Punishing the Innocent for the Exploits of the Guilty

[Sally]

When a group of people level to max mastery in a day; how do you think everyone else in the game feels when you take that away, and leave us to grind away at normal tasks? No compensation. No reward. No punishment.

You come in the game, punish everyone else, and let the people who exploited, YES, exploited (which i'll prove to you, by definition), and then act like everything is back to normal; when they got a MASSIVE advantage, and have essentially delegitimized the playing field of the sandbox; and the fresh start.. Like, they skipped to the endgame in an instant guys.. You can't just brush that under the rug.

Also, to say there was no "bug"; well, when you leave the Akrep task on a permanent loop; it may not be a "bug", but obviously it shouldn't work like that, and that was an obvious oversight.

I can prove to you, by definition, this was an exploit; barring ONE instance (which near certainly did not occur)

Here is the definition of "exploit": To treat unfairly: To selfishly or unethically take advantage of a person, group, or situation for profit or gain.

In the context of gaming: "No, exploits do not have to be bugs or glitches. While many exploits rely on unintended software defects, an exploit can also be achieved by using fully intended game mechanics in unanticipated ways to gain an unfair advantage"

So, how do i prove it is unfair? Well, they got to max veterancy in a day. Now, if i'm not mistaken, and i could be wrong.. Word on the street is that Henrik said levelling to max mastery should take roughly a year....

A YEAR.

Do you think they really thought it was supposed to be this way? If not, it is an exploit. There are no buts about it. You didn't mean for it to be that way, it is factually an exploit. They exploited the situation for their own gain; they knew it was unfair, as in, their characters in Sarducca are now ahead of their Myrland variants in a day; i'm pretty sure they noticed it.. My god, they even self reported it after using it. That PROVES they knew it was broken, but they used it anyway...

It IS an exploit.

We're all in the game now, wondering why they got to MASSIVELY save their time doing the boring grind of completing our build; whilst making a large amount of gold, and we have to take the substantially longer route there. Like, it'll take weeks.. What they did in a day will take weeks/months for everyone else.

EITHER LEAVE IT THE WAY IT WAS, OR PUNISH THEM. Anything else is PUNISHING your players who DID NOT EXPLOIT.

Don't take my word for it? What does the AI say?

The prompt i entered, the only prompt in the entire chat: "Would this situation constitute as unfairness and/or exploitation? A group of players found an area of the map on a sandbox RPG; here, they could spam out a task to get to max level in a day. This task was then removed from the game; so nobody else could use it, as it was unintended design. Would this class as unfairness or an exploit?"

The answer?

"Based on your description, it would generally be considered an exploit that resulted in an unfair advantage.


Here's why:

• It was unintended. The fact that the developers removed the task because it wasn't intended strongly suggests it was an exploit rather than a legitimate game mechanic.
• It provided disproportionate progression. Reaching max level in a single day by repeatedly spamming one task is far outside the normal progression expected in most RPGs.
• It was no longer available to later players. Once the task was removed, new players couldn't obtain the same benefit, creating an uneven playing field between those who used it and those who didn't.

That said, there are a few ways people use these terms:

• Exploit: Using an unintended mechanic or oversight to gain an advantage. Based on your description, this fits well.
• Unfairness: A broader concept. The exploit created an unfair situation because only some players benefited before it was patched.

Whether the players themselves did anything "wrong" depends on additional context:

• If they simply discovered it and used it without realizing it was unintended, some communities would view that more leniently.
• If they knowingly abused it because they recognized it was unfair, many games would consider that exploit abuse, even if the developers ultimately chose only to patch it.

So the clearest characterization is:

The mechanic itself was an exploit, and the players who used it gained an unfair advantage over everyone who played after it was removed.

The unfairness comes from the unequal opportunity; the exploit is the unintended game behavior that created that inequality."

There you have it. It all hinges on if they knew they were exploiting; and let's be real? How could you not? You've overtaken your Myrland alt in a day, and you're acting like you didn't know it was unintended design when you SELF REPORTED after using it to get to max veterancy? Come on guys.

You need to find a way of properly compensating players who did not exploit. It will have to be a huge compensation too, when factoring in the time they saved.

 

[Jackdstripper]

Same SV as always. Deny any exploit was present and hide their head under the sand.

A reputable company would roll back servers, or at least remove the duped gold and delete the characters that used the exploit.
But SV is too afraid of losing the few people that came back to the game to punish anyone. Better to just deny and cover up.

this is why nobody plays this game. This company is a joke.

 

[Locke]

They might aswell open the bridge already, we now have players in Sarducaa with 100 mastery and a gazillion gold from "legit" tasks...
What can you expect from low IQ game designers anyway.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

For context:

Source: https://discord.com/channels/345493247931711488/913143909432041592/1526268893679583263
**Clarification Regarding Sarducaa Tasks**

We have completed our review of the recently reported Sarducaa task locations.

No cheating, instant-respawn exploit, spawn manipulation, or other technical abuse was found. The task mechanics, group credit, distance requirements, respawns, and turn-in process all functioned as designed.

We also investigated reports claiming that normal Akreps could be used to complete Giant Akrep tasks. This is not the case. We have verified this multiple times: only Giant Akreps provide progress toward Giant Akrep tasks.

The issue identified was one of balance. At two locations, the short travel distance and reward values allowed tasks to be completed and repeated considerably faster than intended, particularly when many players were active in the area.

The affected NPCs have therefore been temporarily disabled. The tasks will be rebalanced and re-enabled in an upcoming patch.

No players or guilds will be punished for this. Players used normal, openly available game systems and did not manipulate or bypass any mechanics.

We continuously review task completion and reward data to identify unusual patterns. Should the data indicate an actual exploit, manipulation, or other rule violation, we will investigate and take appropriate action.

We appreciate all reports from the community. They help us identify both potential cheating and balance issues, allowing us to maintain a fair and secure game environment.

 

[Jackdstripper]

Absolute bs. They admit that those tasks were not working as intended, to the point where they had to be disabled. Obviously a broken mechanic that was abused instead of reported. At minimum they should roll back servers, especially that early into a fresh server start.
To gain hundreds of mastery points in mare hours is obviously a broken mechanic.

Every exploit is simply a "broken mechanic" that players discover and use knowing full well thats not how its supposed to work.

Absolute zero acountability by SV for anyone including themselves. Its just an "Oopsies, we fucked up. Nobody will be punished, except all those people that didnt use the exploit as they now have to deal with the huge inbalance we have created. We could fix this but we'd rather not. If in the future you find a broken mechanic, feel free to use it and not report it. Its not your fault we are bad at coding. Cheerios."

 

[Iloros]

When a group of people level to max mastery in a day; how do you think everyone else in the game feels when you take that away, and leave us to grind away at normal tasks? No compensation. No reward. No punishment.

You come in the game, punish everyone else, and let the people who exploited, YES, exploited (which i'll prove to you, by definition), and then act like everything is back to normal; when they got a MASSIVE advantage, and have essentially delegitimized the playing field of the sandbox; and the fresh start.. Like, they skipped to the endgame in an instant guys.. You can't just brush that under the rug.

Also, to say there was no "bug"; well, when you leave the Akrep task on a permanent loop; it may not be a "bug", but obviously it shouldn't work like that, and that was an obvious oversight.

I can prove to you, by definition, this was an exploit; barring ONE instance (which near certainly did not occur)

Here is the definition of "exploit": To treat unfairly: To selfishly or unethically take advantage of a person, group, or situation for profit or gain.

In the context of gaming: "No, exploits do not have to be bugs or glitches. While many exploits rely on unintended software defects, an exploit can also be achieved by using fully intended game mechanics in unanticipated ways to gain an unfair advantage"

So, how do i prove it is unfair? Well, they got to max veterancy in a day. Now, if i'm not mistaken, and i could be wrong.. Word on the street is that Henrik said levelling to max mastery should take roughly a year....

A YEAR.

Do you think they really thought it was supposed to be this way? If not, it is an exploit. There are no buts about it. You didn't mean for it to be that way, it is factually an exploit. They exploited the situation for their own gain; they knew it was unfair, as in, their characters in Sarducca are now ahead of their Myrland variants in a day; i'm pretty sure they noticed it.. My god, they even self reported it after using it. That PROVES they knew it was broken, but they used it anyway...

It IS an exploit.

We're all in the game now, wondering why they got to MASSIVELY save their time doing the boring grind of completing our build; whilst making a large amount of gold, and we have to take the substantially longer route there. Like, it'll take weeks.. What they did in a day will take weeks/months for everyone else.

EITHER LEAVE IT THE WAY IT WAS, OR PUNISH THEM. Anything else is PUNISHING your players who DID NOT EXPLOIT.

Don't take my word for it? What does the AI say?

The prompt i entered, the only prompt in the entire chat: "Would this situation constitute as unfairness and/or exploitation? A group of players found an area of the map on a sandbox RPG; here, they could spam out a task to get to max level in a day. This task was then removed from the game; so nobody else could use it, as it was unintended design. Would this class as unfairness or an exploit?"

The answer?

"Based on your description, it would generally be considered an exploit that resulted in an unfair advantage.


Here's why:

• It was unintended. The fact that the developers removed the task because it wasn't intended strongly suggests it was an exploit rather than a legitimate game mechanic.
• It provided disproportionate progression. Reaching max level in a single day by repeatedly spamming one task is far outside the normal progression expected in most RPGs.
• It was no longer available to later players. Once the task was removed, new players couldn't obtain the same benefit, creating an uneven playing field between those who used it and those who didn't.

That said, there are a few ways people use these terms:

• Exploit: Using an unintended mechanic or oversight to gain an advantage. Based on your description, this fits well.
• Unfairness: A broader concept. The exploit created an unfair situation because only some players benefited before it was patched.

Whether the players themselves did anything "wrong" depends on additional context:

• If they simply discovered it and used it without realizing it was unintended, some communities would view that more leniently.
• If they knowingly abused it because they recognized it was unfair, many games would consider that exploit abuse, even if the developers ultimately chose only to patch it.

So the clearest characterization is:




The unfairness comes from the unequal opportunity; the exploit is the unintended game behavior that created that inequality."

There you have it. It all hinges on if they knew they were exploiting; and let's be real? How could you not? You've overtaken your Myrland alt in a day, and you're acting like you didn't know it was unintended design when you SELF REPORTED after using it to get to max veterancy? Come on guys.

You need to find a way of properly compensating players who did not exploit. It will have to be a huge compensation too, when factoring in the time they saved.

Man Im not even with OS and they played with Wigsplit/cheaters now Reformed and theystill play with them but there is a huge issue in your argument.

They did not level to max mastery, they leveled to 80ish mastery, going from 80 to 110 mastery takes like 20x more grind than going from 0 clade to 80 mastery.

And that 1 year thing was for average player people had 100ish mastery firstmonth on Myrland too (after mastery came out obviously) Tukh I remember had 100ish first month.

They are mastery 80, Im mastery 52 rn and Ill be 80 in a week you guys truly are making an elephant out of a mouse and focusing on the wronf thing lol

These people played for like a year on Myrland and still do sometimes with a group of like 10-15 ragehackers some of which are confirmed permabanned. And now we are gonna ignore all the actual bad stuff to hyperfocus on I mean them literally doing tasks Im sorry lol.

Peoples heart is in the right place and they carry tons id bias from Myrland where OS and JA played with ragehackers the entire time and prob some members did some of that themselves, but cmon.

However I will say this depending on what the actual exp per hour of that task since noone wants fo disclose details I think they should have revertex some of their mastery if task gave like 15000 exp per hour which I doubt and btw youd need 45k exp per hour for 72 hours straight to get to 110 mastery none of them and noone on Sarducca is 110 mastery yet.

End of the day this one truly is a Starvaults fault and I would 100% do the same as OS did.

I see no symetry breaker in doing op task or even borderline broken task to gain advantage and playing a borderline broken build to gain advantage game isnt intended to be that unfair yet Alvarins literally instawin vs non Alvarins rn, so should we permaban Alvarin players because they do actually abuse broken in game mechanics? There was 0 exploiting though definitions are subjective and may vary.

Party system is also broken asf and 100 people can farm a single mob for task now 20 groups all of 5 people doing 5% dmg each group = 1 mob that would give 5 gold and 120 clade lets say gives 500 g snd 12000 total clade..... pro zerg mechanics.

At some extend I expect a rollback but 80 mastery aint all that and yi dou t they will do it, if some of them got actual 100+ mastery and I am wrong they should 100% lose some exp because thats a big big difference.

I would like you to name the trait or set of traits present in doing tasking that are op which makes them an exploit that isnt present in playing an op class and getting advantage from that.

 

[Sally]

Man Im not even with OS and they played with Wigsplit/cheaters now Reformed and theystill play with them but there is a huge issue in your argument.

They did not level to max mastery, they leveled to 80ish mastery, going from 80 to 110 mastery takes like 20x more grind than going from 0 clade to 80 mastery.

And that 1 year thing was for average player people had 100ish mastery firstmonth on Myrland too (after mastery came out obviously) Tukh I remember had 100ish first month.

They are mastery 80, Im mastery 52 rn and Ill be 80 in a week you guys truly are making an elephant out of a mouse and focusing on the wronf thing lol

These people played for like a year on Myrland and still do sometimes with a group of like 10-15 ragehackers some of which are confirmed permabanned. And now we are gonna ignore all the actual bad stuff to hyperfocus on I mean them literally doing tasks Im sorry lol.

Peoples heart is in the right place and they carry tons id bias from Myrland where OS and JA played with ragehackers the entire time and prob some members did some of that themselves, but cmon.

However I will say this depending on what the actual exp per hour of that task since noone wants fo disclose details I think they should have revertex some of their mastery if task gave like 15000 exp per hour which I doubt and btw youd need 45k exp per hour for 72 hours straight to get to 110 mastery none of them and noone on Sarducca is 110 mastery yet.

End of the day this one truly is a Starvaults fault and I would 100% do the same as OS did.

I see no symetry breaker in doing op task or even borderline broken task to gain advantage and playing a borderline broken build to gain advantage game isnt intended to be that unfair yet Alvarins literally instawin vs non Alvarins rn, so should we permaban Alvarin players because they do actually abuse broken in game mechanics? There was 0 exploiting though definitions are subjective and may vary.

Party system is also broken asf and 100 people can farm a single mob for task now 20 groups all of 5 people doing 5% dmg each group = 1 mob that would give 5 gold and 120 clade lets say gives 500 g snd 12000 total clade..... pro zerg mechanics.

At some extend I expect a rollback but 80 mastery aint all that and yi dou t they will do it, if some of them got actual 100+ mastery and I am wrong they should 100% lose some exp because thats a big big difference.

I would like you to name the trait or set of traits present in doing tasking that are op which makes them an exploit that isnt present in playing an op class and getting advantage from that.

After losing every argument to me, i expect you to try and disagree with everything i say out of spite. Your constant attempt to restore a stung ego.

"A huge issue with your argument".

Okay, what is the CORE of my argument?

That people have saved a substantial amount of time using a method that is no longer available to the rest of us; and so it punishes people who did not exploit.

You picking some superficial part of the argument, my choice to say "max mastery", is not the core of the argument being made. It is a mere choice of phrasing/wording; it was shorthand. There are people who i know got OVER 100 mastery using this method. Most builds won't need or gain anything that matters to their build at 100 mastery. Second, you can't say NO ONE got to max mastery with this method, since you don't know everyone who used it; i also can't definitively claim someone did. So why say it?

If someone got OVER 100 mastery, is it plausible someone could get to max mastery? Yes, very much so. It is supposedly only 300,000 glory from 100 to 110. When you're getting tens of thousands of glory every hour, you're moving at a pace that is substantially faster than what is achievable anywhere else in the game.

So, because it becomes plausible, i make the claim "max mastery".

So, to be more accurate to what i certainly know, i could've said "basically max mastery". But it was mere shorthand; a superficial detail. As it was plausible, possible, to get to max mastery, i said it that way.

Second, 100 mastery is more than enough to "complete" a build for the majority of builds. I mean, you're just getting mastery for show at that point. So, "max mastery" is really the max you need to complete the core of your build.; so, it may as well be max mastery for most people.

Those are the two reasons i chose to word it that way. Is that a "huge issue" with my argument? No. It is a near irrelevant detail to the core argument; and so, you are wrong to make that claim.

Also, you are bad with numbers, and have been caught several times just pulling them out of the air. So, someone should check your claim there, as i'm almost 100% certain it is wrong, as you just lie to support your points constanty. Second:

Akreps in pash give roughly 8000 in an hour; and they're OUTSIDE of town. The akreps used in the exploit were basically inside the town. So, no travel time; in a group, where they're dying instantly, and akreps near instantly respawn, you can see they could get ridiculous amounts of glory. Then factor in the task looped on akreps basically everytime.

I don't know who tricked you into thinking they were not over 100 mastery, i'm not sure where you're pulling this false claim from.

So, to your next point:

"Oh, it'll only take a couple of weeks! It's nothing".

Yes, for unshowered creatures who play the game 24/7 focusing on grinding their levels up; or elementalists. It still doesn't change the fact that one group had a substantially easier climb to the top of the mountain than others, using an option that is no longer available.

That is objectively unfair.

It makes the game harder for everyone else in TWO ways:

A) We no longer have the easier method available
B) We're now in a world with people who have a substantial advantage over us.

So, why is it a big deal to people? Because for playing the game fairly, we've now been punished because of people who played unfairly.

Now, you want to argue it isn't an exploit? I've already proven, by definition, it is an exploit. So, there is no way around that, it doesn't matter what the GMs say. I have proven it in the original post. So there is no debating that fact.

The final point:

Most people aren't going to need 100 mastery, 80 is usually more than enough; their need for it will usually end before then; the core issue is that people got to essentially skip the levelling grind that the rest of us will have to suffer through; some people got to over 100 mastery doing it; which will be a MASSIVE grind for everyone else now.

 

[Iloros]

After losing every argument to me, i expect you to try and disagree with everything i say out of spite. Your constant attempt to restore a stung ego.

"A huge issue with your argument".

Okay, what is the CORE of my argument?

That people have saved a substantial amount of time using a method that is no longer available to the rest of us; and so it punishes people who did not exploit.

You picking some superficial part of the argument, my choice to say "max mastery", is not the core of the argument being made. It is a mere choice of phrasing/wording; it was shorthand. There are people who i know got OVER 100 mastery using this method. Most builds won't need or gain anything that matters to their build at 100 mastery. Second, you can't say NO ONE got to max mastery with this method, since you don't know everyone who used it; i also can't definitively claim someone did. So why say it?

If someone got OVER 100 mastery, is it plausible someone could get to max mastery? Yes, very much so.

So, because it becomes plausible, i make the claim "max mastery".

So, to be more accurate to what i certainly know, i could've said "basically max mastery". But it was mere shorthand; a superficial detail. As it was plausible, possible, to get to max mastery, i said it that way.

Second, 100 mastery is more than enough to "complete" a build for the majority of builds. I mean, you're just getting mastery for show at that point. So, "max mastery" is really the max you need to complete the core of your build.; so, it may as well be max mastery for most people.

Those are the two reasons i chose to word it that way. Is that a "huge issue" with my argument? No. It is a near irrelevant detail to the core argument; and so, you are wrong to make that claim.

Also, you are bad with numbers, and have been caught several times just pulling them out of the air. So, someone should check your claim there, as i'm almost 100% certain it is wrong, as you just lie to support your points constanty. Second:

Akreps in pash give roughly 8000 in an hour; and they're OUTSIDE of town. The akreps used in the exploit were basically inside the town. So, no travel time; in a group, where they're dying instantly, and akreps near instantly respawn, you can see they could get ridiculous amounts of glory. Then factor in the task looped on akreps basically everytime.

I don't know who tricked you into thinking they were not over 100 mastery, i'm not sure where you're pulling this false claim from.

So, to your next point:

"Oh, it'll only take a couple of weeks! It's nothing".

Yes, for unshowered creatures who play the game 24/7 focusing on grinding their levels up; or elementalists. It still doesn't change the fact that one group had a substantially easier climb to the top of the mountain than others, using an option that is no longer available.

That is objectively unfair.

It makes the game harder for everyone else in TWO ways:

A) We no longer have the easier method available
B) We're now in a world with people who have a substantial advantage over us.

So, why is it a big deal to people? Because for playing the game fairly, we've now been punished because of people who played unfairly.

Now, you want to argue it isn't an exploit? I've already proven, by definition, it is an exploit. So, there is no way around that, it doesn't matter what the GMs say. I have proven it in the original post. So there is no debating that fact.

The final point:

Most people aren't going to need 100 mastery, 80 is usually more than enough; their need for it will usually end before then; the core issue is that people got to essentially skip the levelling grind that the rest of us will have to suffer through; some people got to over 100 mastery doing it; which will be a MASSIVE grind for everyone else now.

I havent lost a single argument, that's why you keep quitting on every post because you are just getting embarassed. However on this topic I don't wanna create division so ease with the insults.

If someone got to over 100 its not plausible that anyone got max because 100-110 is 10x more grind than 0-100 so no someone barely getting 100 doesnt mean some dude overperformed 10x. Please give up on the absurd points it makes you look like a complete joke not worth talking to. 110 mastery requires millions of exp.

First 100 was hit within a month 110 was hit within half a year. 107-109 alone is over a million exp.

Its not for the people who play all day either I have been playing but not that much maybe slightly above average and im 53 mastery half the daye I wasnt even farming glory.

And again, my main counterpoint really is how is playing an OP class such as MA/Alvarin not literally the same thing as doing op tasks or a hypothetically even more OP class.

You are gaining an extreme advantage you were never supposed to have. Its permanent. Its not intended for 1 class to be that OP its just a dev mistake. I have way higher chance of beating a fatmage or another thursar or oghmir with 100 mastery than I do beating a mastery 15 Alvarin archerand so does every non Alvarin.

So please tell me trait of one not present in another that makes one problematic but not the other one.


This above is the main task you need to do to defend your position unless you are willing to bite the bullet and say playing an OP build is an exploit.

Again OS was playing with cheaters and is dirty handed but this "exploit" and how much people are adamant about it is embarassing I see no argument for it. Should they have reduced mastery in a perfect world? Yes. But they should also take your stuff if you are an Alvarin that cant ever lose an interaction and hotfix thek but most people wont agree with that one coz people just cherry pick.

End of the day its devs fault for adding an op task or op buils or whatwver it is thats OP I would have 100% farmed ir and 100% been mad if they reduced my mastery and most of you would too, thats the truth.

 

[Sally]

I havent lost a single argument, that's why you keep quitting on every post because you are just getting embarassed. However on this topic I don't wanna create division so ease with the insults.

If someone got to over 100 its not plausible that anyone got max because 100-110 is 10x more grind than 0-100 so no someone barely getting 100 doesnt mean some dude overperformed 10x. Please give up on the absurd points it makes you look like a complete joke not worth talking to. 110 mastery requires millions of exp.

First 100 was hit within a month 110 was hit within half a year. 107-109 alone is over a million exp.

Its not for the people who play all day either I have been playing but not that much maybe slightly above average and im 53 mastery half the daye I wasnt even farming glory.

And again, my main counterpoint really is how is playing an OP class such as MA/Alvarin not literally the same thing as doing op tasks or a hypothetically even more OP class.

You are gaining an extreme advantage you were never supposed to have. Its permanent. Its not intended for 1 class to be that OP its just a dev mistake. I have way higher chance of beating a fatmage or another thursar or oghmir with 100 mastery than I do beating a mastery 15 Alvarin archerand so does every non Alvarin.

So please tell me trait of one not present in another that makes one problematic but not the other one.


This above is the main task you need to do to defend your position unless you are willing to bite the bullet and say playing an OP build is an exploit.

Again OS was playing with cheaters and is dirty handed but this "exploit" and how much people are adamant about it is embarassing I see no argument for it. Should they have reduced mastery in a perfect world? Yes. But they should also take your stuff if you are an Alvarin that cant ever lose an interaction and hotfix thek but most people wont agree with that one coz people just cherry pick.

End of the day its devs fault for adding an op task or op buils or whatwver it is thats OP I would have 100% farmed ir and 100% been mad if they reduced my mastery and most of you would too, thats the truth.

You've lost every argument.

You quite literally try to gaslight what happened in the past. It is really obnoxious having to correct your bad arguments on a loop, because no new information can be taken in after you've decided what you think is right.

You lie about the past, pull lies out of the air, all to support whatever you've decided is right, based solely on your anecdotal experiences.

NO not millions of glory, another lie. As far as i can tell, it is only just over a million to get to 110 mastery. The stretch between 100 and 110 supposedly being 300,000 glory. Which, yes, seems a lot, until you realize:

They were making tens of thousands of glory per hour.

About alvarins? Well, they're intended. SV infact recently nerfed them, so they looked at them, decided they're fine. That's how it is different.

This task issue? This was not intended. SV have already admitted that.

Also, Alvarins aren't as strong as you always portray them; and i'd say their only issue as a race is that they have the ability to remove hiding completely within a large radius. Which takes a whole dimension out of the game (the ability to hide).

Second, as i've explained many, MANY times before.. Mobility alone isn't what makes alvarins or MAs strong, but their ability to instantly spam heal their health, and their horse's health back to full in seconds, in combat, from safety, and re-engage right after. It is actually a reset issue, caused by healing.

 

[Iloros]

You've lost every argument.

You quite literally try to gaslight what happened in the past. It is really obnoxious having to correct your bad arguments on a loop, because no new information can be taken in after you've decided what you think is right.

You lie about the past, pull lies out of the air, all to support whatever you've decided is right, based solely on your anecdotal experiences.

NO not millions of glory, another lie. As far as i can tell, it is only just over a million to get to 110 mastery. The stretch between 100 and 110 supposedly being 300,000 glory. Which, yes, seems a lot, until you realize:

They were making tens of thousands of glory per hour.

About alvarins? Well, they're intended. SV infact recently nerfed them, so they looked at them, decided they're fine. That's how it is different.

This task issue? This was not intended. SV have already admitted that.

Also, Alvarins aren't as strong as you always portray them; and i'd say their only issue as a race is that they have the ability to remove hiding completely within a large radius. Which takes a whole dimension out of the game (the ability to hide).

Second, as i've explained many, MANY times before.. Mobility alone isn't what makes alvarins or MAs strong, but their ability to instantly spam heal their health, and their horse's health back to full in seconds, in combat, from safety, and re-engage right after. It is actually a reset issue, caused by healing.

You are full on projecting. I havent lost any argument you are just claiming false victories and leaving after doging every main point.


Ill keep it short and concise because you like spamming irrelevant nonsense to run away from the main point.

I am mastery 140 100-110 is not close to 300k you are complete and utter liar. 108-109 alone is 600k... you are just ying on repeat my dude.

People can read our other posts on mobility and Alvarins you are also lying and trying to change the narrative. Alvarins are op and overstat its not mobility being inherently better than other stats.

You have yet to answer the main question/task

Name the trait present in doing op tasks for advantage that makes it an exploit that isnt present in playing an op class for advantage ans doesnt make that an exploit, there isnt one unless you wanna argue its a treshold position in which case I will say that those tasks are not that substantially better than other ways of tasking compared to a specific race or build or a set of builds beinf than others.

You cant answer this its not an exploit, nobody got even close to max mastery, you are lying in every claim you make, no wonder everyone else just brushes you off like a complete irrelevance you are. 300k from 100 to 110 is crazy and you said in the other post for armor pierce to overshadow 4% dmg difference youd need to be in armor better than divinium LOL what a tool.

 

[Sally]

You are full on projecting. I havent lost any argument you are just claiming false victories and leaving after doging every main point.


Ill keep it short and concise because you like spamming irrelevant nonsense to run away from the main point.

I am mastery 140 100-110 is not close to 300k you are complete and utter liar. 108-109 alone is 600k... you are just ying on repeat my dude.

People can read our other posts on mobility and Alvarins you are also lying and trying to change the narrative. Alvarins are op and overstat its not mobility being inherently better than other stats.

You have yet to answer the main question/task

Name the trait present in doing op tasks for advantage that makes it an exploit that isnt present in playing an op class for advantage ans doesnt make that an exploit, there isnt one unless you wanna argue its a treshold position in which case I will say that those tasks are not that substantially better than other ways of tasking compared to a specific race or build or a set of builds beinf than others.

You cant answer this its not an exploit, nobody got even close to max mastery, you are lying in every claim you make, no wonder everyone else just brushes you off like a complete irrelevance you are. 300k from 100 to 110 is crazy and you said in the other post for armor pierce to overshadow 4% dmg difference youd need to be in armor better than divinium LOL what a tool.

It's like you just try to repeat back my criticisms of your style of arguing.

Everytime you are caught out, you lie and roleplay that you were never proven wrong.

You claiming i am claiming false victories is gaslighting, here are just some of the many arguments you've lost to me:

1. You said most people played alvarins, without evidence. I asked you for evidence, you provided none. Maybe most do play them. I ask you where you get your information? Anecdotal. Everytime. I explained to you that using anecdotal evidence to explain why alvarins are overpowered is not a "strong" argument that should NOT be taken seriously; for TWO reasons:

A) You don't actually know most people are playing alvarins definitively.
B) Even if most people play alvarins, it may not be because they're "overpowered".

I explained to you that there are better ways to show they might be too strong. But no, you think you know best through your narrow lens of playing the slowest thursar.

2. You argued that the alvarin buff was up near all the time, or only down for a few seconds. When looking at the numbers, i showed it was several minutes before it could be used again.

3. You argued that the armor penetration provided by said buff puts it ABOVE a thursar, but when going over the numbers, having more strength ultimately provides more benefit against armor that is a flat reduction. Meaning: thursars are pretty much always the better archers, barring a self sabotaging thursar who purposely takes no strength or something.

4. Our most common argument is me explaining to you, over and over and over again: Mobility is not the problem with alvarins, it is HEALING. Why?

Is it a coincidence that both MAs and Alvarins feel really strong? HMMM, what is it they BOTH have.. Well, yes, they move fast. But who is threatened by a mounted archer who cannot heal their horse? Or an alvarin that cannot reset?

Foot archers laugh at mounted archers without healing.

Okay, alvarins run faster, which if fine, they're inferior in melee combat; that is the downside. Where their speed becomes broken, is when they can reset until they win the fight. Meaning, they run, heal, comeback. Run, heal, comeback. Until eventually, they win. If they couldn't spam combat heal, or could only slowly heal WHILST stationary, guess what? They'd lose. Run. And that would be the end. They're gone. They have to run away and slowly regain their health. Upon which, you have the area to yourself; or can leave yourself.

Mobility becomes tanking when combined with spam combat healing. So their one advantage becomes substantially greater just due to moving faster.

Take away spam healing; you turn alvarins into people who can just escape, not reset endlessly; NOT tank. THAT is fair. What they currently can do with mobility? Is not.

WHY is removing their mobility NOT the solution? WHY is it healing? Because, if you take away their mobility, any special benefit a person gains from playing the race is gone. They just become absolutely terrible compared to every other race, if their characteristic trait of the race, their speed, provides no benefit.

You want to be able to catch alvarins in combat as a thursar; without even thinking about the fact that: if that were possible, there would be no reason or benefit to playing alvarin at all.

It'd be like if i said: "Oh, thursars should do the same melee damage as everyone else". Which then just make them worse versions of other clades that are already in the game.

Your problem has always been healing; but you keep coming up with excuses not to see that angle as valid; the dumbest one being "It would take too much effort for SV to do that!".

They could quite literally just put a diminishing returns debuff on self healing, and it would resolve the issue. For starters, i would cut self healing with lesser/greater heal in half, and have it half for every following use, until like, three times, and then it provides no healing for several minutes. Same with bandages/potions. That is a really lazy solution to the problem; and i can come up with 100 more ways.


Point being, don't try to lie about your lost arguments, because i will just go over them again.

You're literally reduced to trying to nitpick superficial non-core elements of my arguments at this point. What next? Are you going to point out a typo, and pretend that is a lost argument?

 

[Iloros]

It's like you just try to repeat back my criticisms of your style of arguing.

Everytime you are caught out, you lie and roleplay that you were never proven wrong.

You claiming i am claiming false victories is gaslighting, here are just some of the many arguments you've lost to me:

1. You said most people played alvarins, without evidence. I asked you for evidence, you provided none. Maybe most do play them. I ask you where you get your information? Anecdotal. Everytime. I explained to you that using anecdotal evidence to explain why alvarins are overpowered is not a "strong" argument that should NOT be taken seriously; for TWO reasons:

A) You don't actually know most people are playing alvarins definitively.
B) Even if most people play alvarins, it may not be because they're "overpowered".

I explained to you that there are better ways to show they might be too strong. But no, you think you know best through your narrow lens of playing the slowest thursar.

2. You argued that the alvarin buff was up near all the time, or only down for a few seconds. When looking at the numbers, i showed it was several minutes before it could be used again.

3. You argued that the armor penetration provided by said buff puts it ABOVE a thursar, but when going over the numbers, having more strength ultimately provides more benefit against armor that is a flat reduction. Meaning: thursars are pretty much always the better archers, barring a self sabotaging thursar who purposely takes no strength or something.

4. Our most common argument is me explaining to you, over and over and over again: Mobility is not the problem with alvarins, it is HEALING. Why?

Is it a coincidence that both MAs and Alvarins feel really strong? HMMM, what is it they BOTH have.. Well, yes, they move fast. But who is threatened by a mounted archer who cannot heal their horse? Or an alvarin that cannot reset?

Foot archers laugh at mounted archers without healing.

Okay, alvarins run faster, which if fine, they're inferior in melee combat; that is the downside. Where their speed becomes broken, is when they can reset until they win the fight. Meaning, they run, heal, comeback. Run, heal, comeback. Until eventually, they win. If they couldn't spam combat heal, or could only slowly heal WHILST stationary, guess what? They'd lose. Run. And that would be the end. They're gone. They have to run away and slowly regain their health. Upon which, you have the area to yourself; or can leave yourself.

Mobility becomes tanking when combined with spam combat healing. So their one advantage becomes substantially greater just due to moving faster.

Take away spam healing; you turn alvarins into people who can just escape, not reset endlessly; NOT tank. THAT is fair. What they currently can do with mobility? Is not.

WHY is removing their mobility NOT the solution? WHY is it healing? Because, if you take away their mobility, any special benefit a person gains from playing the race is gone. They just become absolutely terrible compared to every other race, if their characteristic trait of the race, their speed, provides no benefit.

You want to be able to catch alvarins in combat as a thursar; without even thinking about the fact that: if that were possible, there would be no reason or benefit to playing alvarin at all.

It'd be like if i said: "Oh, thursars should do the same melee damage as everyone else". Which then just make them worse versions of other clades that are already in the game.

Your problem has always been healing; but you keep coming up with excuses not to see that angle as valid; the dumbest one being "It would take too much effort for SV to do that!".

They could quite literally just put a diminishing returns debuff on self healing, and it would resolve the issue. For starters, i would cut self healing with lesser/greater heal in half, and have it half for every following use, until like, three times, and then it provides no healing for several minutes. Same with bandages/potions. That is a really lazy solution to the problem; and i can come up with 100 more ways.


Point being, don't try to lie about your lost arguments, because i will just go over them again.

You're literally reduced to trying to nitpick superficial non-core elements of my arguments at this point. What next? Are you going to point out a typo, and pretend that is a lost argument?

Nope, its literally you doing exactly what you accuse me of doing, you are full on projecting and a notorious liar in full denial. Very ugly trait.

Most people are playing Alvarins, all content of this game you can find proves it and there has been a poll recently askinh people what they picked for Sard and 50% of answers were Alvarin, go watch any mo2 video its majority Alvarin ask any vets they will agree, its obvious what the truth is.

2. I never said its down for just some seconds or up all the time, obvious lie noone thinks thaz LOL... Perma lie.

3. Completely false and embarassing claim. 5 str bonus on bows doesnt come close to 12% armor pierce. I explained the calculation in the other post you gully ignored it and quit speaking on that one coz you got embarassed and again this is another one of your lies noone believes becasue its absurd, noone thinks Thursars do more damage with bows than Armor piercing Alvarins thats nuts.

4. All races have healing and both Alvarin and MA also do bows, healing is OP but so are Alvarins separate from it, Alvarins would just bow you from range and you couldnt heal and die because they are way superior archers as I explained armor pierce + tiny hitbox + faster + same defense and barely lower HP.

But like again obviously healing should be nerfed thats a no brainer obvious take. Its 10x more mana efficient than damage. Would nerf other raced massively too zhpugh so Alvarins naturally being overstat and OP remain overstat and OP...

Read your last advice a few times. We both know you are the one lying and in denial and just repeating yourself while ignoring my main points.

There you go I as usual responded to every single thing you wrote, now you just have to

Name the trait from the post above and will repeat below:

What is it about doing op tasks for advantage that makes it an exploit that isnt present in playing an op character or a weapon which makes that fine?

Reminder of your lies in just this last conversation we had

1. 5 str > 12 armor pierce for bows
2. 300k from 100 to 110 mastery
3. Alvarins not most popular race
4. your IQ is high
5. You won anything, ever

 

[Sally]

Nope, its literally you doing exactly what you accuse me of doing, you are full on projecting and a notorious liar in full denial. Very ugly trait.

Most people are playing Alvarins, all content of this game you can find proves it and there has been a poll recently askinh people what they picked for Sard and 50% of answers were Alvarin, go watch any mo2 video its majority Alvarin ask any vets they will agree, its obvious what the truth is.

2. I never said its down for just some seconds or up all the time, obvious lie noone thinks thaz LOL... Perma lie.

3. Completely false and embarassing claim. 5 str bonus on bows doesnt come close to 12% armor pierce. I explained the calculation in the other post you gully ignored it and quit speaking on that one coz you got embarassed and again this is another one of your lies noone believes becasue its absurd, noone thinks Thursars do more damage with bows than Armor piercing Alvarins thats nuts.

4. All races have healing and both Alvarin and MA also do bows, healing is OP but so are Alvarins separate from it, Alvarins would just bow you from range and you couldnt heal and die because they are way superior archers as I explained armor pierce + tiny hitbox + faster + same defense and barely lower HP.

But like again obviously healing should be nerfed thats a no brainer obvious take. Its 10x more mana efficient than damage. Would nerf other raced massively too zhpugh so Alvarins naturally being overstat and OP remain overstat and OP...

Read your last advice a few times. We both know you are the one lying and in denial and just repeating yourself while ignoring my main points.

There you go I as usual responded to every single thing you wrote, now you just have to

Name the trait from the post above and will repeat below:

What is it about doing op tasks for advantage that makes it an exploit that isnt present in playing an op character or a weapon which makes that fine?

Reminder of your lies in just this last conversation we had

1. 5 str > 12 armor pierce for bows
2. 300k from 100 to 110 mastery
3. Alvarins not most popular race
4. your IQ is high
5. You won anything, ever

A) It's not 5 strength, as i didn't include archer's shoulder from mastery in the equation. the comparison is the max strength thursar, to the max strength alvarin with trinkets, including the BASE archers shoulder. I'm now going to provide the exact maths for who does more damage over the cooldown of runner's high.

Here is a chart showing the difference over the best possible cooldown available to runner's high. THIS is the actual damage difference over 1 cooldown cycle, based on the armor, the yellow being the average armor of someone in heavy; YES, this is just with +5 strength (including the archer's shoulder mastery), assuming one arrow is fired every 2 seconds; as you can see, the advantage is SUBSTANTIAL:


So when you complain about alvarin archery; when you're playing a thursar that is a melee specialist, and your bow is still FAR better overall, you can see why it is a really dumb argument. With armor pen, only against very high armor, does it become near even, for a very brief period of time. Here, you can see overall, it is still far better to be a thursar with a bow. AGAIN, remember, thursars are built to be melee specialists, and STILL have superior range damage by FAR. I don't want to hear complaints about alvarin bows, when thursars can kill people in two hits in melee.

B) Here is a screenshot showing it is infact NOT "millions" to get to max mastery, like you said, and that it doesn't become substantially hard to level until around 104-105 mastery. https://mortalonline2.com/forums/attachments/image-png.6372/ (( Now, you can see here, the last 5 levels of mastery is like, the majority of the mastery. So here, i said it was 300k, according to this char from 2 years ago, by wolfzeit, the challenge only begins for the last 5 levels; which is COMPLETELY against how you presented it. Now here, i'll also admit, it isn't 300k, but if you look at my wording, did i speak with absolute certainty on that? I said "as far as i can tell"; this was from a couple of google searches. This is now the most accurate take i have, after a more indepth look. The only way i'd be more certain is if SV came out and said it, and/or i checked it myself. So here, we were actually BOTH inaccurate, except, i never spoke with absolute certainty (and i'm still not); YOU did. So you are STILL in the wrong on this; especially given you claimed "millions"; and i said "just over 1 million"; you'll find, i'm closer to what is true, than you are. So, back to my original point, people are over 100 mastery, that is confirmed. Is 5 mastery a big deal? NO. Their builds will be complete long before then, so i say "max mastery", because it basically is. Is it basically max mastery? That's the claim. YES. Then the argument still stands, and they STILL have a substantial advantage.

C) You have no evidence of alvarin being the most popular race outside of your anecdotal experience, and even if they were, you don't know definitively know it is the case because they are objectively superior. The argument here is it is a BAD argument; THAT is the argument,i'm not trying to say it isn't true; you absolute idiot. READ. You just skim read like an idiot, and see what you want to see. READ.

D) My IQ is high, as proven by winning all these arguments AGAIN, easily. Very VERY easily.

E) You died to me when you ran back to Tindrem, and tried to pretend i attacked you with 10 people or something LOL; what a loser. Lost all the arguments, and lost ingame too. Pathetic.

 

[Iloros]

A) It's not 5 strength, as i didn't include archer's shoulder from mastery in the equation. the comparison is the max strength thursar, to the max strength alvarin with trinkets, including the BASE archers shoulder. I'm now going to provide the exact maths for who does more damage over the cooldown of runner's high.

Here is a chart showing the difference over the best possible cooldown available to runner's high. THIS is the actual damage difference over 1 cooldown cycle, based on the armor, the yellow being the average armor of someone in heavy; YES, this is just with +5 strength (including the archer's shoulder mastery), assuming one arrow is fired every 2 seconds; as you can see, the advantage is SUBSTANTIAL:

View attachment 6789
So when you complain about alvarin archery; when you're playing a thursar that is a melee specialist, and your bow is still FAR better overall, you can see why it is a really dumb argument. With armor pen, only against very high armor, does it become near even, for a very brief period of time. Here, you can see overall, it is still far better to be a thursar with a bow. AGAIN, remember, thursars are built to be melee specialists, and STILL have superior range damage by FAR. I don't want to hear complaints about alvarin bows, when thursars can kill people in two hits in melee.

B) Here is a screenshot showing it is infact NOT "millions" to get to max mastery, like you said, and that it doesn't become substantially hard to level until around 104-105 mastery. https://mortalonline2.com/forums/attachments/image-png.6372/ (( Now, you can see here, the last 5 levels of mastery is like, the majority of the mastery. So here, i said it was 300k, according to this char from 2 years ago, by wolfzeit, the challenge only begins for the last 5 levels; which is COMPLETELY against how you presented it. Now here, i'll also admit, it isn't 300k, but if you look at my wording, did i speak with absolute certainty on that? I said "as far as i can tell"; this was from a couple of google searches. This is now the most accurate take i have, after a more indepth look. The only way i'd be more certain is if SV came out and said it, and/or i checked it myself. So here, we were actually BOTH inaccurate, except, i never spoke with absolute certainty (and i'm still not); YOU did. So you are STILL in the wrong on this; especially given you claimed "millions"; and i said "just over 1 million"; you'll find, i'm closer to what is true, than you are. So, back to my original point, people are over 100 mastery, that is confirmed. Is 5 mastery a big deal? NO. Their builds will be complete long before then, so i say "max mastery", because it basically is. Is it basically max mastery? That's the claim. YES. Then the argument still stands, and they STILL have a substantial advantage.

C) You have no evidence of alvarin being the most popular race outside of your anecdotal experience, and even if they were, you don't know definitively know it is the case because they are objectively superior. The argument here is it is a BAD argument; THAT is the argument,i'm not trying to say it isn't true; you absolute idiot. READ. You just skim read like an idiot, and see what you want to see. READ.

D) My IQ is high, as proven by winning all these arguments AGAIN, easily. Very VERY easily.

E) You died to me when you ran back to Tindrem, and tried to pretend i attacked you with 10 people or something LOL; what a loser. Lost all the arguments, and lost ingame too. Pathetic.

Many many issues with the graph.

Wym all 76 arrows my g? How much dsmage are they doing 3 each? And the cooldown would be back up again. That graph is irrelevant TTK isnt 76 arrows lmao what an absurditx.

+5 str doesnt add 5 per arrow thats nuts???

Graph is irrelevant and unrealistic.

Arrows wouldnt even fire at the same pace because smaller str bows require less charge time and Alvarins use smaller str bows... Also abilities exist that let you spam way more arrows during armor pierce window and that extra DPS for the duration is enough to easily kill a person especially if you nerf healing.

Thursars obviously arent superior at range every archer is an Alvarin and armor pierce/them doing way more damage with bows for enough time to kill even multiple people is a big part of it.

And you are doing a calculation that isnt even right for armor pierce.

Nerfing healing would make this exact Alvarin archer build that outtrades you heavy for 30 seconds and has smaller hitbox on top an unbeatable build because how you counter it now is healing corners trying to outsustain or at least mitigate their ranged superiority not pull out a bow and shoot them when they have a smaller hitbox are faster can run away if they start losing and do more damage LOL.

Hypothetically if there was a character that did 30000 damage first hit of the fight and then 35 dmg every other hit and there was another character that did 36 dmg per hit, lets say everyone has 30000 hp, the guy doing 30000 dmg first hit is WAY stronger character that always wins, even though if we do a million hits the second character will do way more damage.

It is 5 strength idc what you did or didnt include.

You never said "just over one million" LOL another lie you said its 300k.

You said max mastery and I said not max mastery, that is all. Quit moving the goalpost after losing every time.

Alvarins are the most popular race, all forms of evidence that exist includinf surveys the fact they nerfed them after a survey, videos and all of community agrees its an obvious fsct you dont need a study on and its embarassing and dishonest to claim otherwise.

You never solo killed me and I never said it was a 10v1 either it was a 3v1 that you could not possibly lose because it was 3 guys shooting Thursar from 30 meters away in the open. Lie with 0 evidence you couldnt possibly kill me alone.

 

[Iloros]

A) It's not 5 strength, as i didn't include archer's shoulder from mastery in the equation. the comparison is the max strength thursar, to the max strength alvarin with trinkets, including the BASE archers shoulder. I'm now going to provide the exact maths for who does more damage over the cooldown of runner's high.

Here is a chart showing the difference over the best possible cooldown available to runner's high. THIS is the actual damage difference over 1 cooldown cycle, based on the armor, the yellow being the average armor of someone in heavy; YES, this is just with +5 strength (including the archer's shoulder mastery), assuming one arrow is fired every 2 seconds; as you can see, the advantage is SUBSTANTIAL:

View attachment 6789
So when you complain about alvarin archery; when you're playing a thursar that is a melee specialist, and your bow is still FAR better overall, you can see why it is a really dumb argument. With armor pen, only against very high armor, does it become near even, for a very brief period of time. Here, you can see overall, it is still far better to be a thursar with a bow. AGAIN, remember, thursars are built to be melee specialists, and STILL have superior range damage by FAR. I don't want to hear complaints about alvarin bows, when thursars can kill people in two hits in melee.

B) Here is a screenshot showing it is infact NOT "millions" to get to max mastery, like you said, and that it doesn't become substantially hard to level until around 104-105 mastery. https://mortalonline2.com/forums/attachments/image-png.6372/ (( Now, you can see here, the last 5 levels of mastery is like, the majority of the mastery. So here, i said it was 300k, according to this char from 2 years ago, by wolfzeit, the challenge only begins for the last 5 levels; which is COMPLETELY against how you presented it. Now here, i'll also admit, it isn't 300k, but if you look at my wording, did i speak with absolute certainty on that? I said "as far as i can tell"; this was from a couple of google searches. This is now the most accurate take i have, after a more indepth look. The only way i'd be more certain is if SV came out and said it, and/or i checked it myself. So here, we were actually BOTH inaccurate, except, i never spoke with absolute certainty (and i'm still not); YOU did. So you are STILL in the wrong on this; especially given you claimed "millions"; and i said "just over 1 million"; you'll find, i'm closer to what is true, than you are. So, back to my original point, people are over 100 mastery, that is confirmed. Is 5 mastery a big deal? NO. Their builds will be complete long before then, so i say "max mastery", because it basically is. Is it basically max mastery? That's the claim. YES. Then the argument still stands, and they STILL have a substantial advantage.

C) You have no evidence of alvarin being the most popular race outside of your anecdotal experience, and even if they were, you don't know definitively know it is the case because they are objectively superior. The argument here is it is a BAD argument; THAT is the argument,i'm not trying to say it isn't true; you absolute idiot. READ. You just skim read like an idiot, and see what you want to see. READ.

D) My IQ is high, as proven by winning all these arguments AGAIN, easily. Very VERY easily.

E) You died to me when you ran back to Tindrem, and tried to pretend i attacked you with 10 people or something LOL; what a loser. Lost all the arguments, and lost ingame too. Pathetic.

Many many issues with the graph.

Wym all 76 arrows my g? How much dsmage are they doing 3 each? And the cooldown would be back up again. That graph is irrelevant TTK isnt 76 arrows lmao what an absurditx.

+5 str doesnt add 5 per arrow thats nuts???

Graph is irrelevant and unrealistic.

Arrows wouldnt even fire at the same pace because smaller str bows require less charge time and Alvarins use smaller str bows... Also abilities exist that let you spam way more arrows during armor pierce window and that extra DPS for the duration is enough to easily kill a person especially if you nerf healing.

Thursars obviously arent superior at range every archer is an Alvarin and armor pierce/them doing way more damage with bows for enough time to kill even multiple people is a big part of it.

And you are doing a calculation that isnt even right for armor pierce.

Nerfing healing would make this exact Alvarin archer build that outtrades you heavy for 30 seconds and has smaller hitbox on top an unbeatable build because how you counter it now is healing corners trying to outsustain or at least mitigate their ranged superiority not pull out a bow and shoot them when they have a smaller hitbox are faster can run away if they start losing and do more damage LOL.

Hypothetically if there was a character that did 30000 damage first hit of the fight and then 35 dmg every other hit and there was another character that did 36 dmg per hit, lets say everyone has 30000 hp, the guy doing 30000 dmg first hit is WAY stronger character that always wins, even though if we do a million hits the second character will do way more damage.

It is 5 strength idc what you did or didnt include.

You never said "just over one million" LOL another lie you said its 300k.

You said max mastery and I said not max mastery, that is all. Quit moving the goalpost after losing every time.

Alvarins are the most popular race, all forms of evidence that exist includinf surveys the fact they nerfed them after a survey, videos and all of community agrees its an obvious fsct you dont need a study on and its embarassing and dishonest to claim otherwise.

Your IQ isnt high and you aint winning a thing.

You never solo killed me and I never said it was a 10v1 either it was a 3v1 that you could not possibly lose because it was 3 guys shooting Thursar from 30 meters away in the open. Lie with 0 evidence you couldnt possibly kill me alone.

 

[Sally]

Many many issues with the graph.

Wym all 76 arrows my g? How much dsmage are they doing 3 each? And the cooldown would be back up again. That graph is irrelevant TTK isnt 76 arrows lmao what an absurditx.

+5 str doesnt add 5 per arrow thats nuts???

Graph is irrelevant and unrealistic.

Arrows wouldnt even fire at the same pace because smaller str bows require less charge time and Alvarins use smaller str bows... Also abilities exist that let you spam way more arrows during armor pierce window and that extra DPS for the duration is enough to easily kill a person especially if you nerf healing.

Thursars obviously arent superior at range every archer is an Alvarin and armor pierce/them doing way more damage with bows for enough time to kill even multiple people is a big part of it.

And you are doing a calculation that isnt even right for armor pierce.

Nerfing healing would make this exact Alvarin archer build that outtrades you heavy for 30 seconds and has smaller hitbox on top an unbeatable build because how you counter it now is healing corners trying to outsustain or at least mitigate their ranged superiority not pull out a bow and shoot them when they have a smaller hitbox are faster can run away if they start losing and do more damage LOL.

Hypothetically if there was a character that did 30000 damage first hit of the fight and then 35 dmg every other hit and there was another character that did 36 dmg per hit, lets say everyone has 30000 hp, the guy doing 30000 dmg first hit is WAY stronger character that always wins, even though if we do a million hits the second character will do way more damage.

It is 5 strength idc what you did or didnt include.

You never said "just over one million" LOL another lie you said its 300k.

You said max mastery and I said not max mastery, that is all. Quit moving the goalpost after losing every time.

Alvarins are the most popular race, all forms of evidence that exist includinf surveys the fact they nerfed them after a survey, videos and all of community agrees its an obvious fsct you dont need a study on and its embarassing and dishonest to claim otherwise.

You never solo killed me and I never said it was a 10v1 either it was a 3v1 that you could not possibly lose because it was 3 guys shooting Thursar from 30 meters away in the open. Lie with 0 evidence you couldnt possibly kill me alone.

A) Rate of arrows changes nothing unless the time to fire one arrow exceeds the buff.

B) The consensus appears to be that 1 strength on a bow = 1 damage PAST a certain amount of strength.

C) I could easily just introduce battlecry into the equation, and then thursars would FAR exceed alvarins with a bow, even more so than they already do.

D) Within the same bow category, draw speed is the same regardless of strength, as far as my research shows me. So i'm not sure where you pulled that from.

E) Lastly, you're just saying "you're wrong, you're wrong!"; with no explanation. This can be ignored, since you have a tendency to gaslight when caught out.

F) The only person dying in one hit from an arrow, is going to be someone naked with low health, show in the head. Upon which, the alvarin buff doesn't matter.

You REALLY want to ignore the timescales of that buff, because it all falls apart when put in perspective of sustained damage. An arrow may exceed a thursar's damage (assuming they don't use battlecry), it becomes a tiny boost at best; but you're not killing someone instantly in heavy armor, so your little example doesn't fly. Infact, your example would likely only apply well to a naked; which, like i said, provides alvarins with NO advantage.

G) I said 300k from 100 to 110; read again. This WAS wrong, but so was your estimate of "millions"; which was further off than my estimate by far. This is if we can trust Wolfzeit to have came to the correct conclusion that is.

H) I explained in depth, by "max mastery", i meant, basically max mastery; that it was semantic shorthand for the crux of my argument, which was: people have gained a substantial progression advantage, which is unfair.

5 points of mastery is nothing; like, their build is complete before they even got to 100, never mind 110.

This is you picking superficial elements of the core argument, that don't actually disrupt the core point i'm putting across. It was shorthand. I meant "basically max mastery". As it was superficial to the core point, i didn't elaborate in depth on that. This is just desperation on your part.

I) I can't wait to see these survey Iloros, i mean ,you brought them up originally, and i'm still waiting.

J) What is so funny is, i can see your problem so clearly now. You're just going off how things feel; and based on your feeling, you decide what is true/untrue, you confirm your own bias based on your feelings. Now you've committed to it, you can't back out even when caught.

 

[Iloros]

A) Rate of arrows changes nothing unless the time to fire one arrow exceeds the buff.

B) The consensus appears to be that 1 strength on a bow = 1 damage PAST a certain amount of strength.

C) I could easily just introduce battlecry into the equation, and then thursars would FAR exceed alvarins with a bow, even more so than they already do.

D) Within the same bow category, draw speed is the same regardless of strength, as far as my research shows me. So i'm not sure where you pulled that from.

E) Lastly, you're just saying "you're wrong, you're wrong!"; with no explanation. This can be ignored, since you have a tendency to gaslight when caught out.

F) The only person dying in one hit from an arrow, is going to be someone naked with low health, show in the head. Upon which, the alvarin buff doesn't matter.

You REALLY want to ignore the timescales of that buff, because it all falls apart when put in perspective of sustained damage. An arrow may exceed a thursar's damage (assuming they don't use battlecry), it becomes a tiny boost at best; but you're not killing someone instantly in heavy armor, so your little example doesn't fly. Infact, your example would likely only apply well to a naked; which, like i said, provides alvarins with NO advantage.

G) I said 300k from 100 to 110; read again. This WAS wrong, but so was your estimate of "millions"; which was further off than my estimate by far. This is if we can trust Wolfzeit to have came to the correct conclusion that is.

H) I explained in depth, by "max mastery", i meant, basically max mastery; that it was semantic shorthand for the crux of my argument, which was: people have gained a substantial progression advantage, which is unfair.

5 points of mastery is nothing; like, their build is complete before they even got to 100, never mind 110.

This is you picking superficial elements of the core argument, that don't actually disrupt the core point i'm putting across. It was shorthand. I meant "basically max mastery". As it was superficial to the core point, i didn't elaborate in depth on that. This is just desperation on your part.

I) I can't wait to see these survey Iloros, i mean ,you brought them up originally, and i'm still waiting.

J) What is so funny is, i can see your problem so clearly now. You're just going off how things feel; and based on your feeling, you decide what is true/untrue, you confirm your own bias based on your feelings. Now you've committed to it, you can't back out even when caught.

First 2 claims are false, 0 evidence provided so can be discarded with no evidence, literally just false.

third claim - battlecry doesnt work on bows it doesnt let you use abilities therefore is bad for dps.

Draw speed is not the same regardless of str/range, which reminds me stam drain is also more massive.

76 arrows is unrealistic ttk and should be discarded, also bad calculation on armor pierce.

300k from 100-110 is false, again, I said that too why are you lying and twisting???
300k from 100-110 is an absurd claim, its like milion+ 108-109 alone is 600k

Max mastery means max mastery, you dont get to choose that max mastery means not max mastery LOL
You didn't originally claim 105 so quit defending an indefensible point thats false. 5 points of mastery isnt nothing its 5 points of mastery, gibberish. I could say 30 points are nothing and say 80 is max mastery, so I guess im max mastery?

Diphs survey, ask around idc to show it to you, 0 respect or time ill waste beyond quick responses, if someone else asks ill instantly link it, you are irrelevant.

I am not going off how things feel, you are a delusional liar that keeps talking about winning and his IQ, not me. You got corrected on facts, what? 20 times now.

Also you are completely off topic, this is about the exploit thing, as soon as I posed a question that leads to an actual logical argument, you full dodge and ramble about past conversations after you remember what you should have said while showering, if you do that at all.