Prof points, Crafter vs Refiner

[Kaemik]

Fully Optimized Extractor/Refiner:

Primaries(1200) - Basic Ore Extraction, Intermediate Ore Extraction, Advanced Ore Extraction, Petrology, Alchemy, Alchemical Mineralogy, Alchemical Dissolvents, Metallurgy, Master Alloys, Ore Extraction Appliances, Greater Natorus Operation, Blast Furnace Operation

Must be Ohgmir for full efficiency due to clades.

Thankfully this also creates a fully optimized miner for free. Miner/Extractor/Refiner is a single character role if optimized. Miner is a viable dip on many builds though. Extractor/Refiner are not.

 

[Amadman]

I dupe 10k sets of ohgmium. You put in the actual work to earn one yourself. We meet in the wild. Who wins the fight?

Same logic taken to the extreme.

When I play with my group I am on a pure mage with cooking able to test the materials we gather as we move around the map. When things die down and I want to chill/solo for awhile I switch to a dedicated miner/refiner/extractor that at the same time is optimized for melee (and therefore better for solo play).

It’s a huge advantage that only required more IRL monetary investment. Pay to win.

I guess it is up to interpretation.

To me pay to win means that the person that throws more money at it will win against a more skilled person that spent less.

No matter how much money you throw at this game, the equally equipped player with more skill will still win when you come up against them.


Pay to win is frowned upon because players feel that no matter how good they are, someone can pay a bunch of money and beat them anyway.

This is not how it works in MO. Even if a player can make another account, they have gained little more than making a friend that can do the same.

Sure it unbalances the whole work with others type of deal of the game. But it really does not make the individual characters win over any other character.

 

[hollow]

I guess it is up to interpretation.

To me pay to win means that the person that throws more money at it will win against a more skilled person that spent less.

No matter how much money you throw at this game, the equally equipped player with more skill will still win when you come up against them.


Pay to win is frowned upon because players feel that no matter how good they are, someone can pay a bunch of money and beat them anyway.

This is not how it works in MO. Even if a player can make another account, they have gained little more than making a friend that can do the same.

Sure it unbalances the whole work with others type of deal of the game. But it really does not make the individual characters win over any other character.

I don't agree that winning is just beating the other player on pvp. The player that buys more accounts can make much more money/goods than a player with just one account. The equally equipped player may have more skill but you can just out-resource him because you have dozens of stacks of the best armor and resources and he doesn't.
They should at least put the 24h restriction to log another account if you're already logged. 2k+ skills points, the ability to multibox and be in more than one location at once seems pretty pay to win for a game of this type.

Also the double standards in the forum is insane, noobs from haven shouldn't be able to access the bank everywhere (which I agree is pretty unbalanced) but a player with 10 accounts should be able to be in 10 different cities with 10K+ craft points and the ability to multibox and transfer resources between them just because he has deep pockets.

 

[Kaemik]

I guess it may not fit your definition of pay-to-win though. But as people keep saying, this isn't an arena combat game it's an MMO. The economy and combat aspects are two highly intertwined elements deeply involved in eachother.

If you try to pretend a 2nd account doesn't have huge economic benefits at the moment, you're exceptionally short sighted. And if you don't think the economy is super important, you frankly should be playing Mordhau.

 

[Fyrel]

Not sure why anyone is saying that you can make metals and also craft weapons on the same character. It doesn't really add up, even just putting 70 points into wep crafting only frees up 150 points or so and a slag hauler uses all 1200 points to be completely skilled (couldn't do quite everything with the 1100 points available in MO1 even after they made a few things like mining into secondaries.)

When you add in the int bonus on all these skills and the +20 material lore clad bonus for humans you free up a lot of points.

 

[Kaemik]

When you add in the int bonus on all these skills and the +20 material lore clad bonus for humans you free up a lot of points.

Humans shouldn't be used as extractors/refiners. You're better off mining it and then setting aside to give to an ohgmir ally for extraction/refining. They get more output material per input material.

The entire point of an extraction/refining character is to efficiently turn one resource type into another. So Ohgmir are just objectively better than everything else.

 

[Rorry]

Drop BluntWeapon Crafting or 2h Blade hilt Crafting depends on what you prefer or drop Mastery alloys and blast furnance. I mean blast furnance only in gaul kor so yeah good luck. xD

Im not sure if im completly right but these are all skills needed. andyes you also have some points left because we ahve currently 1200skill point ingame, or am i wrong?

I dont know but it seems you can fit than in? or not? did i forgot something?


View attachment 1627

You don't have G, nat, Alch dissolvents (unknown whether we will need this, it always seemed like a bug that we didn't before,) or basic, intermediate, and advanced Ore extraction.

 

[Rorry]

When you add in the int bonus on all these skills and the +20 material lore clad bonus for humans you free up a lot of points.

Yes, but not enough points.

 

[Woody]

I guess it may not fit your definition of pay-to-win though. But as people keep saying, this isn't an arena combat game it's an MMO. The economy and combat aspects are two highly intertwined elements deeply involved in eachother.

If you try to pretend a 2nd account doesn't have huge economic benefits at the moment, you're exceptionally short sighted. And if you don't think the economy is super important, you frankly should be playing Mordhau.

Everyone understands the logical advantages/economical benefits of multi accounts but this is a non-issue simply because it's IMPOSSIBLE to solve. At the end of the day, it's a game with real world implications. There's no way you can police someone using multiple accounts nor would the devs do that because there is a financial incentive to allow it. They've gone the furthest they logically could by creating a disincentive to multiple characters in that players need to pay 2x the sub and 2x the box price, not to mention the inconvenience of multi boxing or logging in or out of steam. Going further would require IP or hardware restrictions which is too far considering multiple individuals may play the game on the same IP or same PC (on different steam accounts).

What they've done now, is fine and the best solution to what they're trying to achieve, in that the Majority of players will have one account (because they don't want to pay two subs) and in doing so, they're encouraging the social aspect of MMORPGs back into the forefront of gameplay (which we know every modern MMO fails to do now).

EDIT: I also want to add, anyone complaining about not being able to do everything through one account either needs to play the game as it's intended, with other players or just bite the bullet and pay more than one sub/multi-account. That said, doing the latter will only make your ingame experience worse considering some of the best content to be had in a sandbox mmo is the social aspects...

 

[Kaemik]

It's impossible to police, it's not impossible to solve or at least reduce the impact. The current system is damn near optimized for multi-accouters. Skillcaps are a terrible system particularly for crafting. To quote myself from another thread:

At this point this would be my ideal system:

1. Crafting system overhauled for dedicated crafters and not side bonus for people who don't enjoy crafting. Balancing crafting around what PvP focused players is like balancing PvP around what crafting-focused players want. It's stupid.

Crafting skills should take significant time and dedication to raise becoming exponentially harder to raise as you get better. 70 skill should take weeks or a month or two. 100 skill should take a year or two. Up to 70 skill items get better (more armor, damage etc.) past 70 they continue to only give durability as they do now. This still makes 100 crafters very valuable as they are more material-efficient at generating items but newer crafters can still break into the market and make items people will want relatively quickly.

Professions are shared across all mortal forms on a soul. (See point 2)

Skillcaps removed from professions entirely. Skillcaps have always been a bad system with open systems such as EVE Online, Wurm Online, or Darkfall being massively better not just according to myself but to most people I know who have tried it both ways.

2. Characters can bind new mortal forms to their soul. Your "soul" is account-wide and priest can recognize a soul meaning your reputation follows your soul and not your mortal forms. Players with spiritualism can also identify a soul, making it difficult to escape a bad rep by rerolling characters. Professions are bound to souls as well. Each soul can have a maximum of 2-3 mortal forms and trade between them at priests.

__________

I gave this list of the advantages of multi-accounting earlier. Here is how much these two changes narrow it down:

1. Easy access to additional professions.
2. Additional combat builds that can be played.*
3. The ability to be several places on the map at once.
4. The ability to do semi-afk tasks like mining/woodcutting while actively playing your main using multiple computers.
5. The ability to take taming and thieving as professions without gimping your mains combat abilities.

*This advantage is not removed but made FAR less major of an advantage.
__________

This system:

1. Addresses pay-to-win.
2. Allows variety of play without racial or build rerolls. You can play as a mage when your friends are on an a fighter when they are not.
3. Does not allow alts as boulder holders or a teleport method.
4. Rewards dedicated crafters.
5. Can easily be adapted to the lore and make it more flavorful in the process.
6. Does not allow character deletion to escape mechanical or community rep.

It would require some work to adapt the current crafting system to suit it optimally. It would be very easy to implement on the combat side.

 

[Kaemik]

It's specifically because of group play elements that skillcaps need to be replaced with time investment btw. We have have some members that LOVE to gather and craft and we have some members who only want to fight. In games like Wurm Online with a capless system based on time investment as a limiter, this works out great. People who want to be crafters dedicate more time to crafting and therefore are better crafters. But with time-investment as a major limiter no single player can master every skill.

In this game our dedicated crafters are relegated a single craft per account while people like Philly who hate crafting are leveling up crafting skill simply because we feel the need to have as much crafting coverage/redundancy as possible to get people items when they ask for them.

It's a terrible system. Everything about it crap. Skillcaps almost universally make games worse in that there are many better limiting factors out there used by many other games. Skillcaps are a lazy solution.

 

[Woody]

It's impossible to police, it's not impossible to solve or at least reduce the impact. The current system is damn near optimized for multi-accouters. Skillcaps are a terrible system particularly for crafting. To quote myself from another thread:

In respect to the quoted post regarding "souls", here's my thoughts of why I don't feel in favor of it:

1. I want my effort towards creating a single build/character to mean something and be a commitment. I want that character to be known for being a foot fighter, mage etc. Having every player able to do everything via stored builds/souls is called homogenization, which other popular MMOs have suffered from.
2. Flexibility of your role in pvp/content removes a large aspect of the game, in that having a variety of builds via friends/guildies feels rewarding to the group as a whole. Having flexibility via the single account in this respect diminishes any kind of identity the character has and you may as well just have multiple characters on one account again.
3. It's too convoluted. Most game systems are implemented in a way that just plain make sense e.g my character that I create is persistent, has a single role (other games have classes), has strengths and weaknesses and is rewarded for being that character when it is online in the world.
4. Skill-caps are important for identity of your characters role in the world and SV have made this clear that they want individual characters to feel valued for their investment into skills and to make a choice as to what they're good at. This is the direction the game they've envisioned will go in and I don't see it changing. Yes multiple accounts allow for a single player to excel at multiple things more easily but like I previously mentioned, they've gone as far as they can to mitigate against this.

I agree, that your suggestion does close the gap in the benefits of multi-boxing for sure, but I think it also diminishes a lot of the other aspects of game-play, especially considering the vast majority of players will not multi-account due to the real world costs of doing so. The hardcore sweats will always find ways to min-max systems, no matter how much effort you put in to prevent it. Best SV can do, is mitigate against it, not redesign the core fundamentals of the game they've designed.

 

[Kaemik]

I want my effort towards creating a single build/character to mean something and be a commitment.

In Wurm Online only freshly made characters could play on the new servers that came with Steam Release. I made a new character and decided "I want to be a fine carpenter. I've never done that before and it seems really fun. I'm going to focus hard on that."

So I did. For the 1-2 months I played that character I sailed around the world on a boat building wagons, furniture, and making carpentry tools for people. What caused me to quit is I was so well known as a fine carpenter I had a backlog of jobs days long even after I stopped advertising my services. There was like 2 other people in the entire game with a comparable skill level, and one of them was a hardcore grinder who lived in a grinder monastery chanting grinder mantras and never actually going out and doing jobs for the public.

Wurm has no skillcap. It has time investnment.

1-2 months into MO2, I'll be maxed in whatever craft I put on my main and probably all my alts too. As will many others. How is that "commitment"? There will be dozens of people maxed in every craft. You won't be known for anything.

 

[Woody]

In Wurm Online only freshly made characters could play on the new servers that came with Steam Release. I made a new character and decided "I want to be a fine carpenter. I've never done that before and it seems really fun. I'm going to focus hard on that."

So I did. For the 1-2 months I played that character I sailed around the world on a boat building wagons, furniture, and making carpentry tools for people. What caused me to quit is I was so well known as a fine carpenter I had a backlog of jobs days long even after I stopped advertising my services. There was like 2 other people in the entire game with a comparable skill level, and one of them was a hardcore grinder who lived in a grinder monastery chanting grinder mantras and never actually going out and doing jobs for the public.

Wurm has no skillcap. It has time investnment.

1-2 months into MO2, I'll be maxed in whatever craft I put on my main and probably all my alts too. As will many others. How is that "commitment"? There will be dozens of people maxed in every craft. You won't be known for anything.

Given we're currently at x100 speed gain across the board, on what basis are you determining that maxing out your character will be doable in 2 months?

 

[Kaemik]

Given we're currently at x100 speed gain across the board, on what basis are you determining that maxing out your character will be doable in 2 months?

I can max a crafter in less than half a day. 50 days is less than 2 months. And most of that half a day is spent running around finding skillbooks and different materials which will be a smaller part of the process when you're reading the same book for days

Also using MO1 as a barometer having multiple maxed crafters was not at all uncommon.

 

[Woody]

I can max a crafter in less than half a day. 50 days is less than 2 months. And most of that half a day is spent running around finding skillbooks and different materials which will be a smaller part of the process when you're reading the same book for days

Also using MO1 as a barometer having multiple maxed crafters was not at all uncommon.

Here's my workings in game with something I can easily test which in my case is swords. So at 100x exp rate when leveling up "swords" without reading, per hit I'm getting 9 exp. Assuming this isn't showing the decimal exp or partial exp points due to this increase so lets assuming one hit with your sword is actually giving me 10 exp. 10/100 is 0.1 exp a swing. I need 10x hits for 1 exp point (sorry for dumbing it down - just being clear)

To get a level up from 69-70 with my current swords skill I need 60000 exp. The amount of exp required increases with each level gained (e.g my axes are at 40 and only require 45,000 per level). Therefore I need to hit a mob with a sword:

60000*0.1 = 600000 effective hits

Six hundred thousand hits to go from level 69 to 70. Without passive reading etc or other modifiers, clades etc.

I also have a feeling crafting gains are skuffed atm even with the correct 100x modifier for beta, resulting in the negative skill points we're experiencing. We will know more once they implement a fix next patch. Reading also seems off as an accurate example of how gains should work given it's based off an hour modifier. So I'm assuming the hour value is going to be the correct rate without the 100x modifier.

Let me know if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here when it comes to exp gains but I've got a feeling we're not currently able to make accurate mathematically found assumptions on the normal rate of skill gains across the board.

 

[Kaemik]

In terms of combat you run a combat macro while a friendly mage runs a self-heal macro. Not even bannable. Usage based leveling for combat skills is garbage (Even more so than skillcaps). Most combat builds will be finished leveling in days by people who can make a macro or have friends that send them the script. Your sword skill will be maxed when you wake up in the morning if you find a good place to hide and AFK (locked houses will eventually be the meta for this).

However fast or slow leveling is. I'd throw out this universal rule:

If it's fast enough skillcaps are a meaningful limitation, time investment is not.
If it's slow enough time investment is a meaningful limitation, skillcaps are unneeded.

That is true for all games. And time investment is always a superior limitation for crafting skills IMO.

 

[Woody]

In terms of combat you run a combat macro while a friendly mage runs a self-heal macro. Not even bannable. Usage based leveling is garbage (Even more so than skillcaps). Most combat builds will be finished leveling in days by people who can make a macro or have friends that send them the script. Your sword skill will be maxed when you wake up in the morning if you find a good place to hide and AFK (locked houses will eventually be the meta for this).

However fast or slow leveling is. I'd throw out this universal rule:

If it's fast enough skillcaps are a meaningful limitation, time investment is not.
If it's slow enough time investment is a meaningful limitation, skillcaps are unneeded.

That is true for all games.

That's a completely different issue entirely. You're now deflecting from your argument in that you've already ascertained how fast leveling will be, which was justifying your point that players won't be "known" for anything and that the skill cap system is bad. What I've provided you is evidence contrary to your assumption that we'll all be min maxed in 2 months. Clearly the beta x100 exp rate seem to be interacting with each skill differently - so let's take it with a grain of salt.

Now that you've mentioned it though, there's a logical and pragmatic way to prevent macroing to a certain degree via diminishing returns, when striking the same entity(ies) over and over again.

 

[Kaemik]

Obviously anything can change. Right now it's reasonable to assume less than 2 months. Especially since maxing a crafter was no big deal in MO1. People with a dozen maxed crafters were not uncommon in MO1 so why would we assume they will be in MO2 beyond IRL cash investment (the only thing that seems to have changed).

And nothing will change the fact that that time investment will ALWAYS be the superior system if you want "commitment" or "to be known to something". Skill caps are a limiter for a quick easy leveling system. They will NEVER allow you to distinguish yourself as a crafter because if the crafting system is meaningfully hard they are redundant.

You either want it easy or you want to be known for something. You can't have both.

 

[Woody]

Hmm did some further testing and watching the exp bar as I hit stuff which makes me think the exp bar is skuffed. Tooltip reads "Your current exp and how much you need to reach the next level" but I'm not even maxing my exp bar and I'm gaining levels so yea. Something is totally skuffed or the x100 times rate is being calculated illogically.