Racial/Clade balance... What is up with this Henrik?

[Tashka]

I personally think they are ok when it comes to balance.

Yet barely anyone plays them. Again there is nothing unique a khurite gains from his high dex. Even alvarins still have to resort to their active gifts from time to time, despite having highest dex AND passive speed buffs AND stamina regen buffs. 2% may sometimes be helpful, but it's extremely situational. You're just 100 units away from attack range on an oghmir, you need over 10 seconds to catch up on him. More than enough for him to get his whole hp back, or at least most of it.

As for free skill points, well oghmir has 100 to save on PU, and around 55 on HAT, cause he can wear 27 kilos without HAT maxed. Let's say not everyone bothers with PU, so let's stop at 55. 75 if the oghmir uses axes/clubs. Plus some additional skillpoints from exceptional str/con.

 

[Moored]

Yet barely anyone plays them. Again there is nothing unique a khurite gains from his high dex. Even alvarins still have to resort to their active gifts from time to time, despite having highest dex AND passive speed buffs AND stamina regen buffs. 2% may sometimes be helpful, but it's extremely situational. You're just 100 units away from attack range on an oghmir, you need over 10 seconds to catch up on him. More than enough for him to get his whole hp back, or at least most of it.

As for free skill points, well oghmir has 100 to save on PU, and around 55 on HAT, cause he can wear 27 kilos without HAT maxed. Let's say not everyone bothers with PU, so let's stop at 55. 75 if the oghmir uses axes/clubs. Plus some additional skillpoints from exceptional str/con.

A lot of the time you will have 10 seconds to chase someone down, and if not, at least you have the option to do so. As a Khur, and as long as the enemy is not Alv and you are out of weapons reach, can just run in a straight line and will not be caught.

If the Ogh puts his weapon away to heal he will slow down. I think Ogh is over tuned though, so comparing Khur to Ogh as a reason for Khur needing buff is not something i want to do.

 

[Tashka]

I think Ogh is over tuned though, so comparing Khur to Ogh as a reason for Khur needing buff is not something i want to do.

Well Thursar is hardly overtuned, yet it has higher damage bonus and more health than khurite and much more powerful gifts. 2% speed difference isn't that important to compensate for mediocre stats and shit gifts.

Again, i see oghmirs, i see veelas, i see thursars, i even see tind/sard all the time, kallards sometimes, i see experienced players who can easily win 1v4 playing these clades (so it's not like they're sleeping on a khurite) but i don't think i've seen a single khurite in like a month except maybe a couple of complete noobs.

 

[Moored]

Well Thursar is hardly overtuned, yet it has higher damage bonus and more health than khurite and much more powerful gifts. 2% speed difference isn't that important to compensate for mediocre stats and shit gifts.

Again, i see oghmirs, i see veelas, i see thursars, i even see tind/sard all the time, kallards sometimes, i see experienced players who can easily win 1v4 playing these clades (so it's not like they're sleeping on a khurite) but i don't think i've seen a single khurite in like a month except maybe a couple of complete noobs.

Well idk what to tell you, if you don't value speed then khur is not a good pick.

 

[Hodo]

I like your approach, however, like you said that situation is not realistic, but ill humor you. The 15-20 stamina the Ogh has after the Khur has run out of stam will be used to to close the distance gained by the Khur + initial distance separating the two, all the while the Khur is regaining stam. Best case scenario is the Ogh has enough stam to get off one attack, that will likely be blocked and then the Ogh is out of stam and the Khur can run away, with a speed AND stamina advantage. Your argument would be more valid if the stamina disparity was 50+, but even then, it takes stamina to do damage, and it takes less stam to block than it does to attack so its really only a matter of time before the Khur gets away.

Khurites are unique in that they are fast, have a large stamina pool and a ~23% damage bonus. None that hit harder are faster. The only characters that can catch a Khur are ones that are at a significant melee disadvantage. I personally think they are ok when it comes to balance. Using speed advantage effectively is difficult, but it is extremely powerful.

Not realistic? LOL Have you been in a open field foot fight? I literally watched people run down khurites over distance because they just had WAY more stam. In a typical fight, if you turn and run you're dead. Why? if you're not a Alvarin with a stupid dex you arent going to have enough stamina to make any real distance, and you're not fast enough to get away from the typical Oghmir foot fighter.

 

[Hodo]

Well Thursar is hardly overtuned, yet it has higher damage bonus and more health than khurite and much more powerful gifts. 2% speed difference isn't that important to compensate for mediocre stats and shit gifts.

Again, i see oghmirs, i see veelas, i see thursars, i even see tind/sard all the time, kallards sometimes, i see experienced players who can easily win 1v4 playing these clades (so it's not like they're sleeping on a khurite) but i don't think i've seen a single khurite in like a month except maybe a couple of complete noobs.

I saw ONE khurite last night in Meduli, it was an unguilded naked crafter. Which tells you everything you need to know about how sad that is.

 

[Tashka]

Well idk what to tell you, if you don't value speed then khur is not a good pick.

If i value speed i chose alvarin. Alvarins have speed and mobility that actually matters. Khur can't even catch a bulging sheevra ffs.

 

[Kaquenqos]

If i value speed i chose alvarin. Alvarins have speed and mobility that actually matters. Khur can't even catch a bulging sheevra ffs.

I guess what I'm wondering is, while I agree for minmax pvp humans & khurites in particular are a bit under-tuned, they also have the most build diversity for attributes & skills. Khurite are one of the more viable human races for foot/MA, while still falling short due to being the best crafter/generalist/hybrid-build clade, eg. human.

So, what do you think the balance should be? Maybe the most 'balanced' option would be to tune down certain Ogh & Alv clade gifts a bit and keep humans the same? It seems to me like human shouldn't be just as good as footfighters/MA as ogh who have less attributes & skill-points overall, or alv who have less dmg bonus & health & skills overall(or as Thursar who have similar limitations for that matter).


You're never going to have perfect balance if you want unique races/clades; the whole point is that certain ones will be objective meta for a specific build... So it's kind of a tricky task. Tuning down certain clade gifts would probably be the best option, but making Ogh/Alv no better than human for pure-builds and also have less attri/skill variety is still unbalanced. Why would you roll anything but human?

 

[Tashka]

I guess what I'm wondering is, while I agree for minmax pvp humans & khurites in particular are a bit under-tuned, they also have the most build diversity for attributes & skills.

They don't. They can't be anything but a mediocre footfighter. They can't be hybrids, can't be psy fighters. They suck at MA too, because a dedicated MA basically must have MM for healing, and you aren't getting any MM healing with 45 intelligence and 65 mana. Again tind/sard are simply better at it. Khurites are among the *least* versatile clades in the game. They have some extra stat points over oghmir, but due to their caps, these points, and more, are wasted, 100% useless.

So, what do you think the balance should be? Maybe the most 'balanced' option would be to tune down certain Ogh & Alv clade gifts a bit and keep humans the same?

Balance-wise i think khurites should have way higher dex cap, maybe on par with alvarins. Yes khurites have higher str/con/damage bonus, but their gifts are shitty enough to compensate for this advantage. They still won't be as fast as veelas due to the lack of speed gifts, but at least they'll be finally able to catch bulging sheevras (lol), escape from oghmirs (lol again), and have weakspot chance that is little less of a meme (still not as good as veelas, no ws gift you see).

Lore wise idk, they're supposed to be best MA but without rebalancing the whole of human's gifts tree i don't think they'll ever be good at it. IDK maybe give humans a gift that lets them use veterenary while mounted (maybe with longer cooldown) so that they won't need MM anymore to be pure MAs.

To me, that seems to be the thing. Humans are not really supposed to be the meta for pure builds.

That's the problem. Khurites are only any good (while still being terrible) for pure builds, and not a wide range of them. Just a good old footfighter, nothing else really.

 

[Kaquenqos]

That's the problem. Khurites are only any good (while still being terrible) for pure builds, and not a wide range of them. Just a good old footfighter, nothing else really.

Yeah, I can see what you mean.
Maybe a minor attribute buff would be good considering the way it shakes out.

Bringing Khurite up to 454 like Kallard with 114 dex cap would work for them, and I don't think it would make them too OP. They'd have a bit more room skill wise due to human clades, but still be slower at large than Alv. Obviously the argument that they're a poor-man's Alv PvP wise would still be there, but at least you'd be a bit less squishy, have a bit more damage, and the benefits crafting/skill wise of being human as a trade-off for being a bit slower.

 

[Hodo]

I guess what I'm wondering is, while I agree for minmax pvp humans & khurites in particular are a bit under-tuned, they also have the most build diversity for attributes & skills. Khurite are one of the more viable human races for foot/MA, while still falling short due to being the best crafter/generalist/hybrid-build clade, eg. human.

So, what do you think the balance should be? Maybe the most 'balanced' option would be to tune down certain Ogh & Alv clade gifts a bit and keep humans the same? It seems to me like human shouldn't be just as good as footfighters/MA as ogh who have less attributes & skill-points overall, or alv who have less dmg bonus & health & skills overall(or as Thursar who have similar limitations for that matter).


You're never going to have perfect balance if you want unique races/clades; the whole point is that certain ones will be objective meta for a specific build... So it's kind of a tricky task. Tuning down certain clade gifts would probably be the best option, but making Ogh/Alv no better than human for pure-builds and also have less attri/skill variety is still unbalanced. Why would you roll anything but human?

If you believe Khurite are one of the more viable human races for foot/MA you're sorely mistaken. Seeing as they are limited to a 106-111 str bow and barely have enough foot speed to out run a stout oghmir. Hell you're better off with a Sidoian or even a Kallard with its 115 str and 454-470 attribute points AND nearly 20 hitpoints advantage is HUGE on foot and on mount.


Sorry but there is literally nothing that can be said about the Khurite currently as they stand in game to say they are viable or balanced compared to even other Human clades let alone other races. At least with a Sarducaan or even Tindreme you have a decent hybrid build or can make a ok mounted mage.

 

[Kaquenqos]

If you believe Khurite are one of the more viable human races for foot/MA you're sorely mistaken. Seeing as they are limited to a 106-111 str bow and barely have enough foot speed to out run a stout oghmir. Hell you're better off with a Sidoian or even a Kallard with its 115 str and 454-470 attribute points AND nearly 20 hitpoints advantage is HUGE on foot and on mount.


Sorry but there is literally nothing that can be said about the Khurite currently as they stand in game to say they are viable or balanced compared to even other Human clades let alone other races. At least with a Sarducaan or even Tindreme you have a decent hybrid build or can make a ok mounted mage.

Yeah, I guess I just mean the idea is they are a bit faster and a bit weaker than Kallard. I did admit later, considering everything, Khurite could probably receive a straight attribute buff to bring them more in line with the other human races and still not be overpowered.


Thing is, I think the balance for the human clade is that they are the best all-arounders due to skill gifts & attribute pool... This will never translate to being the best min/max PvP build. If you're upset that you're playing human and not the best min/max PvP build, that's kind of on you. Probably, in this respect, humans are for people who either want to experiment a lot build/crafting wise, or just want to play human and don't care about having a slight handicap in specialized PvP roles.

The only way to get around having clades that are objectively the best at a specific role would be to make clades solely a cosmetic choice (which I don't think most people would be proponents of). That's not to say that I don't think some level of balance should be strived for, just that humans are not intended to be the best at a specific role due to the fact that they have the most room.


The other issue is, in terms of balance, I'm not sure how much an individual race is considered vs. an entire clade replete with unique clade gifts. You can always just mix your races. For that reason I personally feel this issue is pretty far from something that should be an immediate concern, albeit a buff to attributes for Khurite would be a nice/easy concession.

 

[Deleted member 44]

From what I'm gathering from this is that Alvarin need to have some attribute points removed.

 

[Tashka]

From what I'm gathering from this is that Alvarin need to have some attribute points removed.

Which would only hurt dex mages and it's not like they're OP.

 

[Hodo]

From what I'm gathering from this is that Alvarin need to have some attribute points removed.

Removal of attribute points is an option but as someone else pointed out it would hurt dex mages. I would honestly suggest removal or reduction of the Archers Arm and shoulder gifts from 10 str to 5 str each.