Suggestion - Change swing release slow down to be less restrictive

[Valoran]

Currently we have a sensitivity slow down or "turn cap" while releasing a swing.

I find the amount of slow down to be far too restrictive, to the point where it heavily impacts the fluidity of the combat.

It makes aiming your attacks such as thrusts and overheads more of a gamble, due to the space invaders style of having to predict where your opponent will be a short time after releasing because you do not have the ability to adjust your aim mid swing to any meaningful extent.



The pros of this turn cap are obviously to reduce the possibility of actually spinning 180 degrees while releasing your swing, which I fully agree with the intention of mitigating.

However, the impact on overall combat smoothness is too great to justify the current implementation.


I propose that the swing release turn cap be either:

a) Tweaked to be far less aggressive, but still prevent people from turning vast distances while releasing a swing

b) Be removed in favour of the more universal turn cap we experienced a few patches ago in an early form.


A few patches ago the swing release turn cap was disabled, and we had one consistent sensitivity from the beginning of charging a swing, to the moment it is fully released. This was far more fluid in my testing and resulted in a much more enjoyable experience than what we have now.

The only issue with that implementation is that it did not work as intended, due to the amount of slow down being dependant on your individual sensitivity value and was not universal for every player.



Obviously these are not the only two solutions to this problem. What are your thoughts?

 

[Eldrath]

To me it feels fine in melee combat. I can zone out a riposte, charge my weapon, release and turn 180° to hit my opponent. I wonder if your issues with it are latency related. Maybe the swing delay for high latency players exagerates the swing limitation?

Having to predict your enemies movement is part of the skill ceiling. Taking away the release restriction will make twitchy last ms adjustments more possible and thus remove the need for proper footwork. Personally I prefer a reliance on footwork rather than flicks.

The current lock also helps with prediction. If you remove it you WILL have a lot of player hitting you in the face while having their back turned on you. Which looks shit and feels off. But I think many are so used to MO1 completely random prediction in fights that this won´t turn away any veterans.

Without the lock mages will have a harder time surviving. We will see how relevant that will be.

So I get what you are saying, but maybe the problem lies somewhere else. It might be worthwhilel to look into the swing delay for high ping players more.

Not a fan of the turncap as it was 2 patches ago, was way to sluggish. Actually way harsher than the current swing slowdown.

 

[Valoran]

To me it feels fine in melee combat. I can zone out a riposte, charge my weapon, release and turn 180° to hit my opponent. I wonder if your issues with it are latency related. Maybe the swing delay for high latency players exagerates the swing limitation?

Having to predict your enemies movement is part of the skill ceiling. Taking away the release restriction will make twitchy last ms adjustments more possible and thus remove the need for proper footwork. Personally I prefer a reliance on footwork rather than flicks.

The current lock also helps with prediction. If you remove it you WILL have a lot of player hitting you in the face while having their back turned on you. Which looks shit and feels off. But I think many are so used to MO1 completely random prediction in fights that this won´t turn away any veterans.

Without the lock mages will have a harder time surviving. We will see how relevant that will be.

So I get what you are saying, but maybe the problem lies somewhere else. It might be worthwhilel to look into the swing delay for high ping players more.

Not a fan of the turncap as it was 2 patches ago, was way to sluggish. Actually way harsher than the current swing slowdown.

First of all, lets be clear about what we're discussing here.

I am talking about the turn cap when actually releasing a swing, not when charging. The moment your weapon begins to actually swing and start dealing damage you will have a very strong turn cap applied that makes it impossible to look more than a few degrees in any direction throughout the duration of the swing.

Predicting enemy movement is almost by definition not skill, as it is a pure gamble. You can estimate that if someone is running forwards you can assume they will continue running forwards and aim your thrust accordingly, but there is nothing stopping them from changing direction at a moments notice causing you to miss your carefully aimed prediction. Thus preventing you from exerting your skill and correcting your aim mid swing.


Aiming and footwork are not mutually exclusive, and making it harder to aim attacks does not necessarily make footwork more important, they aren't that closely related.


The current turn cap is far and away overkill for maintaining body orientation during a swing. It can be much more lenient and still prevent wacky issues with people not looking at you when swinging.


How will mages have a harder time surviving? If you mean by way of people being able to accurately hit a mage who is attempting to sprint around you sporadically then of course, but is that really an issue?


The patch that I am referring to was not more restrictive that what we currently have as a swing release turn cap, it was several orders of magnitude more lenient, as there was no swing release turn cap at all.

The problem like I said, was that it was not working as intended, which resulted in a very bad implementation that was not universal for all players. Some who played on low sensitivity felt very sluggish, while others who played on higher sensitivity barely noticed it.


The swing release turn cap is unrelated to the ping based swing delay. The turn cap does not kick in until the ping based delay has already ended, thus it is universal for everyone and ping is not a variable.

 

[Eldrath]

First of all, lets be clear about what we're discussing here.

I am talking about the turn cap when actually releasing a swing, not when charging. The moment your weapon begins to actually swing and start dealing damage you will have a very strong turn cap applied that makes it impossible to look more than a few degrees in any direction throughout the duration of the swing.

Predicting enemy movement is almost by definition not skill, as it is a pure gamble. You can estimate that if someone is running forwards you can assume they will continue running forwards and aim your thrust accordingly, but there is nothing stopping them from changing direction at a moments notice causing you to miss your carefully aimed prediction. Thus preventing you from exerting your skill and correcting your aim mid swing.


Aiming and footwork are not mutually exclusive, and making it harder to aim attacks does not necessarily make footwork more important, they aren't that closely related.


The current turn cap is far and away overkill for maintaining body orientation during a swing. It can be much more lenient and still prevent wacky issues with people not looking at you when swinging.


How will mages have a harder time surviving? If you mean by way of people being able to accurately hit a mage who is attempting to sprint around you sporadically then of course, but is that really an issue?


The patch that I am referring to was not more restrictive that what we currently have as a swing release turn cap, it was several orders of magnitude more lenient, as there was no swing release turn cap at all.

The problem like I said, was that it was not working as intended, which resulted in a very bad implementation that was not universal for all players. Some who played on low sensitivity felt very sluggish, while others who played on higher sensitivity barely noticed it.


The swing release turn cap is unrelated to the ping based swing delay. The turn cap does not kick in until the ping based delay has already ended, thus it is universal for everyone and ping is not a variable.

It´s not impossible, again after I release my swing I can do a complete 180° rotation. I can also adjust my attack midswing to turn a miss into a hit. Again I think there is something wrong on your end.

It´s not a gamble - it´s game sense. Avoiding getting hit by movement is called dodging which is recognized as a skill in any competetive shooter (here I called it "footwork"). If I want to hit you with a rocket in Quake I will have to predict where you will be. You will move in a way to throw me off. That is skillful. In CS you predict where someone would stand and pre-shoot their heads. Again skillful. If you think about your swing arc as a projectile it´s actually exactly the same as in any shooter without hitscan.

Yes, making it easier to score a hit and easier to score a good hit will make it harder on someone who can not parry. Like a mage. That one should be fairly obvious. And don´t kid yourself removing the lock on swings will make it easier to hit.

I tested the "turn cap" on all possible sens and DPI settings. The way it was "intended" with drag and click was horrible and yes, avoidalbe with super high DPI and sens. Then again that screwed with your vertikal sens. So it was a mess.

Again it works fine for me. I can aim, I can rotate my swings 180°. For reference my sens is at 50% and I got 1300 DPI. Maybe try those.

 

[ThaBadMan]

For sure.

 

[VanValdenburg]

Tbh it was the very first thing i noticed when i started playing the game. It really bothered me.
I hate when games change my mouse sensitivity in general but there is more to it. It just straight up doesn't feel good the way MO2 does it.

Maybe it's the time window that is too small combined with the harshness of the mouse sens reduction.
Maybe it's because the sens reduction is abrupt without any easing at the beginning/end.

I just downloaded Mordhau again only to compare it with MO2 and they don't seem to have these annoying mouse sense reductions, or at least i was just not annoyed by it.
As time went by i was less annoyed by the MO2 mouse sens but it still doesn't feel totally great.

 

[Teknique]

I knew my attacks felt sluggish I didn't know they added something. Anything that messes with your sensitivity on an inconsistent basis is going to suck. Again if the problem is with animations THEN FIX THE ANIMATIONS. Stop messing with players. If someone's skill is aiming and raw adjustment the solution isn't to patch out and mute other styles of gameplay.

Remove it, nobody wants it. There are people who THINK they want it, thats it.

 

[Eldrath]

I knew my attacks felt sluggish I didn't know they added something. Anything that messes with your sensitivity on an inconsistent basis is going to suck. Again if the problem is with animations THEN FIX THE ANIMATIONS. Stop messing with players

I don´t think it is about the animations breaking. You simply can not show the kind of flick movement which then leads to people looking away scoring hits.

I mean it is not inconsistent. It´s the same every time you release a swing. Basically while your weapons is moving you can only rotate 180° to 240° degree. Without the lock that would only be bound the the regular turn cap, so above 360°.

Honestly I can live with both. I can flick AWP and rocket jump. It won´t change the skill ceiling one way or another. You are basically asking for the equivalent of hitscan. It is gonna look shit though and people are gonna complain. I mean alpha testers who should know better are complaining that their latency is making them get hit from further away. Imagine how fun it will be when the general public talks about high ping, high pakets loss players who hit them from 5 meters away while looking a wall.

Btw a neutral option is missing in the poll. Personally I think people will get used to it pretty quickly. Same as with any weapon behaviour change in the history of gaming.

Correction:
I can do a 360° spin after releasing my swing.

 

[Teknique]

I don´t think it is about the animations breaking. You simply can not show the kind of flick movement which then leads to people looking away scoring hits.

I mean it is not inconsistent. It´s the same every time you release a swing. Basically while your weapons is moving you can only rotate 180° to 240° degree. Without the lock that would only be bound the the regular turn cap, so above 360°.

Honestly I can live with both. I can flick AWP and rocket jump. It won´t change the skill ceiling one way or another. You are basically asking for the equivalent of hitscan. It is gonna look shit though and people are gonna complain. I mean alpha testers who should know better are complaining that their latency is making them get hit from further away. Imagine how fun it will be when the general public talks about high ping, high pakets loss players who hit them from 5 meters away while looking a wall.

Btw a neutral option is missing in the poll. Personally I think people will get used to it pretty quickly. Same as with any weapon behaviour change in the history of gaming.

I don't think its a stretch to say that someone will always be complaining about something.

SV said they learned from MO 1 and weren't going to lower the skill base and patch things all the time due to complaints and stick with the vision.

The vision was skill based, Making it so everyone aims the same is a betrayal of that. I don't see how nerfing all play styles but 1 doesn't change the skill ceiling.

Not sure what is complicated about what i'm saying, if someone is a good aimer, weaker parrier, nerfing aim fucks them. Since its already desyncy with range is anyone going to even notice? Also makes for really boring media when no one is pulling off super crazy hit scans. "but but I don't play like that so no one else should", recipe for a bad game.

This is a targetted nerf at people who are doing flicks, its not something that effects everyone equally, because if you don't do that or can't do that its not gonna effect you at all.

People act like you just spin your mouse and you have an aimbot all of a sudden. No it takes a huge amount of skill to land those.

Pointing at a select few players and saying SEE LOOK AT HOW EASY THAT IS, lemme just upload a video of me barely being able to aim, see my opinion is sick.

 

[Dracu]

yes this change fucks up daggers and spears in a really bad way.
Also stabs and overheads.

 

[Eldrath]

I don't think its a stretch to say that someone will always be complaining about something.

SV said they learned from MO 1 and weren't going to lower the skill base and patch things all the time due to complaints and stick with the vision.

The vision was skill based, Making it so everyone aims the same is a betrayal of that. I don't see how nerfing all play styles but 1 doesn't change the skill ceiling.

Not sure what is complicated about what i'm saying, if someone is a good aimer, weaker parrier, nerfing aim fucks them. Since its already desyncy with range is anyone going to even notice? Also makes for really boring media when no one is pulling off super crazy hit scans. "but but I don't play like that so no one else should", recipe for a bad game.

This is a targetted nerf at people who are doing flicks, its not something that effects everyone equally, because if you don't do that or can't do that its not gonna effect you at all.

People act like you just spin your mouse and you have an aimbot all of a sudden. No it takes a huge amount of skill to land those.

So, by that logic using rockets in Quake or Unreal tournament was not skillful, because it did not use a hitscan? Sorry but that is bogus.

You can and probably should have both in shooters. It´s funny that in this discussion hitscan hits are somehow seen as the epitome of skill, yet whenever magics is discussed they are cancer. The simple truth is that both have their uses.

If you truly want aiming skill to be paramount the weapon traces (swings) need to be much faster, thus less like a projectile and more like a hitscan. Otherwise it´s just wild drags to cover as much space with your swings and hit. I´m a big fan of aiming. The downside is that it will be even less possible to parry the swing instead of the charge, cause even EUs won´t see it fast enough. Pick your poison.

Lastly I think everyone was doing flicks unless they were completely new. So yes, it did affect everybody. I certainly felt like my chars arms were dipped in syrup. I adjusted my DPI and sens and moved on.

 

[Teknique]

So, by that logic using rockets in Quake or Unreal tournament was not skillful, because it did not use a hitscan? Sorry but that is bogus.

You can and probably should have both in shooters. It´s funny that in this discussion hitscan hits are somehow seen as the epitome of skill, yet whenever magics is discussed they are cancer. The simple truth is that both have their uses.

If you truly want aiming skill to be paramount the weapon traces (swings) need to be much faster, thus less like a projectile and more like a hitscan. Otherwise it´s just wild drags to cover as much space with your swings and hit. I´m a big fan of aiming. The downside is that it will be even less possible to parry the swing instead of the charge, cause even EUs won´t see it fast enough. Pick your poison.

Lastly I think everyone was doing flicks unless they were completely new. So yes, it did affect everybody. I certainly felt like my chars arms were dipped in syrup. I adjusted my DPI and sens and moved on.

Well I wasn’t making that argument but rockets are easy af to aim yes, just aim at the feet. Quake is a different beast entirely.
I’m not in the magic is noob camp it’s pretty hard for the average player to aim, actually in mo people couldn’t even find out how to bind more than 3-4 spells and would corrupt full hp targets, when they weren’t too busy fizzling all of their spells so most mages were bad even by wow standards.

I don’t agree that weapon traces are “just” anything. The pixel detection is less forgiving than mo1 and it still requires precision, and most mo media I see people aren’t doing anything flick wise that I’ve considered impressive.

Notables in that regard for me would be smasher , iconoclast , that 1 bloody frost dog video perro did and maybe A few daedrix vids with a Pole. I haven’t watched tys vid yet. If they start telling me about turn caps maybe I’ll listen or I’ll listen to anyone that posts a video a long with what they’re saying like I’ve been saying since day 1.
Also upping your dpi for a mechanic is basically conceding it’s a bad mechanic

 

[Eldrath]

just aim at the feet.

Also upping your dpi for a mechanic is basically conceding it’s a bad mechanic

It is. It does look better though IMO. I don´t really care about it one way or another. What I care about is keeping things straight. Changing stuff around because of self proclaimed pro players feelings has fucked up MO1. Would be nice if we could avoid it this time.

The best thing would probaly be to keep the vertikel bend thingy from last patch and go back to the original turn limit. Get rid of swing turn limiter and make swings faster again. Have the same turn limit on in and out of combat mode. That will create the smoothest experience. Not that anyone will notice after playing a few dozen hours anyway.

 

[Teknique]

It is. It does look better though IMO. I don´t really care about it one way or another. What I care about is keeping things straight. Changing stuff around because of self proclaimed pro players feelings has fucked up MO1. Would be nice if we could avoid it this time.

The best thing would probaly be to keep the vertikel bend thingy from last patch and go back to the original turn limit. Get rid of swing turn limiter and make swings faster again. Have the same turn limit on in and out of combat mode. That will create the smoothest experience. Not that anyone will notice after playing a few dozen hours anyway.

Somehow I don’t think this dude would be on here talking about turn caps and mouse decelerations if he played mortal, but I could be wrong.

Otherwise I think I agree just keep the animations sane.

I don’t think it was the players above messing things up in mo1 I think it was the same crowd as the turn cap crowd in mo2 fucking it up or similar in theme anyway. Imagine mo 1 with a turn cap , turning was the only thing in the game that was actually fun.

 

[MolagAmur]

I 100% think it serves hardly any purpose. I dueled for hours and hated it because it just made combat feel clunky and made it more difficult to follow through with your swing to stay on target. Then I decided to up my sensitivity (i play most games on pretty low sens). After I turned it up it made it much easier to deal with...but then I have to play the game with this annoying high sensitivity and I still don't have full control of where my swing goes after I release.

So yeah, basically I don't like it and there are ways around it like there are ways around most everything.

For reference my sens is at 50% and I got 1300 DPI. Maybe try those.

Thats an insanely high sensitivity man lmao. I don't want to be forced to play this game at such a high DPI just to have a fluid combat.

 

[Livingshade]

we undo all the swing nerfs and we go back to complaining about spin2win fighting later so there is no point to keeping to try balancing combat like that just LEARN HOW TO PLAY WITH IT

 

[MolagAmur]

I just want to clarify again that this is a bad mechanic because it can be basically avoided by upping your sensitivity higher and higher. Its similar to gamma hacking. Why have this mechanic in the game that is going to force people to use high DPI just to bypass the restrictions? Thats such a terrible thing to do.

 

[Eldrath]

I 100% think it serves hardly any purpose. I dueled for hours and hated it because it just made combat feel clunky and made it more difficult to follow through with your swing to stay on target. Then I decided to up my sensitivity (i play most games on pretty low sens). After I turned it up it made it much easier to deal with...but then I have to play the game with this annoying high sensitivity and I still don't have full control of where my swing goes after I release.

So yeah, basically I don't like it and there are ways around it like there are ways around most everything.


Thats an insanely high sensitivity man lmao. I don't want to be forced to play this game at such a high DPI just to have a fluid combat.

I just want to clarify again that this is a bad mechanic because it can be basically avoided by upping your sensitivity higher and higher. Its similar to gamma hacking. Why have this mechanic in the game that is going to force people to use high DPI just to bypass the restrictions? Thats such a terrible thing to do.

Well, it does serve a purpose. If that purpose is justified is another matter.

Well I´m used to having a higher DPI for melee games and a lower one for proper shooters. Once magic rolls in I´ll probably go down again.
The DPI only helps though. There is definite cap on how far you can turn after releasing a swing. I think it´s around 360° to 430°. It´s not really viable though.

 

[MolagAmur]

Well, it does serve a purpose. If that purpose is justified is another matter.

Well I´m used to having a higher DPI for melee games and a lower one for proper shooters. Once magic rolls in I´ll probably go down again.
The DPI only helps though. There is definite cap on how far you can turn after releasing a swing. I think it´s around 360° to 430°. It´s not really viable though.

I have to slap my mouse as far right as I can to barely do a 180. And I have a massive mousepad. Point is...the system is going to be inconsistent for everyone. Too many people have said the first thing they noticed was how bad the melee combat felt. And that is largely due to this cap. Imagine if it stayed the same until launch and all the new players felt this garbage...but people who know better have their DPI increased to minimize the restriction. Its just a lame fix imo. Lets do more brainstorming...

 

[Teknique]

I have to slap my mouse as far right as I can to barely do a 180. And I have a massive mousepad. Point is...the system is going to be inconsistent for everyone. Too many people have said the first thing they noticed was how bad the melee combat felt. And that is largely due to this cap. Imagine if it stayed the same until launch and all the new players felt this garbage...but people who know better have their DPI increased to minimize the restriction. Its just a lame fix imo. Lets do more brainstorming...

I'm getting tired of adapting to a new meta every week I must say. I almost don't even care anymore.

Can you show us a vid of your turn cap, because yours sounds weird.