Pets Are Too Strong.

[Sally]

Pets can literally be better than an entire player.

"But my thursar can life steal blah blah blah!!!"

Right, that takes care of the pet, not the mage blasting you with magic whilst you focus on their pet.

"Then i'll just LoS with the pet!"

Then they pull the pet away and now you're at range against a mage, exposed. You're fat and slow. You die.

Also. Not everyone is a thursar footfighter (which isn't a hard counter anyway regardless).

"But MA can kill pets blah blah!"

No. Arrows do tiny damage and you can literally outheal them. Try killing someone with a molva from horseback whilst they're healing it. Have you actually aimed off the back of your horse with MA? If you have, you'll know it is janky as you can only look out one side, and you trade off knowing your trajectory. Meanwhile they can tactically pull their pet back and forth and heal it. Maybe if you're using a weak pet like a wolf or something which i'm OBVIOUSLY not talking about here.

"Just attack the tamer!!"

The tamer who could just be hiding behind a tree or in a bush somewhere. The tamer that can run at the highest speed possible. Sure. Whilst you're doing that, the pet is eating you. You can't escape it because it is faster than you.

Attack tamer? Tamer runs. Pet kills you. Attack pet? Tamer hits you with magic and heals pet. There is no disadvantage.

I don't want to hear this "This one specific race and build can kill a pet!!!". This is utter nonsense. A thursar is useless against a tamer, why? Because the tamer is faster, and can pull their pet away at any time. Thursar chases tamer? Set pet on thursar. Thursar chases pet, heal pet OR pull pet away and magic damage thursar.

Easy. No weaknesses at all. All bases covered.

A tamer is NOT just a pet. It is a pet and a whole player on top of that.

Tamers are basically two players in one, essentially. This is unfair.

I don't care how much it costs, or the time it takes. If they have the option to essentially have two people in one, then i want arrows that give me something that equals that. Where are my options? Why can't i spend a lot of gold on expensive arrows that are equal to a second player?

Tamers use this argument that the cost excuses the overpowered nature of pets. Okay, then where is my alternative? Why do i not have OP arrows?

That cost is an OPTION. It is a benefit. Other classes don't have these kinds of options, you do. It is an advantage. A positive.

So... You have your pet for killing people with low armor.. But you're also a mage so you can kill people in armor. So your pet covers your disadvantage, and you cover your pet's disadvantage. Where is the weakness?

If your answer is "cost" or "time", then i refer to what i said above. Where is my alternative? It is not fair.

If they are going to be as strong as they are, other classes need to have something equal to that.

OR

Make pets easier to get, easier to level, and nerf them so they aren't so broken.

----------

One last thing... Someone said "pets are weak in group fights! They get focused".

Okay.. So let me prove to you why tamers are actually BETTER in team fights than every other class.

Who wins :

50 footies vs 50 tamers with campodons (or some other OP pet).

People who say "footies would win!!".. You're delusional.

Why do footies have no chance? Because there is limited space around a target for melee players. But magic takes up no space. The tamers could just focus heals on the pet being focused and it will out heal the damage dealt. The heals will be higher than the damage, why? Because not every melee can get a space to hit the pet. There is no limit to the 50 tamers healing one campo.

Point being. Tamers are better solo, and better in a group. They simply add up to more than every other playstyle, and it is absurd.

 

[MolagAmur]

Most people will agree with you. But Henrik loves his tamers...and iirc was a tamer himself in UO. Pets became broken back in MO1 with the necromancy patch, and its been that way ever since. We've had tons of threads like these, but its falling on deaf ears my friend.

At least they aren't as broken as MO1...so there's a little positivity for you.

 

[CherryKush]

Should be able to throw some scooby snacks on the ground to deter the pet or something for a time, that'd be a nice CC counter, you'd just have to remember to always have them on you.

 

[Xenom]

Atrophy works like a charm. In general an MA will destroy a tamer no idea what you are talking about here. Most MA have some magic, use corrupt maybe? But that they can outheal an MA damage is just wrong. There is counters but you need to use em.

Pets might be a benefit sure in a 1v1 situation I give you that but as you never should balance around 1v1 in mmos why bring it up?

Pets also die so quick to melees. It's like a handful of hits and pets don't do much vs somewhat decent armor and are easy to parry. Also show me how easy you hit the melee as a tamer mage that is circling your pet and mostly so close or in the pet that you cannot hit em.

Sry but there is way less issues with pets than you make up here

 

[Rahz]

Some pets, Campodons in particular, are OP, no doubt about it.... of course, again, especially if you clad them in plate armor. There should be some specialized roles for pets. Campodons should be slow,so slow that you can outrun them, dont do that much damage and should be able to tow manganons on a cart or something. Molvas same thing but a little faster, more of a Semi to get a lot of stuff around.
Bears imo have an unrealistic amount of HP (black bear 621hp, brown bear 743HP and White Bear 910 HP.
Mages dont have the mana to kill themand when clad in heavy armor noone else has the time for it.
Also a Taur Dog is A LOT bigger than a black bear, bigger than a brown bear but has a kinda more realistic hp pool of 455hp. This should be about the HP of a big battle pet that you send off to battle. Direwolves are kinda okay i think, dont hit that hard, can be killed easily but you can field two of them. Terror Birds are waaaay too big, too fast and also have 612 HP, its a chicken...
I use pets, usually my Taur Dog that is slower than any horse and will only be OP if clad in Heavy Armor.
So to balance pets: Lower dmg and speed of campodon, lower the HP of Molvas a bit, lower the HP of bears by A LOT..a molva is a much more massive animal, a white bear having the same amount of HP is just stupid, lower it to about 500HP for BB/600HP for WB and it should be cool.
Black bears are tiny teddies in comparison, 350hp to 400 MAX and lower the PPs for all i care. Lower TBird Speed, HP and Size, lower Lynx HP (332hp and just marginally bigger than my house cat xD) and for the love of God NERF HEAVY ARMOR. Its again part of the problem. Part of most or even every single balance problem in fact. Pets need specialized roles and not just be a tank that outruns everyone. I dont thnk anyone at starvault has any idea about basic game design/ game theory and they are just making up random HP numbers and call it a day. Enroll into university and take a class in basic game design, youll find it in the (dreaded) Math-category. Its really basic and if you go to Jonköping "university" they wont even bother you with actual theoretical math since its just a glorified business school/college, so no hard math there.
But a MA getting hit by a mage in any situation is still a skill issue. You outrange them and you outrun the dangerous pets. Just run, you dont need to win every fight, as a mage getting away alone is considered a win.

 

[Jackdstripper]

As per usual, the latest fotm patch from SV comes with the latest fotm OP shit. They just introduced pet armour and hold and behold pets are stupid OP.
They do this with every single new feature they implement. Its always half baked and stupid OP. Just wait a year and it will be nerfed into the ground…..just in time for rhe next new OP thing coming down the pipe.
Never cahnges.

 

[Tiroides]

Pets are easy to parry and without any backup, they are no threat, regardless of the build.

In group fights, pets drop like flies regardless of their hp pool or armor. And now you have a mage/archer/warrior with 300 to 500 skill points idling in his character sheet.

If they are going to be as strong as they are, other classes need to have something equal to that.

Footies with good armor can even trade hits against most of the pets.

That cost is an OPTION. It is a benefit. Other classes don't have these kinds of options, you do. It is an advantage. A positive.

Again, other classes can invest in their gear and outshine any pet / tamer.

I do not see any balance issue with the pets.

 

[Sally]

Pets are easy to parry and without any backup, they are no threat, regardless of the build.

In group fights, pets drop like flies regardless of their hp pool or armor. And now you have a mage/archer/warrior with 300 to 500 skill points idling in his character sheet.



Footies with good armor can even trade hits against most of the pets.




Again, other classes can invest in their gear and outshine any pet / tamer.

I do not see any balance issue with the pets.

You are delusional. Like, seriously delusional.

You clearly have no idea how broken tamers are when you're on the receiving end. If you do? You're being wilfully ignorant.

"Pets are easy to parry".

GREAT! But what about the magic you're taking in the back whilst you're being attacked by the pet. I covered it already. The pet/tamer duo cover eachother's weaknesses, they have no weakness.

I also already covered the group fight argument. Tamers are better in group fights also.

Lastly. "Gear can outshine any pet". Err RIGHT, except it is not JUST the pet is it? You're fighting a tamer also, on top of a pet that is as strong as a player. Did you even read the post?

 

[Tiroides]

GREAT! But what about the magic you're taking in the back whilst you're being attacked by the pet. I covered it already. The pet/tamer duo cover eachother's weaknesses, they have no weakness.

I would like to know what specific situations are you referring to when you claim having covered all the cases.

For example, a tamer with a level 125 campodon against a warrior with bone tissue armor and flak weapon would certainly feel unbalanced. A level 50 bear against a warrior in steel would seem underpowered. Most of the level 125 pets deal dismal damages to footies with good armor.

Pets also die so quick to melees. It's like a handful of hits and pets don't do much vs somewhat decent armor and are easy to parry. Also show me how easy you hit the melee as a tamer mage that is circling your pet and mostly so close or in the pet that you cannot hit em.

I do agree with this statement.

 

[Rhias]

I feel with you. It rages me every time I solo roam and some random tamer with 2 direwolves and a bear just snacks me.
The main argument (which is somewhat true) is that as soon as you reach a certain gear level (e.g. Steel armor) "normal" pets don't deal that much damage anymore and you can simply kill them.
But everything below that armor threshold (that is not mounted) is basically free kill in an 1 vs 1.

And now as a solo roamer you basically got 2 options: Wear steel armor (and loose it frequently because you mostly die 1 vs X) or play a beastmaster yourself. What counters a beastmaster Veela? Right, a beastmaster Thursar.

In group fights pets are IMHO okay because they can be focused down. But they are just broken in 1 vs 1.
And now the argument "should a MMO be focused on a balanced 1 vs 1?" starts.
As a player who played several MMOs mostly solo I would say 1 vs 1 balance and also 1 vs X balance is really important.
Eve Online found a really nice balance with their stealth class ships. In MO that balance IMHO does not exist and I've decided it's not worth it and moved on to other things that are more fun and wait if SV decides to do something about it.

 

[Tiroides]

And now as a solo roamer you basically got 2 options: Wear steel armor (and loose it frequently because you mostly die 1 vs X) or play a beastmaster yourself

A good pet is more expensive than a full set of steel armor. Against weaker pets you dont need steel. 1 vs X is more expensive for the tamer in this scenario.

It rages me every time I solo roam and some random tamer with 2 direwolves and a bear just snacks me.

I do agree that herding could use some work.

 

[Sally]

I would like to know what specific situations are you referring to when you claim having covered all the cases.

For example, a tamer with a level 125 campodon against a warrior with bone tissue armor and flak weapon would certainly feel unbalanced. A level 50 bear against a warrior in steel would seem underpowered. Most of the level 125 pets deal dismal damages to footies with good armor.



I do agree with this statement.

I don't think you understand where the real brokenness of a pet comes from.

It isn't just that it can be as strong as a player, it is also that it splits the opponent's focus. In a game like this, this is a HUGE benefit.

So whilst you're fighting their pet, the tamer themselves can be free to do whatever they want. It really is like fighting two people at once.

If you're a tamer and you're just standing there watching your pet fight, then sure, it is a player versus a pet. But this isn't the dynamic we most often come across ingame.

The vast majority of the time, the pet is just a means to obscure the actions of the tamer. Armor means nothing to magic, and most tamers will be using magic. Mage tamer covers all bases. For steel armor? They have magic. For low armor types? They have their pet (and their magic).

It is not balanced in the slightest.

 

[Sally]

Atrophy works like a charm. In general an MA will destroy a tamer no idea what you are talking about here. Most MA have some magic, use corrupt maybe? But that they can outheal an MA damage is just wrong. There is counters but you need to use em.

Pets might be a benefit sure in a 1v1 situation I give you that but as you never should balance around 1v1 in mmos why bring it up?

Pets also die so quick to melees. It's like a handful of hits and pets don't do much vs somewhat decent armor and are easy to parry. Also show me how easy you hit the melee as a tamer mage that is circling your pet and mostly so close or in the pet that you cannot hit em.

Sry but there is way less issues with pets than you make up here

I'm sorry, no.. You're not killing a steel plated bear with MA whilst they're healing it. Maybe if you have a group of MA, but solo? No. They can move it around. They can ride it, they can heal it. You'd have to land only headshots over and over and they'd have to weakspot pretty much the entire time to even have a CHANCE.

Go and kill a steel plated molva on a horse. Whilst the tamer probably also has MA or MM. It isn't going to happen. All of these arguments just factor out the tamer and measure ONLY the pet. It is NOT only the pet. The pet is half of the problem. It is the pet AND the tamer together where it breaks.

See, you're probably talking about trash pets. Nobody is talking about trashy beginner pets. We're talking about the OP endgame pets.

 

[ElPerro]

I feel with you. It rages me every time I solo roam and some random tamer with 2 direwolves and a bear just snacks me.
The main argument (which is somewhat true) is that as soon as you reach a certain gear level (e.g. Steel armor) "normal" pets don't deal that much damage anymore and you can simply kill them.
But everything below that armor threshold (that is not mounted) is basically free kill in an 1 vs 1.

And now as a solo roamer you basically got 2 options: Wear steel armor (and loose it frequently because you mostly die 1 vs X) or play a beastmaster yourself. What counters a beastmaster Veela? Right, a beastmaster Thursar.

In group fights pets are IMHO okay because they can be focused down. But they are just broken in 1 vs 1.
And now the argument "should a MMO be focused on a balanced 1 vs 1?" starts.
As a player who played several MMOs mostly solo I would say 1 vs 1 balance and also 1 vs X balance is really important.
Eve Online found a really nice balance with their stealth class ships. In MO that balance IMHO does not exist and I've decided it's not worth it and moved on to other things that are more fun and wait if SV decides to do something about it.

The fact that some pets can straight up outrun a veela, even with clades on, is just bullshit. It basically kills any chance of solo or small scale pvp whenever a tamer shows up. And who tf is gonna run around with steel armor solo, unless you RMT or farm all day.

A good pet is more expensive than a full set of steel armor. Against weaker pets you dont need steel. 1 vs X is more expensive for the tamer in this scenario.



I do agree that herding could use some work.

The difference is, a player has to actually use the steel armor, a tamer can just press a button and the pet will auto attack.

 

[Rhias]

A good pet is more expensive than a full set of steel armor. Against weaker pets you dont need steel. 1 vs X is more expensive for the tamer in this scenario.



I do agree that herding could use some work.

Sure, a good pet is expensive. And my point isn't that a steel set is cheaper than a good pet and therefore it's unfair.
My point is that if you want to solo roam and just enjoy the fighting you want something thats cheap to replace because you will die a lot.
Since the fun part is the fighting, and not the grinding to get gear. PVE in Mortal is IMHO the most boring PVE I ever experienced in any MMO. And I don't want to even start of mining rocks for hours...

So if there is a fighter in steel armor which is too hard for me because he might have more skill than I do and for sure has more gear I can try to evade the fight. E.g. try to outrun/outstam him, damage his mount that he retreats to heal back his horse and hide somewhere in the meanwhile,...
But what am I supposed to do when 2 dire wolves and a bear chase me? I can't outrun them. I can't fight them. I can't hide. They follow me everywhere. I'm just dead.
And I don't want to even start with what happens if you roam with a non heavy armor build e.g. a foot mage/dagger mage with light armor.

So it feels like there is a minimum gear level that is required to withstand against pets. There is no other playstyle in MO that imposes such a minimum gear level. You've naked and a mounted archer chases you? Bad chances for you but if you're lucky and manage to hid in some bush you might get away. You've naked and some meele fighter attacks you? Bad chances again but if you're good at parrying you might survive it, get away, or even kill the player.
You're naked and a beastmaster attacks you? It's over once he manages to get you into the crosshair and clicks on "attack". At least if it's several pets at once and you basically got no chance at parrying all directions at once...

 

[Emdash]

"But MA can kill pets blah blah!"

I bet you could body a campo or a molva as MA, from really far away, if it was just you shooting them and someone trying to heal it, but there is another problem w/ pets... which is the smaller ones like wolves are actually kinda hard to hit. Eventually dude is gonna not be able to heal his big pet anymore, and maybe someone else will come, but I'd honestly rather grief someone w/ a terror bird or big pet than try to clean up a couple little pets.

It really depends on what else is going on, tho, of course.

@ in steel, well if molvas can wear steel armor, that's tough, but jotuns in steel are pretty tough, too haha. That's an armor issue. Molva should arguably not be a combat pet. SV derpin with the rideable combat pet thing. Molvas have been OP as pets for years. Esp in PvE some of the molvas I would breed were just disgusting at farming anything.

Armoring a molva or campo in steel is another face palm design choice. If they were like that, they should move like freaking turtles. Turtles are super strong combat pets, too, but they have movement limitations. If other pets had a downside like that, it would work out.

Like you could start w/ something as simple as IF a small pet is hit it has to be retargeted and go from there. There are a million ideas you can use. But the fact that it's just like RELEASE THE HOUNDS and the pets finish you is really sad, no matter what your build is, unless you can tank them and kill them.

Pet stam is also very essential. Pets are mainly a grief option toward solos haha. That's why they aren't nerfed. That's why if I play again for my month, I am gonna rampage the pets of anyone who I am not cool with.

 

[Sally]

I bet you could body a campo or a molva as MA, from really far away, if it was just you shooting them and someone trying to heal it, but there is another problem w/ pets... which is the smaller ones like wolves are actually kinda hard to hit. Eventually dude is gonna not be able to heal his big pet anymore, and maybe someone else will come, but I'd honestly rather grief someone w/ a terror bird or big pet than try to clean up a couple little pets.

It really depends on what else is going on, tho, of course.

@ in steel, well if molvas can wear steel armor, that's tough, but jotuns in steel are pretty tough, too haha. That's an armor issue. Molva should arguably not be a combat pet. SV derpin with the rideable combat pet thing. Molvas have been OP as pets for years. Esp in PvE some of the molvas I would breed were just disgusting at farming anything.

Armoring a molva or campo in steel is another face palm design choice. If they were like that, they should move like freaking turtles. Turtles are super strong combat pets, too, but they have movement limitations. If other pets had a downside like that, it would work out.

Like you could start w/ something as simple as IF a small pet is hit it has to be retargeted and go from there. There are a million ideas you can use. But the fact that it's just like RELEASE THE HOUNDS and the pets finish you is really sad, no matter what your build is, unless you can tank them and kill them.

Pet stam is also very essential. Pets are mainly a grief option toward solos haha. That's why they aren't nerfed. That's why if I play again for my month, I am gonna rampage the pets of anyone who I am not cool with.

If they just stood there and tried to heal it, sure, it would eventually die because they'd run out of mana. But we all know that in most scenarios, a tamer is probably going to try and dismount you whilst you're shooting their pet. Horses are also very easy to kill too. If say, it was an arcane archer? Then they're also on the clock as their mana will run out too, eventually.

But yes, i agree. If pets had limitations to balance them, instead of just being a hard upgrade from lower level pets, that would be better. It should be about choosing the right pet for the situation. A tamer should have to actually think.

 

[Xenom]

I'm sorry, no.. You're not killing a steel plated bear with MA whilst they're healing it. Maybe if you have a group of MA, but solo? No. They can move it around. They can ride it, they can heal it. You'd have to land only headshots over and over and they'd have to weakspot pretty much the entire time to even have a CHANCE.

Go and kill a steel plated molva on a horse. Whilst the tamer probably also has MA or MM. It isn't going to happen. All of these arguments just factor out the tamer and measure ONLY the pet. It is NOT only the pet. The pet is half of the problem. It is the pet AND the tamer together where it breaks.

See, you're probably talking about trash pets. Nobody is talking about trashy beginner pets. We're talking about the OP endgame pets.

this all sounds a bit like you want to kill pets in steel with just a bow and a horse if you engage someone on a molva in steel you can outrun him and kill the one sitting on top and kill the molva afterwards, problem solved. pets are all but useless in so many cases and there is no valid reason from you so far sorry.

 

[MolagAmur]

Pets are easy to parry and without any backup, they are no threat, regardless of the build.

In group fights, pets drop like flies regardless of their hp pool or armor. And now you have a mage/archer/warrior with 300 to 500 skill points idling in his character sheet.



Footies with good armor can even trade hits against most of the pets.




Again, other classes can invest in their gear and outshine any pet / tamer.

I do not see any balance issue with the pets.

Holy fuckin biased. Tamer main confirmed.

 

[Sally]

this all sounds a bit like you want to kill pets in steel with just a bow and a horse if you engage someone on a molva in steel you can outrun him and kill the one sitting on top and kill the molva afterwards, problem solved. pets are all but useless in so many cases and there is no valid reason from you so far sorry.

Lol.. Kill the one on top.. Who can either heal themselves or also kill your mount, which has less HP because you're on a horse if you're not a tamer.

No matter which way you slice it, they always have the upperhand unless you choose to be wilfully ignorant of what they're capable of. You think MA is broken? (It isn't btw, it is only broken when you add magic) Tamers can be MA too. What then?

They are broken. You are in denial if you say otherwise.