Skill VS Zerg

[Phen]

Mhm.... seems to be that most people understand what a zerg is. What's the point of complaining about them if its bound to happen 90% of the time?

The reason i posted this is because there is lots of mixed feedback. Many people don't want to deal with zerg attacks, but literally it's part of the game. I haven't seen a mechanic in this game that give a 1vX any advantage, it leans more on having good team work over numbers.

This proof lies in the team fight testing we have done. The better end fighters mop the floor with the newer fighters. We have had many uneven matches to show that skill over comes the numbers when they aren't ridiculously outnumbered. 4v7 the skilled 4 was winning just about every time. Plus we haven't added in magic or archery.

Would love to test this skill vs zerg in more team fights. I feel like 5 skilled could easily beat 10 unknowns. Just don't give the skilled players bandages and we will see a mix of wins and losses overall. Once skilled players have free heals they will outlast most of those unknown skilled players because of the experience from MO1 fights that many other won't have in MO2.

I'm a firm believer in practice makes better, which is a skilled players trying to better themselves. Zergs seem to have lots of different players with very little team practice due to lack of similar goals. Doesn't mean zerg guilds cant become skilled fighting guilds. I just don't see groups of zergs out matching good combatants that practice a lot.

Does no one miss those 2v5 days? You know, when you would take on anyone and everyone because you and your teammate worked well together. Now it's more reasonable with being over ran by a 2v5 in MO2 just because of how the changes are in the combat. Still don't see the validation that a zerg group will out match a skilled group.

 

[Eldrath]

@Phen
You have to keep in mind that most discussion on here are purely hypothetical. What we have currently in alpha will be vastly different to the persistent state. Magic will be a major game changer, same as healing above resting. For that reason these topics are hotly debated, because those will actually influence how possible it will be to overcome numbers with teamwork. The current state does not predict anything in that regard.

Lots of the more fanciful ideas (like yours towards bandages) while sounding good will actually make it less possible to outplay a bigger group. But then it also becomes more complicated since with a very low time-to-kill it would turn around. But the ttk is depended on crafting and resources.

I don´t complain about alliance forming, but I do complain about mechanics that make it barely possible to fight them. Most of the lastest TC versions did exactly that and it wasn´t good for the game. A game like Mortal does not run on huge alliances alone. Encouraging small group play is the way to go. Hopefully it will happen this time around.

 

[Phen]

@Phen
You have to keep in mind that most discussion on here are purely hypothetical. What we have currently in alpha will be vastly different to the persistent state. Magic will be a major game changer, same as healing above resting. For that reason these topics are hotly debated, because those will actually influence how possible it will be to overcome numbers with teamwork. The current state does not predict anything in that regard.

Lots of the more fanciful ideas (like yours towards bandages) while sounding good will actually make it less possible to outplay a bigger group. But then it also becomes more complicated since with a very low time-to-kill it would turn around. But the ttk is depended on crafting and resources.

I don´t complain about alliance forming, but I do complain about mechanics that make it barely possible to fight them. Most of the lastest TC versions did exactly that and it wasn´t good for the game. A game like Mortal does not run on huge alliances alone. Encouraging small group play is the way to go. Hopefully it will happen this time around.

Completely understand what you are saying here. When we are talking zerg vs skill, I still dont see 3 players more on one team being a defining factor in a match. As I asked above, is there a line were zerg groups are better than high number skilled group?

With a mechanic like hireable guards, are we now going to see them used in such a way that creates numbers? Then it just becomes a money, crafting, resource over who has more numbers. I for see many vets like myself wanting to start small but with only 5 people it won't ever last, with guilds roaming and destroying things for the fun of it. It shows the zergs would use the off times to create issues for you anyways. Just like MO1, hypothetically these 5 player all hire 5 guards. Fully supported for 2 battles with steel gear and a few healing items. Would these 5 players and 25 guards win vs the zerg raid of 12 players?

These are questions we wont know the answers of until we get to mess with them. That's why i suggest outlandish things, it's not for any other reason then this game reflects a lot on team work. The better people work together, the more they can accomplish. I agree with you 100% that the biggest difference will be the items used during fights. Though i don't see were having numbers will do a lot when it comes to skilled players buying loads of guards when needed. Then it all goes back to the items used in the fight right?

 

[Kelzyr]

I think something is being overlooked here that some people pointed out previously. I don't think many people care that there will be zerg guilds, also I don't think it matters what number of people defines a zerg.

Lets set aside the people that shout 'ZERG!' when they lose a relatively fair fight. I think what most people are concerned about are the addition of mechanics that can only feasibly be used when you have ample numbers to execute said mechanic. For example, anything that makes you stand still to perform the action over a long (I would argue anything more than 3 seconds is too long, but what do I know). If you have to stand still it becomes unfeasible for a small group to execute this action because if you sit still you're dead where as the larger group has the numbers to allow a few people to sit still and perform this long action with little to no risk.

Any mechanic that 'could' help a small group will most certainly be used by a large group as well. Adding mercenary NPCs can just as easily be used by a large group as a small group which really ends up with us doing PvE instead of PvP.

 

[Phen]

I think something is being overlooked here that some people pointed out previously. I don't think many people care that there will be zerg guilds, also I don't think it matters what number of people defines a zerg.

Lets set aside the people that shout 'ZERG!' when they lose a relatively fair fight. I think what most people are concerned about are the addition of mechanics that can only feasibly be used when you have ample numbers to execute said mechanic. For example, anything that makes you stand still to perform the action over a long (I would argue anything more than 3 seconds is too long, but what do I know). If you have to stand still it becomes unfeasible for a small group to execute this action because if you sit still you're dead where as the larger group has the numbers to allow a few people to sit still and perform this long action with little to no risk.

Any mechanic that 'could' help a small group will most certainly be used by a large group as well. Adding mercenary NPCs can just as easily be used by a large group as a small group which really ends up with us doing PvE instead of PvP.

So what's the problem with adding mechanics that benefit everyone as a whole? Like bandages...

 

[Kelzyr]

So what's the problem with adding mechanics that benefit everyone as a whole? Like bandages...

It depends on how they are implemented. Again if you have to sit still for anything more than 3 seconds you're going to give a much larger advantage to a zerg because they have the numbers to have a few people sit still while the smaller group does not.

Adding mechanics isn't the issue, its how they are added that is the issue.

In most cases for any sort of competitive PvP more simplicity is better.

 

[Rhias]

Completely understand what you are saying here. When we are talking zerg vs skill, I still dont see 3 players more on one team being a defining factor in a match. As I asked above, is there a line were zerg groups are better than high number skilled group?

With a mechanic like hireable guards, are we now going to see them used in such a way that creates numbers? Then it just becomes a money, crafting, resource over who has more numbers. I for see many vets like myself wanting to start small but with only 5 people it won't ever last, with guilds roaming and destroying things for the fun of it. It shows the zergs would use the off times to create issues for you anyways. Just like MO1, hypothetically these 5 player all hire 5 guards. Fully supported for 2 battles with steel gear and a few healing items. Would these 5 players and 25 guards win vs the zerg raid of 12 players?

These are questions we wont know the answers of until we get to mess with them. That's why i suggest outlandish things, it's not for any other reason then this game reflects a lot on team work. The better people work together, the more they can accomplish. I agree with you 100% that the biggest difference will be the items used during fights. Though i don't see were having numbers will do a lot when it comes to skilled players buying loads of guards when needed. Then it all goes back to the items used in the fight right?

When it comes to gear-crutch vs number-crutch vs guard-crutch I'm out of here.
Probably I start playing games where NPCs, numbers and gear should matter, rather than the individuals, like Stronghold...

 

[Phen]

It depends on how they are implemented. Again if you have to sit still for anything more than 3 seconds you're going to give a much larger advantage to a zerg because they have the numbers to have a few people sit still while the smaller group does not.

Adding mechanics isn't the issue, its how they are added that is the issue.

In most cases for any sort of competitive PvP more simplicity is better.

I feel this highly depends on where the battle is. Fighting around your home should give you an advantage just because you got a hide out that keeps you safe. Ofc only a skilled person would use this advantage in a fight.

I love how you say most cases. This game is far from most cases, has more depth than any other game i've played. I dont see PvP as competitive as others, just because the goal is to enjoy yourself within the game. If PvP is your thing then you have something here, but its not the defining matter of the game. If you treat people badly all the time then you would have a larger group of people looking to cause you issues. It's still a game on relationships, team work and knowledge.

I've just seen so many guilds that once were zerg fall to nothing and rebuild. Overall i don't see simple being better in this game. They have thrived on this complex world of mystery, making everyone free to do as they like. It is unfair to ask for more when the game offers such vast options as is?

 

[Phen]

When it comes to gear-crutch vs number-crutch vs guard-crutch I'm out of here.
Probably I start playing games where NPCs, numbers and gear should matter, rather than the individuals, like Stronghold...

I think the guards will matter a lot, we have no idea how good they will be or bad... I feel this game is a gamers game, not needing to be great at any one thing to enjoy what SV is offering with MO. No you won't get the fast pace shooter feelings, but it does have its pleasures and it's also why everyone has kept at it from my research on asking others.

Lots play because of the amount of stuff that can be done, not strictly for the PvP ( some do though). Truly, I believe MO can offer more and not ruin the game as they have like in the past with other forced implementations. They have time to test things out right now and it's the right time to see what works and what doesn't. We just gotta give them time to give us these mechanics before we can give solid feedback.

 

[Eldrath]

I mean guards are only a different version of having a pet. To have any idea on how to balance them we need to know how capable the AI will be.

I don´t mind guards if I can permanantly kill them and loot their corpse. It can give a small group the possibility to raid and pillage. Logical limits should apply. You should not be able to "summon" guars out of thin air. You have to "grow" them. So if you are fighting a war against someone you will have to baby sit your guards as much as they will help you. It shouldn´t be a no brainer to even have guards.

I think a multitude of playstyle should be possible and using NPCs to a degree should be possible. I mean that is why we have the beastmastery skills. Variety is important since people want to be able to express their playstyle in a sandbox. The fact that it is a roleplaying game also puts limits on how gears/skill etc. scale.

It´s more important to have counterplay working than just taking away things.

 

[Kelzyr]

I've just seen so many guilds that once were zerg fall to nothing and rebuild. Overall i don't see simple being better in this game. They have thrived on this complex world of mystery, making everyone free to do as they like. It is unfair to ask for more when the game offers such vast options as is?

Simple mechanics in PvP is better imo. I'm not saying the game needs to be simple, but the mechanics around fighting don't need to be overly complicated. Fighting another person is more than enough complexity, feel free to disagree but I'm not going to budge as much as you aren't.

 

[Phen]

Simple mechanics in PvP is better

Couldn't agree more. I personally don't think bandages are a combat mechanic. They help in combat, though when talking about PvP mechanics it isn't one. It's a healing mechanic overall nothing more and nothing less. Though does healing determine a group fight? Ofc it does, that's why we have mages.

Wish i could speak more on mages and how the healing effects team fights but as of right now in MO2 we can't judge something thats not there.
I think adding archery and magic before bandages would be a good idea. Both of which have strong combat values that may determine needing a variation of healing instead of a simple bandage.

Most of the time games use things like bandages to balance the ability to escape and with stand longer fights with use of strategy. I can see combat changing a lot once archery and magic comes in. Bandages just support the now issue of not healing quick enough. As many would say zerg team will always beat a skilled team, though skilled players are asking for these bandages because they want more ttk. Which I'm lead to believe that less time healing = more zerglings dying. Then becomes a game of who can sustain longer, which we all know vet combatants of MO kite like a scared rat. They will create sustaining scenarios to benefit themselves as skilled players would do. Leaving any type of healing to help them tremendously, though we don't see the affects of every aspect of combat, just the melee portion.

 

[ThaBadMan]

For all Jon Snows out there.
A zerg is a group who use their numbers to fight for them. A zerg group is a group of lesser skilled(poorly trained)soldiers.

In Mortal Online and Mortal Online 2 so far numbers/equipment has more say than training or skilled individuals.

After 2-3 weeks tops of constant daily training and your handicapped by the mechanics and systems in the game to further enhance your skills as a player. The games are inherently too slow for the skill ceiling to increase any higher.

 

[Phen]

For all Jon Snows out there.
A zerg is a group who use their numbers to fight for them. A zerg group is a group of lesser skilled(poorly trained)soldiers.

In Mortal Online and Mortal Online 2 so far numbers/equipment has more say than training or skilled individuals.

After 2-3 weeks tops of constant daily training and your handicapped by the mechanics and systems in the game to further enhance your skills as a player. The games are inherently too slow for the skill ceiling to increase any higher.

Well i guess i cant say much other then why are people losing 4v7 matches.... the 7 are losing btw...

Though i highly agree the skill ceiling is very low in MO compared to other combat games.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Well i guess i cant say much other then why are people losing 4v7 matches.... the 7 are losing btw...

Though i highly agree the skill ceiling is very low in MO compared to other combat games.

Because a 3 guy difference is low.

1v10, 5v25 and the like is never seen in MO. Except 1 vet in good gear vs total noobs in vendor gear.

Back before gear and numbers took over skill we in the top PvP guilds would have such fights with no losses several times a day every day. Little by little gear and simple numbers took more and more over and skill dwindled when devs decided to make the game easier because the masses cried because they died so often and versus lower numbers making the embarrassment all the worse.

 

[Teknique]

Because a 3 guy difference is low.

1v10, 5v25 and the like is never seen in MO. Except 1 vet in good gear vs total noobs in vendor gear.

Back before gear and numbers took over skill we in the top PvP guilds would have such fights with no losses several times a day every day. Little by little gear and simple numbers took more and more over and skill dwindled when devs decided to make the game easier because the masses cried because they died so often and versus lower numbers making the embarrassment all the worse.

I feel like the start of mo 2 alpha I could 1vX or Ironman pretty well.

I’m sure there are other factor buts I can’t even 1v1 Gannicus now before when I could previously Ironman him

 

[Rennuir]

I feel like the start of mo 2 alpha I could 1vX or Ironman pretty well.

I’m sure there are other factor buts I can’t even 1v1 Gannicus now before when I could previously Ironman him

sounds like gannicus got gud

 

[MolagAmur]

sounds like gannicus got gud

Or made his ping even higher....if thats even possible.

 

[Phen]

Or made his ping even higher....if thats even possible.

VPN's would make you have higher ping. But he just has booboo internet. Check out the gannicus come and teleport video, he literally flies. Though VPN's shouldnt be allowed they do tamper with ping to give more latency if someone wanted it..

Because a 3 guy difference is low.

1v10, 5v25 and the like is never seen in MO. Except 1 vet in good gear vs total noobs in vendor gear.

Back before gear and numbers took over skill we in the top PvP guilds would have such fights with no losses several times a day every day. Little by little gear and simple numbers took more and more over and skill dwindled when devs decided to make the game easier because the masses cried because they died so often and versus lower numbers making the embarrassment all the worse.

I still feel like if we are talking big number 25vs40 i think having 40 would make things harder then having 25. The skilled 25 pvp players vs 40 pve/pvp player im still fairly sure the 25 skilled fighters would win. Lots has to do with practice in the game. I still would love to test uneven numbers with these alpha team fights to see what really shows. Skill or numbers. I still feel like numbers would win a good majority but I think the skilled player will still pull wins.

If anyone is willing to try this uneven team fights to verify skill vs zerg i would be happy to set up a date for it. I still feel like MO1 has a better zerg advantage than MO2 just because of how the combat has changed. It's so much slower the dps has dropped a lot, once some form of healing comes in, these skilled combatants may not die unless they slip up in a dive.

 

[MolagAmur]

I still feel like if we are talking big number 25vs40 i think having 40 would make things harder then having 25. The skilled 25 pvp players vs 40 pve/pvp player im still fairly sure the 25 skilled fighters would win. Lots has to do with practice in the game. I still would love to test uneven numbers with these alpha team fights to see what really shows. Skill or numbers. I still feel like numbers would win a good majority but I think the skilled player will still pull wins.

What is even your point with all this? What are you trying to prove? Its not a simple as X amount of numbers can beat Y, There isn't a magic number. Skill doesn't have a set value...its varies from person to person.

Also your comment about hiring NPC guards to add to your numbers as a small man group makes me want to vomit. You just don't get it do you...