Racial/Clade balance... What is up with this Henrik?

[Hodo]

So looking at the clades or races again it still doesnt make a lick of sense on how they are balanced. When I asked about the Khurite in a stream a month ago you said "they are balanced because they have some really powerful attributes" WHAT attributes? They have a 104 strength which is less than a Sidoian, Blain, Huegar and even a Veela with the bow clades!

So let us look at the attribute point totals and how they break down. All my data is pulled from MortalData. And all races are at age 30 for just ease of baseline.

Humans
-Tindreme 490 attribute points total 100 str, 98 dex, 95 con, 102 int, 92 psy.
-Sidoian 470 attribute points total 108str, 94 dex, 103 con, 106 int, 80 psy.
-Sarducaan 490 attribute points total 92 str, 98 dex, 103 con, 98 int, 104 psy.
-Khurite 446 attribute points total 104 str, 106 dex, 111 con, 82 int, 96 psy.
-Kallard 454 attribute points total 108 str, 94 dex, 115 con, 74 int, 96 psy.


Oghmir
-Blainn 438 attribute points total 116 str, 90 dex, 131 con, 106 int, 88 psy.
-Huegar 438 attribute points total 116 str, 90 dex, 123 con, 110int, 92 psy.

Thursar
-Tindreme 462 attribute points total 110 str, 96 dex, 107 con, 88 int, 72 psy.
-Sidoian 452 attribute points total 114 str, 94 dex, 111 con, 90 int, 66 psy.
-Sarducaan 462 attribute points total 106 str, 96 dex, 111 con, 86 int, 78 psy.
-Khurite 440 attribute points total 112 str, 100 dex, 115 con, 78 int, 74 psy.
-Kallard 444 attribute points total 114 str, 94 dex, 117 con, 74 int, 74 psy.

Alvarin
-Veela 466 attribute points total 88 str, 118 dex, 99 con, 94 int, 104 psy.
-Sheevra 474 attribute points total 84 str, 114 dex, 99 con, 102 int, 108 psy.

So why the hell is the THURSAR-KHURITE have more hitpoints than a pure bread Khurite? Even if you calculate in height into the equation Khurite are the shortest humans at 166cm - 184cm. While the Thursar-Khurite is a 174-202cm tall... How does that balance out?

Now lets look at how it stacks up agains the Veela or even the Sheevra which both have WAY more attributes than any Khurite human build. Sheevras are 158cm - 180cm. Veelas are 162-184cm. So again how is this balancing out the Khurite? They are CONSIDERABLY weaker in attribute pools than any other race in the game and the Alvarins are without a doubt over performing.

I would love to see the analytics you say you have Henrik on this data but numbers dont lie, and these numbers dont look good.

 

[Moored]

Of course thur-khur is going to have more HP than a full Khur? why does that surprise you? You also say full Khur are considerably weaker in attribute pools than any other race but thats not true...ogh have 438 compared to full Khurs 446.

Seems like you need to refine your post a bit here. You're conclusions are not supported by data.

 

[Kaquenqos]

Khurite is not amazing or anything, but I don't think it's that badly suited as a slightly faster alternative to Kallard for foot/MA.

Veela is probably the best placed as far as strategic advantage goes, as the fastest & one of the smallest clades, complete with many good clade gifts... so comparing to them everything will look bad.

The thing with human is they have the most attributes, so bigger diversity of builds, and they get a lot of +skill bonuses from gifts & in result have the greatest diversity for skills as well. On paper, I think human is not supposed to be better at minmax melee/mage etc. for this reason. More of a jack of all trades, and the best option if you want to get the most in terms of crafting/build-diversity etc. out of just 1 char slot.

I do think that maybe for human races having 1 branch of clade gifts be race specific would be a cool trade-off. It would make sense to have Khurite have clade bonuses to steppe horseman type stuff, for example. Maybe the current intelligence/scholastic line stays as Tindremene or Sarducan... IDK, just a thought.

I guess you are right that Khurite isn't the 'best' at anything, but that's true of all humans and I think the idea is this is a trade-off for having so much +skill and attributes.

 

[Tashka]

ogh have 438 compared to full Khurs 446.

Ogh also has some insane stats and absolutely broken gifts. True, blain has a little less points but they can use them more effectively due to higher caps. Because after maxing str/dex/con you get what on a khurite? 29 free points i think? Not enough for a hybrid and not enough for meaningful defense from psy. These points are basically wasted.

 

[Kaquenqos]

Ogh also has some insane stats and absolutely broken gifts. True, blain has a little less points but they can use them more effectively due to higher caps. Because after maxing str/dex/con you get what on a khurite? 29 free points i think? Not enough for a hybrid and not enough for meaningful defense from psy.

Yeah, Ogh & Veela are probably the best placed clades atm, in terms of gifts & just min-maxability. (I'd say strategically Veela still have the edge with their high max speed and the insane amount of strategic importance that has)

Still, on the subject of Ogh vs Human, Ogh can basically only be full mage or full foot/MA.

These are some of the most viable builds mind you, but you can't get creative... To me, that seems to be the trade-off that SV has in mind re: humans vs. others. Humans will be worse on paper at any min-max build, but will have more build diversity & crafting diversity. I feel like it does kind of make sense not to give humans mastery of diversity & minmax builds, but I can see how it doesn't feel worth it if you are someone whose main concern is PvP.


I see that the argument is basically Khurite is pointless, and I get it since even Kallard has 4 more points... Really they are a slightly faster Kallard with 4 less attribute points. On the other hand, they are the fastest human race, & second fastest character type after Alvaarins... But maybe that's not enough with no +speed gifts... It would be cool to see a unique branch in clade gifts that's race specific for humans to help make some of the obvious 'on paper they're just worse' kinds of situations. Khurite having +bow & +MA stuff would make sense, thematically.

 

[Hodo]

Yeah, Ogh & Veela are probably the best placed clades atm, in terms of gifts & just min-maxability. (I'd say strategically Veela still have the edge with their high max speed and the insane amount of strategic importance that has)

Still, on the subject of Ogh vs Human, Ogh can basically only be full mage or full foot/MA.

These are some of the most viable builds mind you, but you can't get creative... To me, that seems to be the trade-off that SV has in mind re: humans vs. others. Humans will be worse on paper at any min-max build, but will have more build diversity & crafting diversity. I feel like it does kind of make sense not to give humans mastery of diversity & minmax builds, but I can see how it doesn't feel worth it if you are someone whose main concern is PvP.


I see that the argument is basically Khurite is pointless, and I get it since even Kallard has 4 more points... Really they are a slightly faster Kallard with 4 less attribute points. On the other hand, they are the fastest human race, & second fastest character type after Alvaarins... But maybe that's not enough with no +speed gifts... It would be cool to see a unique branch in clade gifts that's race specific for humans to help make some of the obvious 'on paper they're just worse' kinds of situations. Khurite having +bow & +MA stuff would make sense, thematically.

As an ogh, you dont have to put points in archery and you can hit for 70+ with a longbow on foot for farming. Tested it during beta, and have guildmates that run that exact build now.

 

[Hodo]

Of course thur-khur is going to have more HP than a full Khur? why does that surprise you? You also say full Khur are considerably weaker in attribute pools than any other race but thats not true...ogh have 438 compared to full Khurs 446.

Seems like you need to refine your post a bit here. You're conclusions are not supported by data.

You do realize that 8 points amounts to NOTHING right? When it only calculates factors of 10 for skills and the speed difference between 90 dex and 106 dex is next to nothing, yet the damage bonus and hitpoint gainst from the 20+ points of strength and constitution that an oghmir has over a Khurite makes zero sense.

I mean hell the Sarducaan is almost a better more viable player option for a MA than a race that is shown and told to be an Mounted race.... based on the Mongol hordes.

 

[Kaquenqos]

As an ogh, you dont have to put points in archery and you can hit for 70+ with a longbow on foot for farming. Tested it during beta, and have guildmates that run that exact build now.

I assume that is to some extent a feature that all clades can take advantage of? How much damage do you even get out of having maxed archery vs 1 then? Is this how it is intended to work?

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Ogh isn't a superior melee/archer than human, in most respects they are (excepting movement speed). My feeling is just that the 'balance' for humans is that they have more attributes & skills at their disposal than other clades. I agree with you that this advantage falls a bit flat on the attribute end for Khurite, who get the least attributes out of human races. As a trade off, I think it would be cool if clade gifts were slightly different for different races; so for Khurite maybe you lose some of that versatility for + crafting gifts & get +ranged and +MA or something like that.

 

[Hodo]

I assume that is to some extent a feature that all clades can take advantage of? How much damage do you even get out of having maxed archery vs 1 then? Is this how it is intended to work?

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Ogh isn't a superior melee/archer than human, in most respects they are (excepting movement speed). My feeling is just that the 'balance' for humans is that they have more attributes & skills at their disposal than other clades. I agree with you that this advantage falls a bit flat on the attribute end for Khurite, who get the least attributes out of human races. As a trade off, I think it would be cool if clade gifts were slightly different for different races; so for Khurite maybe you lose some of that versatility for + crafting gifts & get +ranged and +MA or something like that.

The damage difference for not having archery vs having it is minor. You do 70-80% of the damage a max skilled archery player does with the same weapon. This isnt true for melee damage.. if you dont have the skill you do anywhere from 10% to half of the max damage for the weapon with zero skill.

 

[Moored]

You do realize that 8 points amounts to NOTHING right? When it only calculates factors of 10 for skills and the speed difference between 90 dex and 106 dex is next to nothing, yet the damage bonus and hitpoint gainst from the 20+ points of strength and constitution that an oghmir has over a Khurite makes zero sense.

I mean hell the Sarducaan is almost a better more viable player option for a MA than a race that is shown and told to be an Mounted race.... based on the Mongol hordes.

8 points amounts to 8 points. The difference between 90 and 106 dex is just over 2% movement speed, which is significant. Khur and ogh have similar damage bonus. I don't mean to be an asshole but your arguments are not well presented and your conclusions are baseless.

 

[Tashka]

The difference between 90 and 106 dex is just over 2% movement speed, which is significant.

What's the significance? You still can't kite like an alvarin, still can't catch a dex mage, can't even escape from a blainn or catch him 'cause he has like 4% more stamina.

 

[Moored]

What's the significance? You still can't kite like an alvarin, still can't catch a dex mage, can't even escape from a blainn or catch him 'cause he has like 4% more stamina.

2% is significant when you consider that the base speed difference between Ogh and Alv is less than 6%.

 

[Jatix]

Pure khurite is better than people think but still bad. Its a faster fighter, that's still WAY slower than any Alv. So if you want to actually go fast its still just bad. It needs more dext and a bit more str or something. The other human races can hybrid with their good attribute points. Khurite cant. And shouldn't have to.

And this doesnt even factor in clade gifts, which humans have eh ones for pvp.

 

[Wyndorn]

I do think that maybe for human races having 1 branch of clade gifts be race specific would be a cool trade-off. It would make sense to have Khurite have clade bonuses to steppe horseman type stuff, for example. Maybe the current intelligence/scholastic line stays as Tindremene or Sarducan... IDK, just a thought.

This can't work because you can build characters of mixed race

 

[Hodo]

8 points amounts to 8 points. The difference between 90 and 106 dex is just over 2% movement speed, which is significant. Khur and ogh have similar damage bonus. I don't mean to be an asshole but your arguments are not well presented and your conclusions are baseless.

As someone else pointed out, 2% movement speed is nothing when you consider the Ogh have 4% more stamina... which means they will just run you down over distance and beat you to death because they hit WAY harder than you can ever dream of while wearing WAY more armor than you.

So the question is what is the answer or solution? Do you nerf Oghmir? No... Do you nerf Alvarin? Maybe.... Do you buff Khurite? YES. I dont understand why the Khurite, Sidoians and Kallard are so weak attribute pool wise when compared to the Sarducaan or Tindreme?

 

[Hodo]

This can't work because you can build characters of mixed race

And in anything other than Tin, and Sard you have to mix them to make them even vaguely viable for more than one thing. A pure bred Kallard is a poor mans Thursar from Wish.

 

[Kaquenqos]

This can't work because you can build characters of mixed race

Yeah, I was thinking of that.

Currently you can pick mixed race & get the aesthetic of one or the other race. So, in this regard they chose not to have to 'mix and match' the visuals.

I don't see why a similar mechanic couldn't be implemented for clade gifts, if they did do what I'm suggesting. For example, if you are 50% Khurite 50% Tindremene, a toggle appears with which you get to pick which 'race specific' clade gift line you want. It would allow for even greater build diversity for humans. Eg. if you have 3/4 of one race, you get your majority race's gift-line, if you are a complete mix you get to toggle from any of them.

Sadly, the downside of RPGs that have meaningful stat & racial ability differences between races is that there will always be a meta. To some extent having certain races/clades be the meta is the point, but on the other hand people don't want to see one option completely left in the dust of the others. I'm sure there would just be new metas with this system.

But, it would at least ameliorate the situation for humans that want to be minmax PvP builds feeling they are just 'a poor man's version of "clade-x" '.

Again, just an idea & not something I think should be a priority, nor do I think it will be implemented really. I think the point of humans atm is that they are the best all-arounder with greatest diversity; have the most skills at their disposal, and, depending on race, by far the most attributes. If you are someone whose main focus is competitive PvP minmaxing, probably you are not intended to roll human for anything but hybrid (& even then you are probably better to go Veela for the speed).

 

[Moored]

As someone else pointed out, 2% movement speed is nothing when you consider the Ogh have 4% more stamina... which means they will just run you down over distance and beat you to death because they hit WAY harder than you can ever dream of while wearing WAY more armor than you.

So the question is what is the answer or solution? Do you nerf Oghmir? No... Do you nerf Alvarin? Maybe.... Do you buff Khurite? YES. I dont understand why the Khurite, Sidoians and Kallard are so weak attribute pool wise when compared to the Sarducaan or Tindreme?

"Ogh have 4% more stamina... which means they will just run you down over distance and beat you to death"

The difference in stamina between Khur and Ogh is only 15. If you are run down by an Ogh as a Khur, its because you messed up.

"because they hit WAY harder than you can ever dream of"

Again, Ogh and Khur have the same damage bonus.

Its hard to take your suggestions seriously when you seemingly have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Tashka]

The difference in stamina between Khur and Ogh is only 15. If you are run down by an Ogh as a Khur, its because you messed up.

15 stamina gives you 4 seconds of sprint. 8 units/second speed difference means that, if both run in a straight line, khur/khur will gain a distance of approx. 700 units before he runs out of stamina. 700 units is a distance that ogh passes in less than 2 seconds. Ogh also regenerates stamina faster because regen depends on total stamina pool, so he'll probably have around 20 stamina left, not 15.

Now, the situation is of course unrealistic and doesn't account for initial distance, rocks, initial staminas etc, but you get the idea. I don't see how these 2% are "significant" enough.

Edit: ah yes, by the time the chase is over, ogh will be at full health from bandages, pipe, maybe pots too of course, even if he started with 1 hp.

 

[Moored]

15 stamina gives you 4 seconds of sprint. 8 units/second speed difference means that, if both run in a straight line, khur/khur will gain a distance of approx. 700 units before he runs out of stamina. 700 units is a distance that ogh passes in less than 2 seconds. Ogh also regenerates stamina faster because regen depends on total stamina pool, so he'll probably have around 20 stamina left, not 15.

Now, the situation is of course unrealistic and doesn't account for initial distance, rocks, initial staminas etc, but you get the idea. I don't see how these 2% are "significant" enough.

Edit: ah yes, by the time the chase is over, ogh will be at full health from bandages, pipe, maybe pots too of course, even if he started with 1 hp.

I like your approach, however, like you said that situation is not realistic, but ill humor you. The 15-20 stamina the Ogh has after the Khur has run out of stam will be used to to close the distance gained by the Khur + initial distance separating the two, all the while the Khur is regaining stam. Best case scenario is the Ogh has enough stam to get off one attack, that will likely be blocked and then the Ogh is out of stam and the Khur can run away, with a speed AND stamina advantage. Your argument would be more valid if the stamina disparity was 50+, but even then, it takes stamina to do damage, and it takes less stam to block than it does to attack so its really only a matter of time before the Khur gets away.

Khurites are unique in that they are fast, have a large stamina pool and a ~23% damage bonus. None that hit harder are faster. The only characters that can catch a Khur are ones that are at a significant melee disadvantage. I personally think they are ok when it comes to balance. Using speed advantage effectively is difficult, but it is extremely powerful.