Run away from melee

[Azazell]

I'm trying to create a human character and I have a question.
What should be the optimal running speed difference in order to effectively escape from melee with a Tuskar?

For example, Tuskar builds usually have Combat speed ~419-420 at agility of 89-91 (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Then what speed should be so that the character could escape from close combat without serious problems, or at least without dying?

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

Your dexterity has a large effect on your run speed, so if you want to evade a close-quarter melee encounter, you'll want at the very minimum 100 dex.

 

[Jackdstripper]

You wont really see much of a difference in sprinting speed unless you have the max dex of a Vheela at 123. Even at that speed you arent that much faster than a 100 dex human. The difference is small. And the difference between a human and a Thursar is almost null.

What truly gives Vheelas their “run away” speed is the speed clade they get.

Trying to make a human that can “run away” is kind of pointless. You might barely run away from other humans (or slower races), but not from Vheelas. They are way way better at being fast.

 

[Emdash]

Khurite fit/lean speed, probably, 249-50~ 430. The key is to realize when it's time to run and plan an escape, not just try to dip out when you are almost dead. You need to create some space, cuz as said, the speed differences are very minimal if looked at side-by-side.

Some ways to do this are... hold a swing and go at them, cancel when they put up parry and KEEP running. Hit into a parry, hope to dodge counter, then run away. You need to make them take an action that will create space then run in a straight line. IF your net is shaky, you will desync and they will catch you anyway, but generally... if they aren't hitting you, they won't, if they are... you probably are dead. As Jack said only a veela can create space and move out of hit range (with both buffs, optimally,) but many people make the mistake of just trying run. The thing is, when you turn, if they are attacking you, they will keep attacking you, that's why you need to break the cycle of their attacks somehow, make them release shift for a second, too, probably.

Edit: also depends on the skill of your opponent obv. Peoples brains are so trained to throw up a parry and then do a counter that you can use that to your advantage. If your opponent is actually thinking, it's tough. You wanna get a very tip of the window parry (cuz a thur likely outranges you, too.) I mean, I've 'made' people parry thrusts with hammers. It's just muscle memory. Use it to your advantage!

You're never gonna 'just run away' as a human. Kiting tho, is a thing.

 

[Hodo]

I'm trying to create a human character and I have a question.
What should be the optimal running speed difference in order to effectively escape from melee with a Tuskar?

For example, Tuskar builds usually have Combat speed ~419-420 at agility of 89-91 (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Then what speed should be so that the character could escape from close combat without serious problems, or at least without dying?

Here is the issue... to out run any Thursar you need to be more than 10% faster than them. No human can do that. Even a lean Khurite who tops out at 433, can barely out run a lean Thursar-Khurite who goes 428. It wont be enough to put distance on them before they beat you to death. Even a stout Thursar-Khurite would still keep with you long enough to beat you to death at 423. Fact is unless you have a 10% or better speed advantage you wont be able to put distance before they beat you to death.

Humans are not built to run from anything its like saying you're an Oghmire sprinter... it just doesnt work.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

I'd look for random players sprinting who are thursars (and maybe even veelas) and sprint after them, and see if you're catching up to them or not.

Just don't do it in a way that makes you look like you're trying to do anything untoward.

 

[Azazell]

Now I understand, thanks everyone!
It looks like I can't escape the fight. Although it looks rather strange, having the advantage of 15 dexterity and not being able to escape.

Khurite fit/lean speed, probably, 249-50~ 430. The key is to realize when it's time to run and plan an escape, not just try to dip out when you are almost dead. You need to create some space, cuz as said, the speed differences are very minimal if looked at side-by-side.

Some ways to do this are... hold a swing and go at them, cancel when they put up parry and KEEP running. Hit into a parry, hope to dodge counter, then run away. You need to make them take an action that will create space then run in a straight line. IF your net is shaky, you will desync and they will catch you anyway, but generally... if they aren't hitting you, they won't, if they are... you probably are dead. As Jack said only a veela can create space and move out of hit range (with both buffs, optimally,) but many people make the mistake of just trying run. The thing is, when you turn, if they are attacking you, they will keep attacking you, that's why you need to break the cycle of their attacks somehow, make them release shift for a second, too, probably.

Edit: also depends on the skill of your opponent obv. Peoples brains are so trained to throw up a parry and then do a counter that you can use that to your advantage. If your opponent is actually thinking, it's tough. You wanna get a very tip of the window parry (cuz a thur likely outranges you, too.) I mean, I've 'made' people parry thrusts with hammers. It's just muscle memory. Use it to your advantage!

You're never gonna 'just run away' as a human. Kiting tho, is a thing.

Hmm, looks like something that might work. Need to try.

 

[Emdash]

Here is the issue... to out run any Thursar you need to be more than 10% faster than them. No human can do that. Even a lean Khurite who tops out at 433, can barely out run a lean Thursar-Khurite who goes 428. It wont be enough to put distance on them before they beat you to death. Even a stout Thursar-Khurite would still keep with you long enough to beat you to death at 423. Fact is unless you have a 10% or better speed advantage you wont be able to put distance before they beat you to death.

Humans are not built to run from anything its like saying you're an Oghmire sprinter... it just doesnt work.

You sure people even still run thur khur? P sure most people are on Thur Kall which is more like Ogh, like dude said 420. Lean Thur Khur is hax if you want to do chasing/soloing most people. Could prol jet from a TKAL, too. Like I said tho, you just need to make an opening, but I've already tested lean v stout veela even and it's barely notice-able. However, ON EVERYTHING when you are running around as a lean veela, it absolutely is notice-able. Just need to get out of hit range. Dunno if people get sprint broken anymore or not tbh. Game is def different. "Combat balance" secondary, almost nobody runs real balance anymore.

Just 1 miss, that's all you need to get away

Edit: @ dex, yea they changed the speed curve at some point (waaay back Con even affected speed.) Even lean khurite at 116 or whatever isn't fast enough to straight up run away. Then giving alvarins the speed boost clades. I mean you can roll an alv with like 90 dex and it'll be as fast as a lean khur with the buffs + you can put on the shouts/active buff and just jet away. My Lean veela runs over 500 with buffs

Plus, dex = more jump and alv can combat jump, so they can bunny hop to make it even harder to get them. It's quite insane. Veela 31 is IMO best spec in the game if you are trying to have speed and they are also surprisingly versatile. Can likely run every build in the game.

Humans are mostly for crafting and magic/hybrid or mounted. They are good enough, but they don't have any advantage in raw combat. Speed, especially. Hopefully, they will realize their mistake and at least make Sard and Khurite have more burst speed.

 

[Azazell]

Just 1 miss, that's all you need to get away

How it works? So if I get hit then I slow down? And if I dodge, then can I run away?

 

[Jackdstripper]

How it works? So if I get hit then I slow down? And if I dodge, then can I run away?

More like if they are bad you get away, otherwise you get hit in the back and die.

Listen to what everyone is telling you. Humans are not good at kiting. Running away wont save you unless its a fat Oghmir chasing you.
The fastest human build (all Khurite) has 108 dex. Give that a try if you must, but prepare to be disappointed. The difference between 100 dex and 108 is almost unnoticeable.

I suggest a large tower shield to cover your back. At least that way when you are attempting your running away it will take them a few extra hits to kill you

 

[Emdash]

How it works? So if I get hit then I slow down? And if I dodge, then can I run away?

Jack isn't wrong except that it'd be 110 w/ clade gift and +1 raw dex trinkets are pretty easy to find on your own. I have a Khur age 26 fit (losing 1 dex.) From 111-112 dex there is actually a jump in speed to 250/431. Still get 190~ health 100+ str 20+ dmg bonus. Pretty crazy con/stam FOR A HUMAN. The whole thing is FOR A HUMAN. They keep saying they will buff and then subtly buffing humans, but they haven't addressed their core attribute problem and the fact that they don't have their own place on the speed curve.

When you fight, you should be consistently disengaging and re-engaging. I am not one of those 100-1000 hour duelists, but I mean, you have to fight, so that's how it is. It's rhythmic, so you want to somehow get away during the disengage portion. Good or bad, you should be able to get that space consistently, but it takes time to turn, etc. Also doesn't mean they can't swap and bow you down haha re: tower shield. Jack is just trolling w/ that though haha.

I am unsure if being hit still slows you down, but you need to somehow trick them or they have to make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes, unfortunately, that is true for the player (you.) So there could be luck involved, could be 'bad' involved, but loool a lot of people are 'bad' in that their fight exp comes from fighting in town naked. They can dunk you, but they don't have a real understanding of space etc.

It's just something you have to learn if you stick with a human. Plus, you have to look forward to when SV actually gets their head out of their ass and gives them a speed between ogh/thur and alv.

Alv has the 'get out of jail free' card you want. One of their speed actives cycles pretty fast and the other you can keep up for emergencies.

420 vs 430 is like 'tick' run difference, which means if you are chasing someone/running away it will kind of seem like your distance is being updated as a mining tick, you are slowly getting closer or further away. I deleted my YouTube stuff, but I was chasing this guy on my Khur back when I was stout, and he was not even in combat mode, and it still took a great distance to catch him. I knew it was gonna happen, but it took a bit.

Still, being able to escape is possible. More dex also helps turning on mounts (very underrated imo.) But the main thing I was trying to say is IF they are hitting you as you run away, you are probably dead. If they aren't, you will probably get away (unless you stam out or they use a bow to finish you haha,) another alv advantage is they have resting pulse so if you do come close to stamming you can 'wait' take a parry or so and run again.

TLDR is 'you can't run away' the way you are talking about on any character but alv (and even w/ what seems like low dex will be enough once you get boosted,) however, I spent a long time in this game playing without using parry, so I can get some dodges. It comes down to spacialy out playing your opponent, something most players do not have a firm grasp on, but, in the end, you are barely faster.

Human isn't as bad as people say (dey mad, and I'm mad, too... cuz Khur used to be legit enough to play as a B+ or so tier foot fighter, for people who were tired of the meta) but escaping close quarters is gonna require a decent amount of 'outplay' in MO2, and to be completely real, there isn't that much of an outplay gap (watch the infinite parry fests to see.) Still IT'S POSSIBLE, you just have to plan ahead, and you don't really have any advantage from being a human. ESPECIALLY as a non-khur, you're just at 'eat me' speed, but SV still thinks Khurite is on the Mt Rushmore of foot fighters, so they take a pretty heavy attribute penalty. Alv, again, gets more attributes, pretty sure heh.

 

[Hodo]

You sure people even still run thur khur? P sure most people are on Thur Kall which is more like Ogh, like dude said 420. Lean Thur Khur is hax if you want to do chasing/soloing most people. Could prol jet from a TKAL, too. Like I said tho, you just need to make an opening, but I've already tested lean v stout veela even and it's barely notice-able. However, ON EVERYTHING when you are running around as a lean veela, it absolutely is notice-able. Just need to get out of hit range. Dunno if people get sprint broken anymore or not tbh. Game is def different. "Combat balance" secondary, almost nobody runs real balance anymore.

Just 1 miss, that's all you need to get away

Edit: @ dex, yea they changed the speed curve at some point (waaay back Con even affected speed.) Even lean khurite at 116 or whatever isn't fast enough to straight up run away. Then giving alvarins the speed boost clades. I mean you can roll an alv with like 90 dex and it'll be as fast as a lean khur with the buffs + you can put on the shouts/active buff and just jet away. My Lean veela runs over 500 with buffs

Plus, dex = more jump and alv can combat jump, so they can bunny hop to make it even harder to get them. It's quite insane. Veela 31 is IMO best spec in the game if you are trying to have speed and they are also surprisingly versatile. Can likely run every build in the game.

Humans are mostly for crafting and magic/hybrid or mounted. They are good enough, but they don't have any advantage in raw combat. Speed, especially. Hopefully, they will realize their mistake and at least make Sard and Khurite have more burst speed.

There is a reason I didnt bring up Thur-Kal. Because height.

So a T-Khur can run just about anyone non-Alvarin down a T-Kal can reach anyone they cant run down long enough to beat them to a pulp.

People often forget about that little thing, reach. A T-Kal has the longest physical reach of any race in the game, and can turn a 2h sword into a pole weapon for reach, and god help you if they have a spear or poleaxe. You will NEVER get out of their range before they beat you down.

If you want to be able to run away you need to be Alvarin, more specifically a Veela.

 

[Jatix]

If a good player is hitting you in melee range you cant just turn and run away, regardless of run speed. Even if you have an Alvarin with 20+ speed over others, you still get hit several times before you get gap which at that point you are dead.

So my advice, dont factor movement speed into your human build. Go stout age 30. And do whatever races do good at what you want. Tin and sard have highest mana, Sidoian has more height int and str caps but a bit less mana. I dont recommend khurite and kallard because they are bad thursars. But if you really want to be a human fighter maybe go kallard (which is still a bad thursar). Khurite wants to be fast but is way slower than an Alvarin so its just kinda bad.

 

[Hodo]

If a good player is hitting you in melee range you cant just turn and run away, regardless of run speed. Even if you have an Alvarin with 20+ speed over others, you still get hit several times before you get gap which at that point you are dead.

So my advice, dont factor movement speed into your human build. Go stout age 30. And do whatever races do good at what you want. Tin and sard have highest mana, Sidoian has more height int and str caps but a bit less mana. I dont recommend khurite and kallard because they are bad thursars. But if you really want to be a human fighter maybe go kallard (which is still a bad thursar). Khurite wants to be fast but is way slower than an Alvarin so its just kinda bad.

Even pure Sarducaans make decent hybrid or psy fighters. With the 100psy is nice.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Idk why people care that much abou run speed. I play an oghmir. Just bring a horse, or two horses, or three horses. When one dies, jump on the other. You're not gonna be able to run away from 99% of fights

 

[Azazell]

Plus, you have to look forward to when SV actually gets their head out of their ass and gives them a speed between ogh/thur and alv.

Apparently, in the next patch, attribute points will be added to Khurs and Kalls. But it seems that they didn’t say anything about movespeed

 

[Jatix]

Apparently, in the next patch, attribute points will be added to Khurs and Kalls. But it seems that they didn’t say anything about movespeed

So the issue is this doesnt fix their core issues.

The other humans are good because they are good hybrids. Aka, they can mage and melee decently at the same time. Some have a bit more of one thing or the other but they are all good at it in a way.

Kallard and Khurite have worse 'melee stats' than thursars and ogh. Having more attributes only gives them more mana. But going from garbage mana, to still probobly garbage mana, is still way worse at magic than the other human races. And still a worse fighter than thur and khurite. Which puts them in a rough spot. Khurite are faster than a thursar. But still way slower than an Alvarin.

Maybe if the buffs are good you can at least get decent psy on a kallard or khurite. Which at least makes it a better thur if you get attacked by magic.

I guess the question is if you really want to make a human, how interested are you in magic? Because if you dont want to touch magic at all, that puts you in a rough spot. You can make a khurite or kallard. But I feel like their benefits dont outweigh the downsides. So having a generally worse build doesnt help as a new player when you are fighting experienced players with better gear. You need every benefit you can get.

The only other redeeming quality of humans is their extra skilling points. Which if you want to be self sufficient, is huge. You can fit a bit more, which can make somethign fit. But most crafting and lores get their bonus from int. so being a mage and a human gives extra points.

 

[Azazell]

So the issue is this doesnt fix their core issues.

The other humans are good because they are good hybrids. Aka, they can mage and melee decently at the same time. Some have a bit more of one thing or the other but they are all good at it in a way.

Kallard and Khurite have worse 'melee stats' than thursars and ogh. Having more attributes only gives them more mana. But going from garbage mana, to still probobly garbage mana, is still way worse at magic than the other human races. And still a worse fighter than thur and khurite. Which puts them in a rough spot. Khurite are faster than a thursar. But still way slower than an Alvarin.

Maybe if the buffs are good you can at least get decent psy on a kallard or khurite. Which at least makes it a better thur if you get attacked by magic.

I guess the question is if you really want to make a human, how interested are you in magic? Because if you dont want to touch magic at all, that puts you in a rough spot. You can make a khurite or kallard. But I feel like their benefits dont outweigh the downsides. So having a generally worse build doesnt help as a new player when you are fighting experienced players with better gear. You need every benefit you can get.

The only other redeeming quality of humans is their extra skilling points. Which if you want to be self sufficient, is huge. You can fit a bit more, which can make somethign fit. But most crafting and lores get their bonus from int. so being a mage and a human gives extra points.

Yes, I eventually lean towards something like a paladin.
Maybe this build will give me at least some advantage over other races.

 

[Jatix]

Yes, I eventually lean towards something like a paladin.
Maybe this build will give me at least some advantage over other races.

Human paladin is an excellent build. and by far the best paladin race. With the 'clerec' clade gift humans have, you can regen in heavier armor. Your regen at 14-16 weight isnt great, but it does go up. Its still like 40%. Which means you can occasionally shoot and heal and your mana will refill for when you really need it. And any mix of tind/sard/sidoian, max height, you still have much more mana and damage bonus than alvarin paladins.

I'd go any mix of tind/sid/sard that you like, max height, stout weight.

bonus fun fact, you can look like a specific race by only having 1 of that race. So if you wanted to look like a specific race but dont prefer its stats, you use one of that, 2 of another, then 1 of another. You could use this to look like a khurite or kallard whithout overly killing your mage stats if you wanted to look like one of those.

 

[Emdash]

Apparently, in the next patch, attribute points will be added to Khurs and Kalls. But it seems that they didn’t say anything about movespeed

You sure that isn't an old note? That already happened, and if they do it again, that's hair-pulling! But yes, they did give them new buffs (they buffed twice.) What they gave amounted to about 8 att points for Khur and Kall and then they did the re-work of cleric and the +50 action points. It makes you feel like you should take magic on every human (imo?) SOME magic. I haven't had any luck with the 20% 'minimum' regen for +18 weight, but under 18, if you can find a set you like at around 15 it's beautiful. haha, repeating what Jatix says, looking up. Khurite splinted is the most absolute doggy, spammy 'just enough' armor in the game, but with cleric you can get pretty massive regen. It definitely takes the edge off, but it works best on (back to the theme) characters who can RUN AWAY.

They need another buff. I've already spammed my wishes, but yeah, magic and mounted, humans are nice. I have this weird feeling if we just got 25% regen min instead of 20, it would be enough haha. I wish you luck in your human journey! I support them. I think SV will fix because so much of their population is humans, and while they did give them a niche (Tindremene was the 'owow look what I found' hybrid build when they adjusted the speed curve the last time in MO1, and that was before Cleric!) they still don't have a diversity of playstyles. The 4 human types are way more different than the 2 variations of non human types, and the Thursar x only get variation because of being... mixed with humans!