards bring diversity in this game, it forces PVPers who do nothing but kill players to kill some NPC mobs as well during sieges, pallisade raids, and when passing by. Currently, there is a 5:1 ratio of TC guards to players in MO1. If MO 2 is going to be bigger and better, this ratio needs to be at least 6:1, and that's including the fact that pop is going to be 50-100x more.

TC guards are also needed to stop bad mechanics like camping pallisades or rushing into a base chasing after a group. Bases are meant to be safe spaces and unless you're prepared, you shouldn't be able to enter unless invited. While guards shouldn't be OP, they should deter players from attacking on the whim like that. Even in sieges, guards won't make or break a siege but could buy defenders 15-30 minutes of time and help damage enemy weapons and armor by a good 20 percent. Guards are a great asset to MO2 if implemented right.

 

[Neftan]

Neftan is right about one thing: we need more TC guards. TC guards bring diversity in this game, it forces PVPers who do nothing but kill players to kill some NPC mobs as well during sieges, pallisade raids, and when passing by. Currently, there is a 5:1 ratio of TC guards to players in MO1. If MO 2 is going to be bigger and better, this ratio needs to be at least 6:1, and that's including the fact that pop is going to be 50-100x more.

TC guards are also needed to stop bad mechanics like camping pallisades or rushing into a base chasing after a group. Bases are meant to be safe spaces and unless you're prepared, you shouldn't be able to enter unless invited. While guards shouldn't be OP, they should deter players from attacking on the whim like that. Even in sieges, guards won't make or break a siege but could buy defenders 15-30 minutes of time and help damage enemy weapons and armor by a good 20 percent. Guards are a great asset to MO2 if implemented right.

I can't tell if the second half of your post is satire or not, but I do agree with it.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

I can't tell if the second half of your post is satire or not, but I do agree with it.

Why would it be satire? When have I ever been sarcastic or satirical about anything?

 

[Neftan]

I agree that accessibility is important.

But instead of a NPC there could also be several different recipes. Some advanced ones, and some ceap weak one, that can be crafted with low/no skill, and without any preprocessing of resources needed.

E.g. just gather some basic vines or leaves using the hand, combine them somhow and you got "simple" bandages...

Again, great for a pure suvival/sandbox game, but not an MMO. Include this, yes, but also allow the lower tier to be bought. Many players feel overwhelmed and do not know where/how/when/what to do when they have to do EVERY thing themselves.

Buying a handful of poor quality bandages solves the "want to act now" feeling and makes it easier to get started, but seeing that they are bad, also encourages figuring out and spending some time to craft.

 

[Neftan]

Why would it be satire? When have I ever been sarcastic or satirical about anything?

I appreciate your posts most of the time because the majority are merely there to get rises out of people. It is when you talk seriously that it is hard to decipher, which I can also appreciate. It can be challenging to respond when you're being serious, though, because I have trouble seeing the difference.

Clearly the first half was a jest, I just couldnt and can't tell about the second.

 

[Rhias]

Again, great for a pure suvival/sandbox game, but not an MMO. Include this, yes, but also allow the lower tier to be bought. Many players feel overwhelmed and do not know where/how/when/what to do when they have to do EVERY thing themselves.

Buying a handful of poor quality bandages solves the "want to act now" feeling and makes it easier to get started, but seeing that they are bad, also encourages figuring out and spending some time to craft.

Go play minecraft! Oh, wait, even the 10 year old Minecraft players need to craft. So be careful, you might be "overwhelmed".

 

[Solairerection]

I think NPC's should be kept to a minimum and TC Guards be kept at zero. It is up to the players' to defend their base, not AI.

In my opinion it's enough that NPC towns' cover the bare necessities such as a basic vendor (bandages, shortswords/pickaxes, regeants), banking, veredari, trade broker, inn/tavern-keeper and a functional guardforce (ie protects the town boundaries, nothing more). The services could be bought through contracts to apply for a TC-built town, except for guards which will be handled by players.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

I think NPC's should be kept to a minimum and TC Guards be kept at zero. It is up to the players' to defend their base, not AI.

In my opinion it's enough that NPC towns' cover the bare necessities such as a basic vendor (bandages, shortswords/pickaxes, regeants), banking, veredari, trade broker, inn/tavern-keeper and a functional guardforce (ie protects the town boundaries, nothing more). The services could be bought through contracts to apply for a TC-built town, except for guards which will be handled by players.

If NPC guards exist to protect and serve in towns, why can't the same apply to player made pallisades? How would siege defense work without some form of AI assistance?