Poll: Do You Like The New Combat

[ThaBadMan]

Yes theres too little organic and dynamic fighting being done.

Then again imo the reason why kiting is not tested is because of how easy it is to kite and how time consuming it is to chase down a fleeing player.

Its too easy to be defensive and get rid of 90% of incoming damage in a kite, theres no way to consistently get around parries.
We did allow as much kiting in group fights for a short time but it made the fights take forever so we pretty much limited kiting area or simply called for a refight if it dragged on.

It doesnt help much that development goes against the obvious result that kiting is far too easy atm, but we dont have magic or mounteds so theres really no point in testing it until those are in.

I feel most of the testers agree combat is too easy and TTK is too long and generally things are to slow, even though this is the case development consistently work against that by making things easier and easier and slower and slower.

This is reflected by the fact that activity is only good at patch day and group fight nights. If combat is dull and boring, activity will not be there.

 

[Rorry]

Fighting should become more organic over the next few patches, now let's hope they will try speeding it back up now that they have ping leveling in game!

 

[Pierre]

But.....at what cost?

if the combat isn't that fun to begin with.

According to the polls, plenty of people think otherwise.

But how do you test combat if nobody wants to fight and just stands there? I'd say the only things you shouldnt do is grief ppl visible crafting and not priest camp them. Anything else should be fair game

I've seen and participated in plenty of fights myself. Lying or grossly exaggerating to get your point across does not appropriately contribute to an accurate, constructive discussion of the game.

Ok. Hear me out, right? Did I say that people couldn't have consensual fights?

...?

No? Ok then. Believe it or not, a lot of us aren't playing because of this specific grey-area rule; we aren't playing because the combat isn't enjoyable.

Also, believe it or not; this is a combat alpha. How are you supposed to rigorously test a combat system that is meant to be built for the unexpected, built for griefing, built for trolling, built for dealing the most harm and or damage to players. MO1 used to not coddle people, it was only until TC rapidly blew up did it really stop being so dangerous everywhere.

People trolling and griefing could EASILY be policed by the community, but now it's being done by people who stream or who are seen as 'valuable players' and it's okay if they grief and troll but if a player who isn't so liked or maybe even is critical of the game; they can easily catch a ban for breaking this rule even once. This rule has double standards and is extremely hard to enforce. (Which the funny thing is, I even tested this by taking videos of people doing it to me and reported them; nothing. But someone makes one peep about me and I'm banned within 20 minutes.)

I'm not advocating for players to just ruin testing, or that people who blatantly just grief someone over and over and over and OVER should be allowed to continue. But there has to be SOME leniency, but knowing Star Vault they set up rules then only hold people they don't like accountable.. or just not at all.

If you think the parrying is much better now because someone has thirty seconds (sarcasm) to prepare to do so, then you're crazy. These parries aren't reflexive parries, it might as well feel like I'm playing through a games tutorial combat.

Maybe you should reread my post. The griefing, trolling etc features you describe can be tested in beta or upon full release. This alpha was meant to test some of the more fundamental game mechanics to ensure everything works as intended. It is not meant to test such complicated player interactions and playstyles. This is also, what? the fifth time you brought up removing rules regarding griefing and trolling? Something tells me you have a more personal vendetta against these rules rather trying to better the game. Few others have a serious problem with banning griefing and trolling from the alpha as it has greatly impacted testing in the past.

 

[HentaiKing]

Honestly the dev team is spending way too much time balancing combat when combat isn't even feature complete. You can't be talking about combat balance when its just foot 1v1s(the most ping based fight).

It's always gona feel bad if you have high ping.

It's always gona feel good if you have low ping.

As long as the high ping player can interact with the low ping then the game is passable and the dev team should move on. This is a UO style game not wow arena or league of legends. It's not competitive match making. This is a ganking and territory war game. You should be asking Henrik for 1v1 and 3v3 matchmaking if thats not your thing.

Mage/MC/MA, the highest skill roles, compete very well even with high ping. The dev team should focus on getting the higher skill roles out before balancing.

 

[Kuroi]

can anyone screenshot the results? lol

 

[Eldrath]

This alpha was meant to test some of the more fundamental game mechanics to ensure everything works as intended. It is not meant to test such complicated player interactions and playstyles.

Actually the intention of the COMBAT alpha is to build the core of combat, because SV does not want to go back and forth with balancing when the game goes live. So testing things related to combat, like kiting or how combat differs when using shit or no equipment is part of that.

The easiest way to do this is non consensual fights. There is nothing preventing anyone from having those anyway, since you have 3 ghost towns and can spawn a new character whenever you like. Banning people for seeking out organic fight is counter productive to testing.

I am not talking about interrupting team fights of mindlessly slaughtering people at the crafting station. But if people get banned for "interrupting" duels testing will be limited. It IS limited and we will all pay the price for that in the long run. Because the stated intention of SV is that they won´t change the core mechanics of combat after alpha. So maybe it´s a good idea to fix these things now?

 

[Teknique]

can anyone screenshot the results? lol

If you vote neutral you can see it.

 

[Bernfred]

I feel most of the testers agree combat is too easy and TTK is too long and generally things are to slow, even though this is the case development consistently work against that by making things easier and easier and slower and slower.

pro: 31
neutral: 13
contra: 14

do you think when you make the game faster it would change anything to the better? btw. i think some see the poll as "better than before the patches" and some as status quo.
a little bit faster and we are still where we are + some more complains that its too fast or still not fast enough.
a lot faster and pro 16 people turn to 0 like it was before the last patches.
in an universe with teamfights and fixed speed of light is ping leveling just a nice tool to have.

i can 100% understand that the game is too slow for the mechanics right now but we know things are coming and there are plenty of parameters you can play with without sacrificing the half player base. right know its about how good the basic movement and swinging works.

the main reason i think why its not so enjoable for a lot of people is because you get no reward when you parry and hit back because chances are high that the opponent parries your parry. also you can not just charge a swing and hope for a hit or feint but it was a lot worse before the patches and in MO1 so people had the illusion that they are very skilled when they spam WASD + left mouse + crazy mouse wiggles.


some fixes could be beside gear stats:
- (i like the idea of armor hit boxes so you are protected where you see armor but this is unrealstic i think...)
-buff hits you dont fully charge
-parry dmg not 0 for full charged hits and/or increased for parried parrys
- you lose stamina the moment you block or higher stamina loss for blocking
-smaller parry time window (with a small window you can introduce more swing manipulation like dragging)
-precise parry angle and nerfing feint into parry could be hot topic
-rewards when you hit the enemy (blocked or not) like a stamina/adrenaline boost
-longer recovery time after a miss hit (this would make it possible for a high skilled/low geared player to defeat a low skilled/high geared player due to the fact the you can punish him for most missed hits)
-dodging...

 

[Pierre]

Actually the intention of the COMBAT alpha is to build the core of combat, because SV does not want to go back and forth with balancing when the game goes live. So testing things related to combat, like kiting or how combat differs when using shit or no equipment is part of that.

The easiest way to do this is non consensual fights. There is nothing preventing anyone from having those anyway, since you have 3 ghost towns and can spawn a new character whenever you like. Banning people for seeking out organic fight is counter productive to testing.

I am not talking about interrupting team fights of mindlessly slaughtering people at the crafting station. But if people get banned for "interrupting" duels testing will be limited. It IS limited and we will all pay the price for that in the long run. Because the stated intention of SV is that they won´t change the core mechanics of combat after alpha. So maybe it´s a good idea to fix these things now?

I'm curious as to why you believe it is acceptable to interrupt duels but not team fights. Playing devil's advocate, would not the converse be what would help test kiting and other combat mechanics? Either way, the issue with your line of thought is that nonconsensual fights/griefing would only be permitted in certain circumstances such as duels, but would be prohibited in others such as the killing of crafters. This creates too many issues with enforcing the rules. People could as you say interrupt groupfights but then claim they were just trying to jump into what they perceived as a duel. Or two individuals could be testing weapons they just crafted and be griefed by an individual claiming he/she was merely jumping in between a duel. It is best to ban ALL forms of griefing to catch these loopholes.

Furthermore, the unlimited gear available due to the game being in an alpha amplifies a griefer's impact on the game's testing. Were there guards and a reasonable time sink in order to obtain said gear, griefing would have a smaller impact. As of now, it is easy for an individual to consistently harass players trying to test mechanics. If griefing were allowed, players engaged in non-consensual fights may find one opposing team constantly respawning at the nearest priest and return into the fray with the gear they either keep upon respawning, or with that made from a quick run to the nearest crafting station. This would skew any information gathered pertaining to kiting and combat overall, which by the way, I still do not see how mechanics such as these cannot be better tested consensually. Allowing griefing just causes more harm than good, even when taking into account the potential data collection from surprise fights.

 

[Keurk]

pierre, if you don't understand combat pvp variable regarding mo, how the hell would you understand what is in need of testing.
Grifers really ? the griefers in the alpha are like 2 or 3 people rerolling chars and getting zerged 3V10 many times. It is a combat alpha, all should be tested including people not wanting to get killed that are being jumped by somebody when they one hit. why? because it needs to happen, if it isnt happening, you are testing bad , or you are doing unobjective testing and focus on a particular task. What is also good but... We just need all kind of testing, and the griefers as you call them are the one testing the most escapes routes, roofs jumping , so they know stuck spots, collisions shits issues etc. Why , cause they get jumped by 5 people while being alone on their way to survive

I know cause i play the alpha, i don't grief, and take down thoses people everyone call griefers. Difference is i don't complain, i embrasse it, they want to fight against the crowd and knowing they gonna get zerged in couple minutes, fine. Why are people so mad, even trying to make thoses people banned ? While they simply play the krannesh guerilla tactics playstyle... You guys wanting them to get banned are a danger for balance and for the game.

You could even find a dupe hitting somebody that is crafting while he's doing crafting animation and you hit him. Suchs things you need to test to find all thoses issues, all the little thing most people didnt think about but do experiment in the game. All this is part of testing.

You are the one exagerating to prove a point. griefing lol. You immediatly can respawn , you loose nothing, and yet you all crybabies are constantly putting the word griefing in anything that isnt an arranged group fight.
Welcome to mortal online. When the game gonna release, all people or 99% of thoses people that are so mad for being killed a few times in the alpha, what do you think is gonna happen to them ? They gonna be very loud you 'll see and they gonna disapear, erazed from the game

 

[Eskaldar]

I believe that it is too early to make any changes in the combat system, before the introduction of all combat mechanics. I mean before the introduction of magic and normal bows and maunts to change something - it's too early. But i think a player should be able to play both defensively and offensively. MO1 defense was sometimes very difficult to play, especially if you have a high ping and the opponent has a fast weapon.

 

[Vakirauta]

pierre, if you don't understand combat pvp variable regarding mo, how the hell would you understand what is in need of testing.
Grifers really ? the griefers in the alpha are like 2 or 3 people rerolling chars and getting zerged 3V10 many times. It is a combat alpha, all should be tested including people not wanting to get killed that are being jumped by somebody when they one hit. why? because it needs to happen, if it isnt happening, you are testing bad , or you are doing unobjective testing and focus on a particular task. What is also good but... We just need all kind of testing, and the griefers as you call them are the one testing the most escapes routes, roofs jumping , so they know stuck spots, collisions shits issues etc. Why , cause they get jumped by 5 people while being alone on their way to survive

I know cause i play the alpha, i don't grief, and take down thoses people everyone call griefers. Difference is i don't complain, i embrasse it, they want to fight against the crowd and knowing they gonna get zerged in couple minutes, fine. Why are people so mad, even trying to make thoses people banned ? While they simply play the krannesh guerilla tactics playstyle... You guys wanting them to get banned are a danger for balance and for the game.

You could even find a dupe hitting somebody that is crafting while he's doing crafting animation and you hit him. Suchs things you need to test to find all thoses issues, all the little thing most people didnt think about but do experiment in the game. All this is part of testing.

You are the one exagerating to prove a point. griefing lol. You immediatly can respawn , you loose nothing, and yet you all crybabies are constantly putting the word griefing in anything that isnt an arranged group fight.
Welcome to mortal online. When the game gonna release, all people or 99% of thoses people that are so mad for being killed a few times in the alpha, what do you think is gonna happen to them ? They gonna be very loud you 'll see and they gonna disapear, erazed from the game

Damn man, I went mad two or three times because of that kind of behaviour you mentioned, but you're damn right.

 

[ThaBadMan]

I believe that it is too early to make any changes in the combat system, before the introduction of all combat mechanics. I mean before the introduction of magic and normal bows and maunts to change something - it's too early. But i think a player should be able to play both defensively and offensively. MO1 defense was sometimes very difficult to play, especially if you have a high ping and the opponent has a fast weapon.

This is true, but imo same is true about the game atm. Its way too soon to release into persistent anytime less than 6 months in the future.
We need the complete combat experience with all combat related items in order to test and balance the combat. We could have spent a year testing all aspects of combat and a addition like potions would imbalance all that work in a second.
This is what SV didnt learn from MO and we gonna have the same trend in MO2 if this continues.

Damn man, I went mad two or three times because of that kind of behaviour you mentioned, but you're damn right.

What people dont get is such behaviour shows what kind of player you are. Come release griefers will know who to target to ruin their game experience.

pro: 31
neutral: 13
contra: 14

do you think when you make the game faster it would change anything to the better? btw. i think some see the poll as "better than before the patches" and some as status quo.
a little bit faster and we are still where we are + some more complains that its too fast or still not fast enough.
a lot faster and pro 16 people turn to 0 like it was before the last patches.
in an universe with teamfights and fixed speed of light is ping leveling just a nice tool to have.

i can 100% understand that the game is too slow for the mechanics right now but we know things are coming and there are plenty of parameters you can play with without sacrificing the half player base. right know its about how good the basic movement and swinging works.

the main reason i think why its not so enjoable for a lot of people is because you get no reward when you parry and hit back because chances are high that the opponent parries your parry. also you can not just charge a swing and hope for a hit or feint but it was a lot worse before the patches and in MO1 so people had the illusion that they are very skilled when they spam WASD + left mouse + crazy mouse wiggles.


some fixes could be beside gear stats:
- (i like the idea of armor hit boxes so you are protected where you see armor but this is unrealstic i think...)
-buff hits you dont fully charge
-parry dmg not 0 for full charged hits and/or increased for parried parrys
- you lose stamina the moment you block or higher stamina loss for blocking
-smaller parry time window (with a small window you can introduce more swing manipulation like dragging)
-precise parry angle and nerfing feint into parry could be hot topic
-rewards when you hit the enemy (blocked or not) like a stamina/adrenaline boost
-longer recovery time after a miss hit (this would make it possible for a high skilled/low geared player to defeat a low skilled/high geared player due to the fact the you can punish him for most missed hits)
-dodging...

It depends what you mean with better really. Yes increasing any kind of speed in combat will make the combat better and harder for the bigger audience, lower reaction times promote skill and training.
No it will not make the game better for 80% of players simpy due to their own lazyness in not wanting to spend 400h to be good at the combat for example, most players want to be able to compete in a instant not after a week of mostly training.

What is funny back when the alpha started literally everyone complained the combat was too slow and it was alot faster than now, both swing wise and movement wise, first patch increased speed and there was no complaints until the next testers came and cried about how hard it was. SV being SV caved and slowed the game down to grandpa speeds and blame it on tech yet again.

The more cryers lost the more whining was present until the delay was introduced and move speed slowed, since the game became parry mode for all the whining mostly stopped.

Whats also funny is that we wanted to reduce the 360 blocking because parries was too easy with faster combat and once that came in we very soon had slow combat.

I know this wont change, the majority will always cry when things are hard or require a good amount of training to be decent at. Everyone seems to want to be the protagonist god tier player but very few want to put in the work to shine above the rest. Modern age has ruined gamers who changed to want everything for free right now not later.

Which is why the game I am waiting for, sadly never will be a thing.

You know theres something very wrong when the only ways of attack is through defense through a easier swing thats still very easy to parry or you go around someones block and gets called a prediction abuser and due to the slow movement its not a reliable way of getting dmg in either.
So only ways to attack and be aggressive in combat is through abuse or defense the need for a enemy to swing at you. Other than that theres only surprising someone and unless they are bad players you get max 3 free hits who none would be consistent full dmg.

Its supposed to be a dangerous world but the best offense is defense, and still players think its a good combat system.
The excuse here is that mounted and magic is coming, which sounds terrific right, we gonna need a mounted or a mage to kill players due to the game being a parry whore game. Sounds like MO1 to me, a good game to copy due to its immense success right ?
"Dont learn from mistakes, keep doing them!" Mantra of MO fanboys...

 

[Bernfred]

I believe that it is too early to make any changes in the combat system, before the introduction of all combat mechanics. I mean before the introduction of magic and normal bows and maunts to change something - it's too early. But i think a player should be able to play both defensively and offensively. MO1 defense was sometimes very difficult to play, especially if you have a high ping and the opponent has a fast weapon.

how can it be too early

This is true, but imo same is true about the game atm. Its way too soon to release into persistent anytime less than 6 months in the future.
We need the complete combat experience with all combat related items in order to test and balance the combat. We could have spent a year testing all aspects of combat and a addition like potions would imbalance all that work in a second.
This is what SV didnt learn from MO and we gonna have the same trend in MO2 if this continues.

What people dont get is such behaviour shows what kind of player you are. Come release griefers will know who to target to ruin their game experience.


It depends what you mean with better really. Yes increasing any kind of speed in combat will make the combat better and harder for the bigger audience, lower reaction times promote skill and training.
No it will not make the game better for 80% of players simpy due to their own lazyness in not wanting to spend 400h to be good at the combat for example, most players want to be able to compete in a instant not after a week of mostly training.

What is funny back when the alpha started literally everyone complained the combat was too slow and it was alot faster than now, both swing wise and movement wise, first patch increased speed and there was no complaints until the next testers came and cried about how hard it was. SV being SV caved and slowed the game down to grandpa speeds and blame it on tech yet again.

The more cryers lost the more whining was present until the delay was introduced and move speed slowed, since the game became parry mode for all the whining mostly stopped.

Whats also funny is that we wanted to reduce the 360 blocking because parries was too easy with faster combat and once that came in we very soon had slow combat.

I know this wont change, the majority will always cry when things are hard or require a good amount of training to be decent at. Everyone seems to want to be the protagonist god tier player but very few want to put in the work to shine above the rest. Modern age has ruined gamers who changed to want everything for free right now not later.

Which is why the game I am waiting for, sadly never will be a thing.

You know theres something very wrong when the only ways of attack is through defense through a easier swing thats still very easy to parry or you go around someones block and gets called a prediction abuser and due to the slow movement its not a reliable way of getting dmg in either.
So only ways to attack and be aggressive in combat is through abuse or defense the need for a enemy to swing at you. Other than that theres only surprising someone and unless they are bad players you get max 3 free hits who none would be consistent full dmg.

Its supposed to be a dangerous world but the best offense is defense, and still players think its a good combat system.
The excuse here is that mounted and magic is coming, which sounds terrific right, we gonna need a mounted or a mage to kill players due to the game being a parry whore game. Sounds like MO1 to me, a good game to copy due to its immense success right ?
"Dont learn from mistakes, keep doing them!" Mantra of MO fanboys...

it seems you dont understand the concept of ping /network, that we all play on one server in europe so the more players come the more complains will come because they have 100-200ms more latency.
i for myself can play faster games like mordhau and chivalry also im from germany so im not biased. the patches before the slow down where a heavy mess. i rekt 80% of the NA players and and no it was not skill.
its either stupid or selfish thinking when you want to balance a game just for your needs.
anyway that doesnt mean that the speed is on its final stage i can imagine they can improve the netcode so they can make some moves faster again.

 

[Rorry]

The thing is Badman, for Americans (or me at least) swing speed is faster now than it was at the beginning of testing. At the beginning I would watch videos of Eu's swinging and wonder just why in the hell they could swing so much faster than me. Then also turn around and parry every thing I tried, even if they were in the middle of a swing.

Edit: Added. That doesn't mean I don't want them to increase speed.

 

[Svaar]

It's strange that the test of the combat system goes without mounts and without magic. In fact, with their introduction into the game, the battle will radically change and all the mechanics will have to be rebalanced in a new way.

 

[Rorry]

I reckon we will still be testing when those are brought into the game.

 

[ChavaiotH]

The combat itself is ok, but how blocking works?

 

[ThaBadMan]

how can it be too early


it seems you dont understand the concept of ping /network, that we all play on one server in europe so the more players come the more complains will come because they have 100-200ms more latency.
i for myself can play faster games like mordhau and chivalry also im from germany so im not biased. the patches before the slow down where a heavy mess. i rekt 80% of the NA players and and no it was not skill.
its either stupid or selfish thinking when you want to balance a game just for your needs.
anyway that doesnt mean that the speed is on its final stage i can imagine they can improve the netcode so they can make some moves faster again.

I get what you guys are saying, but just wondering why some NA players are able to compete with EUs while some blame ping.

Also you do know that the slower the combat is the easier it is for EUs to totally dominate higher pings ? The quicker the combat the less time a EU will have to parry. But atleast with a fast paced combat you have the option of being aggressive.

Just like you cant play the parry game vs EUs, my latency group cant play the parry game vs lower ping players. But thats only because of no forced animation on actions, if they fixed broken animations then most issues would go away.

But fact is the ping/network issue you bring up here is just an issue for some NAs since some has not had the same problem, theres NAs you have to hide your charge in order to not be parried.
So to me it sounds like some NAs magically manage to parry EUs consistently while some cant, not sure how to fix that in any way shape or form.

 

[Rolufe]

Yes theres too little organic and dynamic fighting being done.

Then again imo the reason why kiting is not tested is because of how easy it is to kite and how time consuming it is to chase down a fleeing player.

Its too easy to be defensive and get rid of 90% of incoming damage in a kite, theres no way to consistently get around parries.
We did allow as much kiting in group fights for a short time but it made the fights take forever so we pretty much limited kiting area or simply called for a refight if it dragged on.

It doesnt help much that development goes against the obvious result that kiting is far too easy atm, but we dont have magic or mounteds so theres really no point in testing it until those are in.

I feel most of the testers agree combat is too easy and TTK is too long and generally things are to slow, even though this is the case development consistently work against that by making things easier and easier and slower and slower.

This is reflected by the fact that activity is only good at patch day and group fight nights. If combat is dull and boring, activity will not be there.

There is no increased stam drain on low HP like it was in MO1 and this seems to be a big issue when it comes to the drawn out kiting.

It's strange that the test of the combat system goes without mounts and without magic. In fact, with their introduction into the game, the battle will radically change and all the mechanics will have to be rebalanced in a new way.

Magic and mounted is much easier to balance to the foot combat system than the other way around. With the slower movement speed, combat now have a feeling of range. Ranged weapons like bows and magic might be able to get more damage done, before you reach them. Depends on if you even get enough time to cast one more spell or shoot another arrow.

Mounted are as always having speed advantage on foot so if your solo on foot or to spread out you will get easily picked off by mounted. If you form a circle with shields/spears you can easily hold of mounteds and take very minor damage. This was the case in MO1 even before the nerfs and when EQ didnt dismount and hit for 80s(got nerfed to 60s). Assuming there wont be anymore changes to mounted players in MO2, it will be somewhat similar. Mounteds might need some buffing to be honest. They got so many nerfs after the EQ change. They where however still viable in their intended areas of combat, but had to increase gear cost to easily dismount other mounteds. I cant speak of how elementalism changed mounted as i have barely seen it in use.

So to sum this up i think there will not be any massive difference in the combat from how it was in MO1, but that players will be stay together more and a lot due to the foot movement speed being lowered and map being bigger(more important to stay alive). I would expect mounted would get a similar movement speed decrease as it makes the game look and feel better, less teleporting. I would like to see mounted and magic how it looks and feels and if it got bugs that needs fixing, but i dont think it will change much in combat balance.

Never meant to type this much... Sorry.