Skill VS Zerg

Eldrath

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2020
1,047
991
113
the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
Because a 3 guy difference is low.

1v10, 5v25 and the like is never seen in MO. Except 1 vet in good gear vs total noobs in vendor gear.

Back before gear and numbers took over skill we in the top PvP guilds would have such fights with no losses several times a day every day. Little by little gear and simple numbers took more and more over and skill dwindled when devs decided to make the game easier because the masses cried because they died so often and versus lower numbers making the embarrassment all the worse.

Still going on about how you beat up a bunch of crafters and roleplayers? Have you ever considered that the skill ceiling was not higher back then, but that there were a lot of people who were horribly bad? Making reasonably competent players stand out much more?

Once most had quit and only the hardcore fans stayed the skill level became more even.
 

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,162
918
113
34
Norway
Still going on about how you beat up a bunch of crafters and roleplayers? Have you ever considered that the skill ceiling was not higher back then, but that there were a lot of people who were horribly bad? Making reasonably competent players stand out much more?

Once most had quit and only the hardcore fans stayed the skill level became more even.
You forget I actually fought the entire server every single day on our daily Myrland roams. We fought everything we came across, from RPers to other PvP guilds, empire guilds, zerg guilds. 80% of our fights was severly outnumbered, you dont hear talks of losing a 20v5 fight because its insanely embarrassing. Which is totally understandable.

Skill level never really got up per say, players quit and others took their place over and over, the game changed and theres no denying it, it got easier and easier.
Speed turned down, reaction times turned up, arcs widened, damage lowered, armor mitigation increased and healing on all fronts got increased.
Bandages used to heal for 10s and over time got 5x stronger, pots used to be max 40 but became 400 instead, lesser and greater heals both got more potent.

All of these things make a game alot easier and dwindles the skill ceiling drastically. Especially combined.
 

Phen

Active member
May 29, 2020
412
228
43
Earth
What is even your point with all this? What are you trying to prove? Its not a simple as X amount of numbers can beat Y, There isn't a magic number. Skill doesn't have a set value...its varies from person to person.

Also your comment about hiring NPC guards to add to your numbers as a small man group makes me want to vomit. You just don't get it do you...

Well if that makes you vomit might not wanna play... It's already been mentioned that guards can be hired in game.

My point is that, people are giving bad reasons for things. Like small groups ever had a chance against a large group... So there is no point of saying anything about zergs when it comes to combat. Otherwise we are just talking hypothetical and it could be the absolute opposite of what everyone is asking. It's still up to SV overall, it's up to us to give them suggestions and reasoning for our suggestions. As it is for others to just down it because they don't like change, it's normal to see disagreements, though this post proves that we all understand basics of gaming. So why not try and increase the skill ceiling instead of keeping it the same?

I try to see the benefits and features of all suggestions. While if everyone gets the same features, it doesn't matter how good the feature is if everyone gets it. It matters on how it affects the overall game play. Using the dumb bandages as an example, making them too good means they need to reduce the overall healing. Though leaving it as simple as bandages that do some HoT or channel healing doesn't change much when it comes to people over running you. So these bandages are really just a filler because everyone is whining about how long it takes to get back into the fight.

Overall i see mostly the skilled fighters asking for bandages because they want to get back into fights. ttk goes way up once we get bandages and it will make new players fall off the combat wagon really quick in team fights. They just don't have the understanding yet like the vets do. I still believe that the other combat types should be out before hand. I feel like mages will heal just fine for fights. Plus it gives more value to the Alchemist and mages.
 

Kelzyr

Active member
Sep 22, 2020
270
194
43
Overall i see mostly the skilled fighters asking for bandages because they want to get back into fights. ttk goes way up once we get bandages and it will make new players fall off the combat wagon really quick in team fights. They just don't have the understanding yet like the vets do. I still believe that the other combat types should be out before hand. I feel like mages will heal just fine for fights. Plus it gives more value to the Alchemist and mages.

I'd love to see ecumenical spells in the game ASAP, I need me some magic again!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phen

MolagAmur

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2020
798
979
93
Well if that makes you vomit might not wanna play... It's already been mentioned that guards can be hired in game.

My point is that, people are giving bad reasons for things. Like small groups ever had a chance against a large group... So there is no point of saying anything about zergs when it comes to combat. Otherwise we are just talking hypothetical and it could be the absolute opposite of what everyone is asking. It's still up to SV overall, it's up to us to give them suggestions and reasoning for our suggestions. As it is for others to just down it because they don't like change, it's normal to see disagreements, though this post proves that we all understand basics of gaming. So why not try and increase the skill ceiling instead of keeping it the same?

I try to see the benefits and features of all suggestions. While if everyone gets the same features, it doesn't matter how good the feature is if everyone gets it. It matters on how it affects the overall game play. Using the dumb bandages as an example, making them too good means they need to reduce the overall healing. Though leaving it as simple as bandages that do some HoT or channel healing doesn't change much when it comes to people over running you. So these bandages are really just a filler because everyone is whining about how long it takes to get back into the fight.

Overall i see mostly the skilled fighters asking for bandages because they want to get back into fights. ttk goes way up once we get bandages and it will make new players fall off the combat wagon really quick in team fights. They just don't have the understanding yet like the vets do. I still believe that the other combat types should be out before hand. I feel like mages will heal just fine for fights. Plus it gives more value to the Alchemist and mages.
Ok
 

Gankez

New member
Oct 4, 2020
5
5
3
i'd be happy to take 3:1 odds with good players on my side. generally speaking people suck dick at video games and if you gotta good group with you, you'll roll most people np... zerglings hit each other more than anyone else so they really arnt a big threat ;p. imo as long as you have a fast ttk and good terrain, killing zergs is easy enough.. if nothing else its a lot of fun. i didnt play mo when they ramped up healing and shit but by the sound of it badman is 100% right.. uping the healin raises the ttk and makes it easier to get zerged down... just my 2c
 

Phen

Active member
May 29, 2020
412
228
43
Earth
i'd be happy to take 3:1 odds with good players on my side. generally speaking people suck dick at video games and if you gotta good group with you, you'll roll most people np... zerglings hit each other more than anyone else ;p. imo as long as you have a fast ttk and good terrain.. killing zergs is ez.. i didnt play mo when they ramped up healing and shit but by the sound of it badman is 100% right.. uping the healin raises the ttk and makes it easier to get zerged down... just my 2c

If you wanna test this out, join us doing a team fight and I will be happy to set up a 3v9 or 2v6. Though i will say, anyone whos been on the back peddle of a 3v1 has lost most of the time. There's a slight stam drain when you get hit, and if you don't manage you stam like a god then you will have a very hard time.

I agree though, in a larger scale of 10v30 with proper healers and great players on the 10 team. They could win if the communication is dead on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gankez

Gankez

New member
Oct 4, 2020
5
5
3
If you wanna test this out, join us doing a team fight and I will be happy to set up a 3v9 or 2v6. Though i will say, anyone whos been on the back peddle of a 3v1 has lost most of the time. There's a slight stam drain when you get hit, and if you don't manage you stam like a god then you will have a very hard time.

I agree though, in a larger scale of 10v30 with proper healers and great players on the 10 team. They could win if the communication is dead on.

id say 1v3 is a lot harder than say 3v9.. having people that you can play off of makes a huge difference.. as far as testing it.. i dont have mo2.. dunno if ill even play it tbh.. and i wouldnt have a group to fight u with anyway ;p... its been awhile xD
 

Phen

Active member
May 29, 2020
412
228
43
Earth
id say 1v3 is a lot harder than say 3v9.. having people that you can play off of makes a huge difference.. as far as testing it.. i dont have mo2.. dunno if ill even play it tbh.. and i wouldnt have a group to fight u with anyway ;p... its been awhile xD

Dont need one during alpha, Lots of us get together mon, wens, fri, and sat group fighting. We all jump on discord and make it happen. At times we have had like 20+ people in these fights. I suggest trying to give it a shot if they have any keys left.
 

Turbizzler

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
329
460
63
Fabernum
" Experience true real-time combat where you decide every move your character makes and where your personal skill really matters. "

Hopefully this time around, this isn't a joke.
 

Handsome Young Man

Well-known member
Jun 13, 2020
656
490
93
MO1 used to be skill would outclass all. Gear, numbers, etc. Sure there are some odds that were unbeatable, but in the waning years of MO1 we came to see the more people you had the easier a 'win' would be achieved. This is because new playstyles opened up that allowed for more automated and straight forward game play.

People could be mounted, and basically never die as long as they played smart.. playing smart doesn't mean it was hard. So don't get the two confused, mounted play was very easy; it was mostly just PvE a lot and dump gold into it to compensate for skill.

People could invest into magic like Elementalism and Necromancy for large battle-like spells. Necromancy pets had shades spitting at people for 60+ through their armor, death knights quite literally could survive 6-8 people beating on it for a minute plus, even the bugs from Sard. offered AoE attacks and ranged spits that could 4 shot players.

People could make foot fighters that invested into something super straight forward like spears or daggers. Spears were incredibly fast and very forgiving if you were parried in a group fight, as you could just keep spamming; or switch targets. Daggers could weakspot and just ignore armor entirely.

People could build pallisades basically anywhere and station inside of them NPC guards which would zap other players with heat seeking missiles through the walls.

Before, if your group was caught out somewhere; you'd have to retreat back to where you could either be safe or at a better strategic advantage. For anti-pk groups that usually meant running back to a blue town which made the game more dangerous for them, same for pk groups that weren't in their preferred terrains / regions.

But even in the past it didn't matter if a group of 3 from a PK group showed up to Meduli and a group of 7 anti-pk players came out, the 3 could still win. In MO1's current state? You'd probably have three pets put on you, guards rushing out, and a mounted slapping your head for 60 with no ability to do anything.

What if a group of 7 anti-pk players showed up to Kranesh and 3 pk players were to engage them? You could still have pets put on you, because they quite literally just laser-sight through buildings and will even disappear going through objects.

Point being, the game has given players way too many methods of competing via combat that I feel automate and take away the players input.

If you argue gold = damage, you're the problem. Just because you dump 1000 gold into a characters 'set', doesn't mean you should just absolutely demolish everyone. Skill should always outclass gold. Does that mean a guy who is naked with a worn short sword is going to beat an ogh foot fighter with a DK? Probably not. His best chance of surviving is running. But there were just SOME THINGS added to MO1 that really just gave players WAY too much of an advantage for very little input during the actual fight.

Skill should always beat zergs, skill should always beat gear.. Under the right circumstances as these situations have so many variables it is impossible to give a straight answer.
 

Phen

Active member
May 29, 2020
412
228
43
Earth
MO1 used to be skill would outclass all. Gear, numbers, etc. Sure there are some odds that were unbeatable, but in the waning years of MO1 we came to see the more people you had the easier a 'win' would be achieved. This is because new playstyles opened up that allowed for more automated and straight forward game play.

People could be mounted, and basically never die as long as they played smart.. playing smart doesn't mean it was hard. So don't get the two confused, mounted play was very easy; it was mostly just PvE a lot and dump gold into it to compensate for skill.

People could invest into magic like Elementalism and Necromancy for large battle-like spells. Necromancy pets had shades spitting at people for 60+ through their armor, death knights quite literally could survive 6-8 people beating on it for a minute plus, even the bugs from Sard. offered AoE attacks and ranged spits that could 4 shot players.

People could make foot fighters that invested into something super straight forward like spears or daggers. Spears were incredibly fast and very forgiving if you were parried in a group fight, as you could just keep spamming; or switch targets. Daggers could weakspot and just ignore armor entirely.

People could build pallisades basically anywhere and station inside of them NPC guards which would zap other players with heat seeking missiles through the walls.

Before, if your group was caught out somewhere; you'd have to retreat back to where you could either be safe or at a better strategic advantage. For anti-pk groups that usually meant running back to a blue town which made the game more dangerous for them, same for pk groups that weren't in their preferred terrains / regions.

But even in the past it didn't matter if a group of 3 from a PK group showed up to Meduli and a group of 7 anti-pk players came out, the 3 could still win. In MO1's current state? You'd probably have three pets put on you, guards rushing out, and a mounted slapping your head for 60 with no ability to do anything.

What if a group of 7 anti-pk players showed up to Kranesh and 3 pk players were to engage them? You could still have pets put on you, because they quite literally just laser-sight through buildings and will even disappear going through objects.

Point being, the game has given players way too many methods of competing via combat that I feel automate and take away the players input.

If you argue gold = damage, you're the problem. Just because you dump 1000 gold into a characters 'set', doesn't mean you should just absolutely demolish everyone. Skill should always outclass gold. Does that mean a guy who is naked with a worn short sword is going to beat an ogh foot fighter with a DK? Probably not. His best chance of surviving is running. But there were just SOME THINGS added to MO1 that really just gave players WAY too much of an advantage for very little input during the actual fight.

Skill should always beat zergs, skill should always beat gear.. Under the right circumstances as these situations have so many variables it is impossible to give a straight answer.


I completely agree to this. I was stating this for a long time. Skill should win over zerg. So far in MO2 I dont see it possible to 1vX unlike in MO1 were a hybrid could easily 1vX all day long. Most of us did it in Tindrem Graveyard for while. xD
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2020
1,047
991
113
the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
I completely agree to this. I was stating this for a long time. Skill should win over zerg. So far in MO2 I dont see it possible to 1vX unlike in MO1 were a hybrid could easily 1vX all day long. Most of us did it in Tindrem Graveyard for while. xD

Well that is a bit of apples and oranges though. Most of the famous examples from MO1 that i remeber you had a lot of healing and kiting involved and enemies that were shit-tier like Meduli/Bakti militia. In the current alpha the difference in skill is not as big, people are not training for this as much and you only have limited healing and kiting abilities.

Also the time to kill is hopefully inflated because we are using the steel equivalent of armor. It is too high right now. The only way to win a 3 v 1 is to make it a 2 v 1 and 1 v 1 as quickly as possible.
 

MolagAmur

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2020
798
979
93
Aside from potions, healing was fine in MO1 and it allowed to fight outnumbered. For some reason a lot of people think healing was the issue that made it easier for zergs, when in reality it was just simply higher TTK with metal armors and potions.

So yes. Potions were OP. We all know that. Bandages and magic were perfectly fine imo. Current MO2 feels like fighting outnumbered is going to be very difficult...but like Eldrath said, its because we are using steel equivalent armors and such. Also having everyone run the same speed is lame.

I get that alchemy is a big feature in the game...but back when we had big pots that healed for 40 and small pots that healed for (15-20?) things felt much better. It was just kinda your "Oh shit button" that allowed you to take another hit. Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing all potions be HoT in MO2.
 

Phen

Active member
May 29, 2020
412
228
43
Earth
Well that is a bit of apples and oranges though. Most of the famous examples from MO1 that i remeber you had a lot of healing and kiting involved and enemies that were shit-tier like Meduli/Bakti militia. In the current alpha the difference in skill is not as big, people are not training for this as much and you only have limited healing and kiting abilities.

Also the time to kill is hopefully inflated because we are using the steel equivalent of armor. It is too high right now. The only way to win a 3 v 1 is to make it a 2 v 1 and 1 v 1 as quickly as possible.

But i like my apples and my oranges... Hard to do a full game to game comparison without healing and others much needed parts of the game.
 

Fortuona

Member
Jun 17, 2020
46
51
18
NC USA
When I would be mining and suddenly killed by 5 people in a few seconds, I didn't call it a zerg... I called it bad luck!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Phen